Why do people keep saying monks are underpowered?


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LoreKeeper wrote:

So... why has nobody pointed out to Marthkus that a monk gets pounce too?

In the form of Tiger Pounce. The "pounce" isn't as far as a charge, but on the other hand it is much more versatile about what you can do in conjunction with the "pounce" (other than moving around corners).

Mostly because it's a 4 feat investment none of which can be taken as monk bonus feats and it's not true pounce if you face anything with move above 30 it doesn't work and it doesn't work in the first round, or against any new creature. It's more like pounce-light it's still good but has it's own penalties.

EDIT: Because you asked for it again even though it was on page 16 here was my barbarian build from page 16 again

Bob the Barbarian revenge of Bob:
Bob - Race Human Class Barbarian no archetype although he was originally a invuln. rager and would do better as such.
Base stats - Str 22(+2 race +2 levels+2 enh), Dex 12, Con 18(+2 enh.), Int 10, Wis 14(+2 enh.), Cha 7. Raging 26, 12, 24, 10, 14, 7.

Feats in order from 1 to 9 - Power Attack, Furious Focus(Bonus), Raging Vitality, Extra Rage Power(Animal Fury), Extra Rage Power Superstitious, Improved Critical(Falchion).

Rage Powers - Lesser Beast totem 2x claws, Animal Fury 1 1d4 bite, Superstition +4 morale bonus to saves vs spells Su abilities or SLAs, Reckless Abandon, Ghost Rager, Greater Beast Totem.

Weapons - +1 Furious Silversheen Falchion, Trident, Cold Iron Warhammer, Composite Longbow Str rating 5.

Armor +2 Breastplate

Items - Jingasa of Fortunate soldier, Dust Rose Ioun Stone, +1 Ring of Prot., +1 Amulet of Nat. Armor, Belt of Physical Might(Str,Con), Feather Step Slippers, Headband of Wis +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, +6k extra I think.

To hit is at +21,+16 for the Falchion, +13 Bite, +13,+13 Claws.
Damage per hit should be 2d4+15 , 1d4+4, 1d6+8/1d6+8
Power attack can go -3/+9 on top of that if you like, Crits on a 15+, and Reckless abandon can go +3 hit/-3 AC if you need to.

HP is Hovering around 150 while raging

AC however is only at 25 and can go as low as 20 if he takes all the penalties from rage and Reckless Abandon which is his real weak point.

Saves while raging hover around - Fort 16, Ref 6, Will 9 with them going up to 20,10,11 against spells.


MrSin wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
No? You post a paladin. Try to make one that is worse than a monk without dumping strength or cha.
Worse? Seems a stupid goal with silly criteria, but ok

Because that's the nice thing to do? The upside is I still prefer the paladins class features to the monk. Only bad thing about a paladin is its code of conduct.

Edit: that paladin hits more often and has more BAB than the monk. He also happens to be immune to several effects, has at least okay saves, and can bypass DR by not liking someone. He also has litany of righteousness and can still help the party with spells and his detect evil.

I am not crazy awesome at math or anything, but doesn't a monks extra attacks technically mean they hit about the same amount as other martials, despite missing more often due to slightly lower bab? I mean are we just assuming the hit less because of their attack bonus but not taking into account their greater number of attacks?


Anburaid wrote:
MrSin wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
No? You post a paladin. Try to make one that is worse than a monk without dumping strength or cha.
Worse? Seems a stupid goal with silly criteria, but ok

Because that's the nice thing to do? The upside is I still prefer the paladins class features to the monk. Only bad thing about a paladin is its code of conduct.

Edit: that paladin hits more often and has more BAB than the monk. He also happens to be immune to several effects, has at least okay saves, and can bypass DR by not liking someone. He also has litany of righteousness and can still help the party with spells and his detect evil.

I am not crazy awesome at math or anything, but doesn't a monks extra attacks technically mean they hit about the same amount as other martials, despite missing more often due to slightly lower bab? I mean are we just assuming the hit less because of their attack bonus but not taking into account their greater number of attacks?

Yeah mostly, but the issue really comes to a head against things with very high AC's or DR where putting out more attacks at a lower bonus can start to hurt you A monk landing 5 hits at 15 damage per hit does 75 damage in a round a Barbarian landing 2 for 32.5 does the same but the monk loses 50 to DR 10/- while the Barbarian would lose 20 that's really the killer point for monks which is why they ought to have better ways to bypass DR in general I think.


LoreKeeper wrote:

So... why has nobody pointed out to Marthkus that a monk gets pounce too?

In the form of Tiger Pounce. The "pounce" isn't as far as a charge, but on the other hand it is much more versatile about what you can do in conjunction with the "pounce" (other than moving around corners).

That's not pounce. That's step-up and full-attack. You know what the barbar's pounce is really good for? Opening up with a full-attack. Even with tiger style the monk has to hit a foe before he can use it.

So a crappy version of pounce at the cost of three feats where two are pretty garbage.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:

To be fair, Dabbler, that build is a DPR-Focused Fighter. Not a very fair comparison.

This build has little to no out-of-combat utility and considerably lower saves.

But better AC and hit points, and I was sacrificing DPR for AC (note the Belt of physical power +2 rather than belt of strength +4 which would be the optimal choice damage-wise). Remember Aranthos's monk may have had better DPR but had worse hp and a base AC 4 points lower, he relied on buffs to improve it. AC expectation for a martial is usually around (15-20)+level before buffs. This fighter also had better ranged attacks.

In other words, I have a fighter that can last longer, is more effective on a single strike, and more effective against higher AC, more effective at range. He has advantages the DPR focussed monk could not match, while that monk had slightly better out of combat utility. Fighter's don't have out-of-combat utility, they have in-combat utility.

My problems with the monk came out strongest in boss-fights, where his lower to-hit and lower damage-per-hit left him struggling. So if you look at DPR vs higher ACs you may encounter, the DPR may tell a very different story between the two, as the monk isn't matching the +25 to hit on the first attack by a long way.

Nicos wrote:
I think the Quinngong designer was afraid of power creep, I think taht is the reason for Quinggong high level abilities to be lackluster. Afther all a lot of vanilla monk high level abilities really, REALLY sucks.

That seems to be what keeps a lot of things from benefiting the monk...yet they benefit other classes more, and the monk falls further behind. Still, Qingong at least allows you to avoid some of the built in nerfs like Diamond Body and skip the almost-pointless powers like Wholeness of Body and Slow Fall.

Anburaid wrote:
I am not crazy awesome at math or anything, but doesn't a monks extra attacks technically mean they hit about the same amount as other martials, despite missing more often due to slightly lower bab? I mean are we just assuming the hit less because of their attack bonus but not taking into account their greater number of attacks?

That's the theory, as well as the theory that many minor attacks add up to the same damage as one big one. Problem is...

1) lower attack bonus means that against higher AC targets you score far less hits than those other classes.

2) lower damage output means that damage per hit is greatly reduced if you are facing even low DR that you cannot bypass or overcome (again the monk's DR bypass is not good), which also cripples DPR.

3) having to move means your single attack sucks compared to a single heavier attack (and in the monk's case it REALLY sucks as now he's down to 3/4 BAB).

4) the monk's weapon options to flurry with are terrible. The have one mediocre weapon, the temple sword, and the rest are almost universally 1d6 20/x2 save the unarmed strike, which is also poor.

For the 'many attacks' option to genuinely work, you need better odds to hit and a good means to bypass DR before you even start.


Here is my ranger.

ranger:

ranger 10
Human (Varisian) Ranger 10
LE Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +21
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 84 (10d10+20)
Fort +11 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +11, Will +11
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Longsword +15/+10 (1d8+7/19-20/x2) and
. . +1 Longsword +15/+10 (1d8+7/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +6) +13/+8 (1d8+7/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (dragons +2, evil outsiders +6, humans +2)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 7):
3 (1/day) Instant Enemy
2 (2/day) Barkskin, Hunter's Eye
1 (3/day) Lead Blades, Liberating Command, Unbreakable Heart
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +16; CMD 29
Feats Boon Companion, Double Slice, Endurance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sawtooth sabre), Improved Critical (Sawtooth sabre), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +4 (+0 jump), Bluff -1 (+1 vs. dragons, +1 vs. humans, +5 vs. evil outsiders), Climb +11, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +5, Heal +9, Knowledge (nature) +10 (+12 vs. dragons, +12 vs. humans, +16 vs. evil outsiders), Perception +21 (+23 vs. dragons, +23 vs. humans, +27 vs. evil outsiders, +25 while in forest terrain, +23 while in urban terrain), Ride +7, Sense Motive +3 (+5 vs. dragons, +5 vs. humans, +9 vs. evil outsiders), Spellcraft +13, Stealth +12 (+16 while in forest terrain, +14 while in urban terrain), Survival +14 (+16 vs. dragons, +16 vs. humans, +20 vs. evil outsiders, +18 while in forest terrain, +16 while in urban terrain, +19 to track), Swim +11 (+15 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ animal companion link, combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored terrains (forest +4, urban +2), hunter's bonds (animal companion, cheetah), share spells with companion, swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Combat Gear Weapon blanch (adamantine) (5); Other Gear +3 Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +6), +1 Longsword, +1 Longsword, Cold Iron Arrows (50), Silver Arrows (50), Amulet of mighty fists +1, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of giant strength +4, Cloak of resistance +2, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (1 @ 77.52 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, 3871 GP, 5 SP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Dragons +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Dragons).
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders).
Favored Enemy (Humans +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Humans).
Favored Terrain (Forest +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Urban).
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Two-weapon Rend You deal an additional 1d10+(STR*1.5) if you hit with both of your weapons.
Wild Empathy +9 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

[spoiler=Animal Companion]

Animal Companion
Cheetah
N Medium Animal
Init +6; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +16
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 17 (+6 Dex, +7 natural)
hp 58 (+18)
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +6 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 50 ft., sprint (1/hour)
Melee Bite (Cheetah) +13 (1d6+6/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Cheetah) +13 x2 (1d3+6/x2)
Special Attacks trip
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 21, Dex 22, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 27 (31 vs. Trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Iron Will, Multiattack, Skill Focus (Perception), Weapon Focus (Bite), Weapon Focus (Claw)
Tricks Attack [Trick], Attack [Trick], Attack Any Target [Trick], Combat Riding [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Heel [Trick], Flank, Seek [Trick], Stay [Trick]
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+14 jump), Perception +16, Stealth +18 (+22 in Tall Grass) Modifiers +4 stealth in tall grass
Languages
SQ attack any target [trick], combat riding [trick], devotion +4, multiattack / extra attack, flank, seek [trick], stay [trick]
Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +1, You have no money!
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
+4 Stealth in Tall Grass (Ex) You gain a bonus to Stealth Checks under the listed conditions.
Attack Any Target [Trick] The animal will attack any creature on command.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Riding [Trick] The animal has been trained to bear a rider into combat.
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Multiattack / Extra Attack Multiattack or second attack with primary weapon at a -5 penalty.
Other Trick [Trick] (Flank) The animal does something else you've trained it to do.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Seek [Trick] The animal moves into an area and looks around for anything that is obviously alive or animate.
Sprint (1/hour) (Ex) Can move ten times normal speed (500 feet) when you make a charge.
Stay [Trick] The animal will stay where it is.
Trip (Ex) You can make a trip attempt on a successful attack.

Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

Normal DPR TWF 34.16

FA DPR TWF 78.16

Normal DPR 2-handing 20.01

Normal DPR 2-handing PA 23.97

FA DPR 2-handing 41.82

FA DPR 2-handing PA 51.33

--------------------------------
Animal companion DPR 22.84

Animal companion FA DPR 66.62

Likely DPR when not using FA=57

Likely DPR when using FA=144.78

I don't do as much damage as the other ranger, but I might be able to more versatile. I will have to check his build again.


Kimera757 wrote:

This is the newest repost of the archive (weird computer error), we might end up doing a contest in another thread. There's a lot of level 8 and 10 monks, so I'll list both.

PCs should be 8th or 10th level, 20 point buy, and not use archetypes. We currently have a large collection of monks, but there's only been a few competitors so far.

Level 8
Unnamed monk by The Big Dog
Unnamed monk by Tarantula
Unnamed monk by Ciretose
"Monk1", dwarf monk by Wraithstrike
Kondor the Wand Monk by EldonG
Unnamed monk by Dilvias
----

Level 10
----
Unnamed monk by Lorekeeper
Brother Brian by John F
Humphrey by Tarantula
Unnamed monk by Ciretose
Unnamed monk by Artanthos - just the first one (as it's archetype-free)
10th level barbarian by Wraithstrike

10th level ranger by Wraithstrike

I was going to build a paladin or another barbarian more focused on offense, but I have other things I need to do so it wont happen. I will create the thread for testing them in actual combat within the next few hours. If anyone needs more time to make a build let me know.
[spoiler=Monsters already selected by kimera and tarantula a while back]CR 7

aboleth, air elemental (huge), black dragon (young), black pudding, brass dragon (young), bulette, chimera, chuul, dire bear, dracolisk, drider, earth elemental (huge), elasmosaurus, elephant, fire elemental (huge), flesh golem, ghost, greater barghest, hill giant, invisible stalker, lillend, medusa, nymph, remorhaz, shadow demon, shaitan, spectre, stegosaurus, succubus, water elemental (huge)

CR 8

behir, copper dragon (young), dark naga, dire tiger, efreeti, erinyes, giant octopus, giant slug, gorgon, greater shadow, green dragon (young), intellect devourer, mohrg, nabasu, ogre mage, sphinx, stone giant, treant, triceratops

CR 9

air elemental (greater), blue dragon (young), bone devil, bronze dragon (young), dire crocodile, dire shark, dragon turtle, earth elemental (greater), fire elemental (greater), frost giant, giant squid, marid, mastodon, nessian warhound, night hag, roc, spirit naga, tyrannosaurus, vampire, vrock, water elemental (greater)

CR 10

bebilith, brachiosaurus, clay golem, couatl, fire giant, giant flytrap, guardian naga, rakshasa, red dragon (young), silver dragon (young), white dragon (adult)

CR 11

air elemental (elder), barbed devil, black dragon (adult), brass dragon (adult), cauchemar, cloud giant, devourer, earth elemental (elder), fire elemental (elder), gold dragon (young), hezrou, retriever, stone golem, water elemental (elder)

CR 12

copper dragon (adult), green dragon (adult), lich, purple worm, roper, sea serpent

All of the monsters won't be used. The idea is to grab brutes, spellcaster types, ambushers and so to see how each class does against various monsters. That way the chances of "cherry picking" accusation go down since various types of monsters will be listed.

I expect the monk to suffer more against brute types, but I expect it to do better against monsters targeting touch AC, but we will see.


Mikiko
human qinggong monk 10

I've decided I'd try to do a build in a completely different direction. Mikiko is focused on the extremes of dex-based damage. She uses the qinggong archetype, as I think the core monk's position is established well enough now - and for all intents and purposes any monk build that can get the barkskin ki power should do so. Mikiko is all about hitting enemies when they miss her. She has a fairly brutal flurry to draw attention to herself, but her AOOs are every bit as strong as her primary flurry attacks.

str 8
dex 26 = 18 + 2 racial + 2 levels + 4 item
con 12
int 10
wis 14
cha 8

traits - bullied (+1 trait bonus to unarmed attacks for AOOs), mikari rebel (+1 trait bonus to damage for unarmed strikes)

level 1 - toughness (human), dodge (bonus), fast learner
level 2 - combat reflexes (bonus)
level 3 - snake syle
level 4 -
level 5 - weapon focus (unarmed)
level 6 - deflect arrows (bonus)
level 7 - snake sidewind
level 8 -
level 9 - snake fang
level 10 - improved critical (bonus)

equipment: dex +4 (16000), +1 agile amulet (16000), monk robe (13000), deliquescent gloves (8000), ring +1 (2000), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack) (4000), potions of mage armor (2000)

HP 83
AC 33 touch 25 flat 24 4 armor (potion) + 8 dex + 2 wis + 3 monk + 1 deflect + 1 dodge + 4 natural (barkskin ki power)
Fort 8 Ref 15 Will 9

flurry +19/+19/+14/+14 2d6+10+1d6(acid) 10 monk - 2 flurry + 8 dex + 1 magic + 1 feat + 1 ioun
attack of opportunity +19 2d6+10+1d6(acid) 7 bab + 8 dex + 1 magic + 1 feat + 1 ioun + 1 trait
special 7 ki/day

Basic combat DPR
unarmed flurry DPR 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) = 60.885
with ki attack 20.5 * 1.1 * (3 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) = 78.93
with haste and ki attack 20.5 * 1.1 * (4 * 0.85 + 2 * 0.6) = 103.73
AOO DPR 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.8 = 18.04

Fight 1 - Bebilith CR 10, Bestiary page 32
Monster HP 150, AC 22, DR 10/good
Assumes Mikiko and Bebilith go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 10.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 35.81
damage to Mikiko: 0.15 * 1.05 * 16 + 2 * 14 * 1.1 * 0.15 = 7.14
damage from Snake Fang: 3 * 0.85 * 10.5 * 1.1 * 0.9 = 26.51

Total to Mikiko 7.14
Total to Bebilith 62.32
Rounds until Bebilith dies: 2.40
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 17.14

Special:
Odds of landing stun per round (DC 17): 0.9 * 0.05 = 4.5%
Odds of bebilith rot per round (DC 23): 0.15 * 0.7 = 10.5%

Fight 2 - Brachiosaurus CR 10, Bestiary page 83
Monster HP 171, AC 18
Assumes Mikiko and Brachiosaurus go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.85) = 81.18
damage to Mikiko: 0.3 * 1.05 * 33 = 10.40
damage from Snake Fang: 0.7 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.95 = 15.00

Total to Mikiko 10.49
Total to Brachiosaurus 96.18
Rounds until Brachiosaurus dies: 1.78
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 18.67

Fight 3 - Clay Golem CR 10, Bestiary page 159
Monster HP 101, AC 24, DR 10/adamantine and bludgeoning, acid heals golem (so deliquiscent gloves not used)
Assumes Mikiko and Clay Golem go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 7 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) = 20.79
damage to Mikiko: 2 * 0.15 * 1.05 * 18 = 5.67
damage from Snake Fang: 2 * 0.85 * 7 * 1.1 * 0.8 = 10.47

Total to Mikiko 5.67
Total to Clay Golem 31.26
Rounds until Clay Golem dies: 3.23
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 18.31

Fight 4 - Coatl CR 10, Bestiary page 49
Monster HP 126, AC 22
Assumes Mikiko and Coatl go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC
Coatl has an extensive spell list, unfortunately this statistical simulation cannot take this properly into account, so the creature won't perform as well as it should against Mikiko

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 69.91
damage to Mikiko: 0.05 * 1.05 * 11.5 = 0.60
damage from Snake Fang: 0.95 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.9 = 19.28

Total to Mikiko 0.60
Total to Coatl 89.19
Rounds until Coatl dies: 1.41
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 0.85

Fight 5 - Fire Giant CR 10, Bestiary page 148
Monster HP 142, AC 24
Assumes Mikiko and Fire Giant go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) = 60.89
damage to Mikiko: 0.25 * 1.05 * 20.5 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 20.5 = 7.53
damage from Snake Fang: 0.75 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.95 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.8 = 47.81

Total to Mikiko 0.60
Total to Fire Giant 108.7
Rounds until Fire Giant dies: 1.31
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 9.86

Fight 6 - Giant Flytrap CR 10, Bestiary page 134
Monster HP 149, AC 22, resist acid 20
Assumes Mikiko and Giant Flytrap go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 17 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 57.97
damage to Mikiko: 4 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 11.5 = 2.42
damage from Snake Fang: 4 * 0.95 * 17 * 1.1 * 0.9 = 63.95

Total to Mikiko 2.42
Total to Giant Flytrap 121.92
Rounds until Giant Flytrap dies: 1.22
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 2.95

Fight 7 - Guardian Naga CR 10, Bestiary page 212
Monster HP 114, AC 24
Assumes Mikiko and Guardian Naga go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC
Guardian Naga has an extensive spell list, unfortunately this statistical simulation cannot take this properly into account, so the creature won't perform as well as it should against Mikiko

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) = 60.89
damage to Mikiko: 0.05 * 1.05 * 14 = 0.74
damage from Snake Fang: 0.95 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.8 = 17.14

Total to Mikiko 0.74
Total to Guardian Naga 78.03
Rounds until Guardian Naga dies: 1.46
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 1.08

Fight 8 - Rakshasa CR 10, Bestiary page 231
Monster HP 115, AC 25, DR 15/good and piercing
Assumes Mikiko and Rakshasa go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC
Rakshasa has an extensive spell list, unfortunately this statistical simulation cannot take this properly into account, so the creature won't perform as well as it should against Mikiko

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 5.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) = 15.13
damage to Mikiko: 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 6.5 = 0.68
damage from Snake Fang: 2 * 0.95 * 5.5 * 1.1 * 0.75 = 8.62

Total to Mikiko 0.68
Total to Rakshasa 23.75
Rounds until Rakshasa dies: 4.84
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 3.29

Fight 9 - Young Red Dragon CR 10, Bestiary page 98
Monster HP 115, AC 22
Assumes Mikiko and Young Red Dragon go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 69.91
damage to Mikiko: 0.05 * 1.05 * 17 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 11.5 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 6.5 + 0.05 * 1.05 * 14.5 = 3.54
damage from Snake Fang: 6 * 0.95 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.9 = 115.68

Total to Mikiko 3.54
Total to Young Red Dragon 185.59
Rounds until Young Red Dragon dies: 0.62
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 2.19

Fight 10 - Young Silver Dragon CR 10, Bestiary page 110
Monster HP 104, AC 22, immune to acid
Assumes Mikiko and Young Silver Dragon go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 17 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 57.97
damage to Mikiko: 0.05 * 1.05 * 14 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 9.5 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 5.5 + 0.05 * 1.05 * 11.5 = 2.91
damage from Snake Fang: 6 * 0.95 * 17 * 1.1 * 0.9 = 95.93

Total to Mikiko 2.91
Total to Young Silver Dragon 153.9
Rounds until Young Silver Dragon dies: 0.68
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 1.9788

Fight 11 - Adult Silver Dragon CR 10, Bestiary page 110
Monster HP 149, AC 27, immune to acid
Assumes Mikiko and Adult Silver Dragon go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.65 + 2 * 0.4) = 47.36
damage to Mikiko: 0.2 * 1.1 * 17 + 2 * 0.15 * 1.05 * 11.5 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 6.5 + 0.05 * 1.05 * 14.5 = 8.81
damage from Snake Fang: 0.8 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.65 + 0.85 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.65 + 4 * 0.95 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.65 = 79.88

Total to Mikiko 8.81
Total to Adult Silver Dragon 127.24
Rounds until Adult Silver Dragon dies: 1.17
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 10.31

Fight 10 - Young Silver Dragon CR 10, Bestiary page 110
Monster HP 104, AC 22, immune to acid
Assumes Mikiko and Young Silver Dragon go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 17 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 57.97
damage to Mikiko: 0.05 * 1.05 * 14 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 9.5 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 5.5 + 0.05 * 1.05 * 11.5 = 2.91
damage from Snake Fang: 6 * 0.95 * 17 * 1.1 * 0.9 = 95.93

Total to Mikiko 2.91
Total to Young Silver Dragon 153.9
Rounds until Young Silver Dragon dies: 0.68
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 1.9788

Fight 11 - Adult Silver Dragon CR 10, Bestiary page 110
Monster HP 149, AC 27
Assumes Mikiko and Adult Silver Dragon go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.65 + 2 * 0.4) = 47.36
damage to Mikiko: 0.2 * 1.1 * 17 + 2 * 0.15 * 1.05 * 11.5 + 2 * 0.05 * 1.05 * 6.5 + 0.05 * 1.05 * 14.5 = 8.81
damage from Snake Fang: 0.8 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.65 + 0.85 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.65 + 4 * 0.95 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.65 = 79.88

Total to Mikiko 8.81
Total to Adult Silver Dragon 127.24
Rounds until Adult Silver Dragon dies: 1.17
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 10.31

Fight 12 (!Bonus!) - Giant Advanced Dire Tiger, Bestiary page 265
Monster HP 161, AC 22
Assumes Mikiko and Giant Advanced Dire Tiger go toe-to-toe 1v1, all damage is dealt simultaneously (no one goes first), Mikiko has mage armor and barkskin active. Mikiko uses 1 ki each round to add +4 dodge AC
Special: Giant Advanced Dire Tiger may use rakes on all attacks (as if it had pounced)

Damage from 1 round fighting
flurry: 20.5 * 1.1 * (2 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65) = 69.91
damage to Mikiko: 4 * 0.3 * 1.05 * 19 + 0.3 * 1.1 * 21 = 30.87
damage from Snake Fang: 5 * 0.7 * 20.5 * 1.1 * 0.9 = 71.03

Total to Mikiko 30.87
Total to Giant Advanced Dire Tiger 140.94
Rounds until Giant Advanced Dire Tiger dies: 1.14
Damage to Mikiko after fight: 35.19


LoreKeeper I am going to create another thread for that, and the monsters will be expected to fight intelligently if they can. So if the monk, barbarian or ranger is kicking butt in melee the monster will not just sit there and trade blows.

It might not even enter melee if it has a choice. If the monster is a boss fight it might be safe to assume certain buffs are in place also.

For ambush monsters such as Dire Tigers perception matters or they might be getting a free pounce in so you might want to post a full build.


Marthkus wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

So... why has nobody pointed out to Marthkus that a monk gets pounce too?

In the form of Tiger Pounce. The "pounce" isn't as far as a charge, but on the other hand it is much more versatile about what you can do in conjunction with the "pounce" (other than moving around corners).

That's not pounce. That's step-up and full-attack. You know what the barbar's pounce is really good for? Opening up with a full-attack. Even with tiger style the monk has to hit a foe before he can use it.

So a crappy version of pounce at the cost of three feats where two are pretty garbage.

As I said: Tiger Pounce has different strengths and weaknesses.

1. Tiger Pounce can keep "pouncing" against an enemy that keeps dodging the barbarian pounce behind pillars and obstacles. The BBEG might even get some minions to stand in the way of the barbarian's pounce. The monk? No such issues, he just goes after target every round, no matter what.

2. Tiger Pounce is not limited to full-attacking after the "pounce" - the monk could do a dirty trick, cast a spell (with the appropriate gear/build), grapple, and so forth.

Tiger Pounce is vastly more versatile and considerably more consistent. But it has less range and requires to hit the target first. Thinking the one type of pounce is superior to the other is blinding yourself - they both are powerful and have their own strengths.

You know how you can make your barbarian have better combat stats? Get the Tiger Style feat tree. You can even combo the barbarian pounce with the Tiger Pounce.


@wraithstrike, that is fair, but keep in mind that the Dire Tiger's pounce still draws the AOOs from Snake Fang, as Combat Reflexes allow you to use AOOs even when flat-footed.

I agree that "intelligent" enemies should use their skills intelligently - the demonstration is just to show how potent a particular style of monk can be in purely physical combat. I think the build is a solid performer in combat and can keep up with whatever fighters, rangers, barbarians and paladins are doing.

Personally I'd build/play Mikiko not as hard-lined on damage, as her AC and saves can cheaply still be increased by +3 each, while giving up not that much combat potential. This gives Mikiko a well-balanced all-round defense, and still very notable battle presence.


Just because they have similar names, that does not mean they are comparable for purposes of what a player wants.

There was a similar ability in 3.5, but it did not the name pounce anywhere in it.

IIRC it was Rhino Charge.

The point of "pounce" is to get the full attack so you can get mobility and full attack damage in one action.

Getting around a corner to get one attack with a charge is nice, but that is far different in function than what pounce is intended to do.


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@wraithstrike, I've added skills to the build here:

Mikiko & Skills:

Mikiko
human qinggong monk 10

I've decided I'd try to do a build in a completely different direction. Mikiko is focused on the extremes of dex-based damage. She uses the qinggong archetype, as I think the core monk's position is established well enough now - and for all intents and purposes any monk build that can get the barkskin ki power should do so. Mikiko is all about hitting enemies when they miss her. She has a fairly brutal flurry to draw attention to herself, but her AOOs are every bit as strong as her primary flurry attacks.

str 8
dex 26 = 18 + 2 racial + 2 levels + 4 item
con 12
int 10
wis 14
cha 8

traits - bullied (+1 trait bonus to unarmed attacks for AOOs), mikari rebel (+1 trait bonus to damage for unarmed strikes)

level 1 - toughness (human), dodge (bonus), fast learner
level 2 - combat reflexes (bonus)
level 3 - snake syle
level 4 -
level 5 - weapon focus (unarmed)
level 6 - deflect arrows (bonus)
level 7 - snake sidewind
level 8 -
level 9 - snake fang
level 10 - improved critical (bonus)

equipment: dex +4 (16000), +1 agile amulet (16000), monk robe (13000), deliquescent gloves (8000), ring +1 (2000), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack) (4000), potions of mage armor (2000)

primary skills: acrobatics 21(10) jump 43, perception 15(10), sense motive 15(10), stealth 21(10)
secondary skills: climb 7(5), swim 7(5)

HP 83
AC 33 touch 25 flat 24 4 armor (potion) + 8 dex + 2 wis + 3 monk + 1 deflect + 1 dodge + 4 natural (barkskin ki power)
Fort 8 Ref 15 Will 9

flurry +19/+19/+14/+14 2d6+10+1d6(acid) 10 monk - 2 flurry + 8 dex + 1 magic + 1 feat + 1 ioun
attack of opportunity +19 2d6+10+1d6(acid) 7 bab + 8 dex + 1 magic + 1 feat + 1 ioun + 1 trait
special 7 ki/day


wraithstrike wrote:

Just because they have similar names, that does not mean they are comparable for purposes of what a player wants.

There was a similar ability in 3.5, but it did not the name pounce anywhere in it.

IIRC it was Rhino Charge.

The point of "pounce" is to get the full attack so you can get mobility and full attack damage in one action.

Getting around a corner to get one attack with a charge is nice, but that is far different in function than what pounce is intended to do.

Are we talking about Tiger Pounce still? That does give the monk the ability to move (around corners if necessary) and full-attack (flurry).


This is the newest repost of the archive (weird computer error), we might end up doing a contest in another thread. There's a lot of level 8 and 10 monks, so I'll list both.

PCs should be 8th or 10th level, 20 point buy, and not use archetypes. We currently have a large collection of monks, but there's only been a few competitors so far.

Level 8
Unnamed monk by The Big Dog
Unnamed monk by Tarantula
Unnamed monk by Ciretose
"Monk1", dwarf monk by Wraithstrike
Kondor the Wand Monk by EldonG
Unnamed monk by Dilvias
----

Level 10
----
Unnamed monk by Lorekeeper
Brother Brian by John F
Humphrey by Tarantula
Unnamed monk by Ciretose
Dex monk by Lorekeeper
Flaming Fist Monk by the Big Dog
Unnamed monk by Artanthos - just the first one (as it's archetype-free)

Non-Monks
----
Level 10
Grok the Dwarf Barbarian by Wraithstrike
Slyss E Dyss, human ranger by Rynjin
Two TWF rangers by Lemmy, one unarmed
Half-elf ranger by Lemmy (he's really prolific)
TWF fighter by Nicos
Ranger by Wraithstrike

Level ???
Bob the Barbarian by Gnomersy

Monsters
---
List of CR 7 through 9, collected by Tarantula:

CR 7

aboleth, air elemental (huge), black dragon (young), black pudding, brass dragon (young), bulette, chimera, chuul, dire bear, dracolisk, drider, earth elemental (huge), elasmosaurus, elephant, fire elemental (huge), flesh golem, ghost, greater barghest, hill giant, invisible stalker, lillend, medusa, nymph, remorhaz, shadow demon, shaitan, spectre, stegosaurus, succubus, water elemental (huge)

CR 8

behir, copper dragon (young), dark naga, dire tiger, efreeti, erinyes, giant octopus, giant slug, gorgon, greater shadow, green dragon (young), intellect devourer, mohrg, nabasu, ogre mage, sphinx, stone giant, treant, triceratops

CR 9

air elemental (greater), blue dragon (young), bone devil, bronze dragon (young), dire crocodile, dire shark, dragon turtle, earth elemental (greater), fire elemental (greater), frost giant, giant squid, marid, mastodon, nessian warhound, night hag, roc, spirit naga, tyrannosaurus, vampire, vrock, water elemental (greater)

CR 10

bebilith, brachiosaurus, clay golem, couatl, fire giant, giant flytrap, guardian naga, rakshasa, red dragon (young), silver dragon (young), white dragon (adult)

CR 11

air elemental (elder), barbed devil, black dragon (adult), brass dragon (adult), cauchemar, cloud giant, devourer, earth elemental (elder), fire elemental (elder), gold dragon (young), hezrou, retriever, stone golem, water elemental (elder)

CR 12

copper dragon (adult), green dragon (adult), lich, purple worm, roper, sea serpent

About to add new builds, just collecting them...


LoreKeeper wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Just because they have similar names, that does not mean they are comparable for purposes of what a player wants.

There was a similar ability in 3.5, but it did not the name pounce anywhere in it.

IIRC it was Rhino Charge.

The point of "pounce" is to get the full attack so you can get mobility and full attack damage in one action.

Getting around a corner to get one attack with a charge is nice, but that is far different in function than what pounce is intended to do.

Are we talking about Tiger Pounce still? That does give the monk the ability to move (around corners if necessary) and full-attack (flurry).

Idk what wraithstrike is talking about and I don't care.

Tiger stance does not work on foes unless you hit them this turn or the turn before. You can't open with it. That is BAD. It is bad. Tiger stance is only effective against enemies who run away from you (You wouldn't need pounce for them anyways).

Enemy runs away from a barbar and he can still charge and pounce them. The rare situation of hiding behind pillars doesn't come up nearly as often as you think. If a minion gets in the way, the barbar can just pounce and kill him.


LoreKeeper wrote:
Are we talking about Tiger Pounce still? That does give the monk the ability to move (around corners if necessary) and full-attack (flurry).

It does. If they already hit them with an unarmed attack/CMB the last turn. Pounce on the other hand lets you open with a full attack, and lets you full attack even if the foe is more than 10 feet away. Tiger Pounce =/= Pounce, despite the name. I won't deny that its nice to be able to move and flurry, if conditional.


LoreKeeper wrote:

@wraithstrike, that is fair, but keep in mind that the Dire Tiger's pounce still draws the AOOs from Snake Fang, as Combat Reflexes allow you to use AOOs even when flat-footed.

I agree that "intelligent" enemies should use their skills intelligently - the demonstration is just to show how potent a particular style of monk can be in purely physical combat. I think the build is a solid performer in combat and can keep up with whatever fighters, rangers, barbarians and paladins are doing.

Personally I'd build/play Mikiko not as hard-lined on damage, as her AC and saves can cheaply still be increased by +3 each, while giving up not that much combat potential. This gives Mikiko a well-balanced all-round defense, and still very notable battle presence.

Not every monk has Snake Fang though, and with you being flat-footed you are much likely not to be missed since anything that causes you to lost your dex bonus to AC also takes away the monk's wisdom and class based bonus to AC. That tiger likely has a high fort save and wont fail a stunning fist save to stop him from completing his pounce even if he does fail to hit the monk, and gets hit in return.


LoreKeeper wrote:

@wraithstrike, I've added skills to the build here:

** spoiler omitted **

Why do your skills have two sets of numbers?


LoreKeeper wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Just because they have similar names, that does not mean they are comparable for purposes of what a player wants.

There was a similar ability in 3.5, but it did not the name pounce anywhere in it.

IIRC it was Rhino Charge.

The point of "pounce" is to get the full attack so you can get mobility and full attack damage in one action.

Getting around a corner to get one attack with a charge is nice, but that is far different in function than what pounce is intended to do.

Are we talking about Tiger Pounce still? That does give the monk the ability to move (around corners if necessary) and full-attack (flurry).

That is not what Tiger Pounce does.

It allows you to subtract the power attack penalty from your AC instead of your attack roll when once per round you can move as a swift action up to half your speed to attack someone you successfully attacked last round.

The ability says nothing about being able to move and get a full attack in.

Quote:

Tiger Pounce (Combat)

Your unarmed strikes are as precise as they are powerful, but they leave you open and you can pursue foes with blinding speed.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Tiger Claws, Tiger Style, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 8th.

Benefit: While using the Tiger Style feat, you can apply the penalty from Power Attack to your AC instead of attack rolls. Additionally, once per round as a swift action, you can move up to half your speed closer to a target you hit with an unarmed strike or made a successful combat maneuver against on this turn or your last turn.

edit:I see what you mean now, but it is way to conditional.


Kimera757 wrote:

This is the newest repost of the archive (weird computer error), we might end up doing a contest in another thread. There's a lot of level 8 and 10 monks, so I'll list both.

PCs should be 8th or 10th level, 20 point buy, and not use archetypes. We currently have a large collection of monks, but there's only been a few competitors so far.

Level 8
Unnamed monk by The Big Dog
Unnamed monk by Tarantula
Unnamed monk by Ciretose
"Monk1", dwarf monk by Wraithstrike
Kondor the Wand Monk by EldonG
Unnamed monk by Dilvias
----

Level 10
----
Unnamed monk by Lorekeeper
Brother Brian by John F
Humphrey by Tarantula
Unnamed monk by Ciretose
Dex monk by Lorekeeper
Flaming Fist Monk by the Big Dog...

You did not add my ranger.


I did add your ranger, it's just I was adding the builds 1 by 1.

By the way, are you taking over? I'm fine with that, but I just want to be sure.


Marthkus wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Just because they have similar names, that does not mean they are comparable for purposes of what a player wants.

There was a similar ability in 3.5, but it did not the name pounce anywhere in it.

IIRC it was Rhino Charge.

The point of "pounce" is to get the full attack so you can get mobility and full attack damage in one action.

Getting around a corner to get one attack with a charge is nice, but that is far different in function than what pounce is intended to do.

Are we talking about Tiger Pounce still? That does give the monk the ability to move (around corners if necessary) and full-attack (flurry).

Idk what wraithstrike is talking about and I don't care.

Tiger stance does not work on foes unless you hit them this turn or the turn before. You can't open with it. That is BAD. It is bad. Tiger stance is only effective against enemies who run away from you (You wouldn't need pounce for them anyways).

Enemy runs away from a barbar and he can still charge and pounce them. The rare situation of hiding behind pillars doesn't come up nearly as often as you think. If a minion gets in the way, the barbar can just pounce and kill him.

Oh so you take the same stance I do that Tiger Pounce is not that good, and not comparable to "pounce" because they do different things but you don't care what I said. Strange... O.o

Anyway I was saying that Tiger Pounce is only similar to pounce in name only, and names are not valid for comparison. <------TLDR


Marthkus wrote:

Tiger stance does not work on foes unless you hit them this turn or the turn before. You can't open with it. That is BAD. It is bad. Tiger stance is only effective against enemies who run away from you (You wouldn't need pounce for them anyways).

Enemy runs away from a barbar and he can still charge and pounce them. The rare situation of hiding behind pillars doesn't come up nearly as often as you think. If a minion gets in the way, the barbar can just pounce and kill him.

You can't necessarily open with pounce either - more importantly, you can't necessarily pounce the BBEG as your opening act. Who cares if the barbarian can pounce the minion in-between? Mooks are generally intended to make the barbarian pounce at them. Well done, wasted a round, risk the party dying to the BBEG's cunning plans and spells.

The fact is that any smart enemy that isn't build for direct confrontations with the barbarian will make effort to stay out of his way. That means positioning himself where he cannot be charged (i.e. pounced). Whether that is pillars, minions, pits, darkness, fog, mud, blizzards, or whatever. Rarely do you have an arena-style battle where pounces are an always-on option.

And then? What about after round 1? Plenty of enemies (especially bosses) are designed to survive the opening act (mirror images, displacement, illusions, and so forth). Do you really think it all comes down to round 1 pounce, combat over? In the games we play (and Adventure Paths), all meaningful fights tend to be 5 to 15 rounds.


@Kimera757: you're missing Mikiko (my 3rd monk)

@wraithstrike: yes, of course, I realize that Tiger Pounce is not "pounce", just that it has a very similar function (that is to say, it lets the monk do full-round flurries even if the target is not next to him). However, in my play experience, both proper pounce and Tiger Pounce have about equally many times where they are successfully used.


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If an encounter is lasting 15 rounds something has taken a turn for the boring and tedious.


I did notice Mikiko, but she has an archetype. (I included your other builds, as they're following the "goalposts".)


wraithstrike wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

@wraithstrike, I've added skills to the build here:

** spoiler omitted **

Why do your skills have two sets of numbers?

Oh, sorry: the number in brackets indicates ranks in the skill. So Perception 15(10) means a perception of 15 with 10 ranks in the skill. I find it a handy notation.


LoreKeeper wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Tiger stance does not work on foes unless you hit them this turn or the turn before. You can't open with it. That is BAD. It is bad. Tiger stance is only effective against enemies who run away from you (You wouldn't need pounce for them anyways).

Enemy runs away from a barbar and he can still charge and pounce them. The rare situation of hiding behind pillars doesn't come up nearly as often as you think. If a minion gets in the way, the barbar can just pounce and kill him.

You can't necessarily open with pounce either - more importantly, you can't necessarily pounce the BBEG as your opening act. Who cares if the barbarian can pounce the minion in-between? Mooks are generally intended to make the barbarian pounce at them. Well done, wasted a round, risk the party dying to the BBEG's cunning plans and spells.

The fact is that any smart enemy that isn't build for direct confrontations with the barbarian will make effort to stay out of his way. That means positioning himself where he cannot be charged (i.e. pounced). Whether that is pillars, minions, pits, darkness, fog, mud, blizzards, or whatever. Rarely do you have an arena-style battle where pounces are an always-on option.

And then? What about after round 1? Plenty of enemies (especially bosses) are designed to survive the opening act (mirror images, displacement, illusions, and so forth). Do you really think it all comes down to round 1 pounce, combat over? In the games we play (and Adventure Paths), all meaningful fights tend to be 5 to 15 rounds.

That 1 round happens every time the foe your fighting dies. Generally you can't ignore mooks or they kill your casters. So killing any fool that tries to act like a pillar isn't a tactical loss.


Rynjin wrote:
If an encounter is lasting 15 rounds something has taken a turn for the boring and tedious.

Or the fight is so mind-blowingly epic that the bard has to compose a heavy metal ballad dedicated to it's awesomeness.


LoreKeeper wrote:
both proper pounce and Tiger Pounce have about equally many times where they are successfully used.

How so? The barbarian can pounce every round he's raging. Which really should be every round in combat at that point. The monk can only use Tiger Pounce on a foe he's hit with an unarmed strike, which means if the foe is dead and he has to move more than 10 feet to reach the next target, or if he hasn't hit the foe yet anyway, he can't use it. Barbarian Pounce should be used more, because you can use it every round, at least 1 more time because you can use it on round one.

Hitting a mook is not a wasted turn. Dropping a mook one hit would not is more useful than not dropping him imo.

Edit: Also, if the BBEG isn't letting the barbarian pounce, why would he let the monk?


LoreKeeper wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

Tiger stance does not work on foes unless you hit them this turn or the turn before. You can't open with it. That is BAD. It is bad. Tiger stance is only effective against enemies who run away from you (You wouldn't need pounce for them anyways).

Enemy runs away from a barbar and he can still charge and pounce them. The rare situation of hiding behind pillars doesn't come up nearly as often as you think. If a minion gets in the way, the barbar can just pounce and kill him.

You can't necessarily open with pounce either - more importantly, you can't necessarily pounce the BBEG as your opening act. Who cares if the barbarian can pounce the minion in-between? Mooks are generally intended to make the barbarian pounce at them. Well done, wasted a round, risk the party dying to the BBEG's cunning plans and spells.

The fact is that any smart enemy that isn't build for direct confrontations with the barbarian will make effort to stay out of his way. That means positioning himself where he cannot be charged (i.e. pounced). Whether that is pillars, minions, pits, darkness, fog, mud, blizzards, or whatever. Rarely do you have an arena-style battle where pounces are an always-on option.

And then? What about after round 1? Plenty of enemies (especially bosses) are designed to survive the opening act (mirror images, displacement, illusions, and so forth). Do you really think it all comes down to round 1 pounce, combat over? In the games we play (and Adventure Paths), all meaningful fights tend to be 5 to 15 rounds.

The barbarian can't always pounce. That is true, but casters in the party should be helping clear those mooks so he can charge. Fog blocks vision both ways. Casters generally need line of sight so he wont stay in that fog forever.

Not all enemies are casters either, and will mistakenly try to go toe to toe with the barbarian.

Now back to this caster(to include enemies that don't fight in melee) situation. The barbarian most likely wont have an easy time getting to him. If any martial class gets to a caster it is normally the end of the fight so yeah they will try to avoid pounce or any other method of getting a full attack. Pounce also does not have to always be on. It just needs to be on once, because then the barbarian is in his face, and normally by the time the path has cleared he has still taken damage from the other party members. If he somehow survives the pounce he will be in a bad condition. He will probably be stalling in order to reapply defenses. Yeah that included DD'ing to somewhere else in his lair if he has access to it.

15 rounds is a long time. Yeah I have seen it but it was at levels 13 and higher, but even then it was rare.

TLDR:Pounce should not be easy to obtain against a defensive enemy, but the point is that once its available its available, and tiger pounce is more situational for the purpose of full attacks. A withdrawing enemy is very unlikely to be chased down by anyone moving at half speed.


Marthkus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
If an encounter is lasting 15 rounds something has taken a turn for the boring and tedious.
Or the fight is so mind-blowingly epic that the bard has to compose a heavy metal ballad dedicated to it's awesomeness.

Which of those outcomes do you REALLY think is going to be more likely?


MrSin wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:
both proper pounce and Tiger Pounce have about equally many times where they are successfully used.

How so? The barbarian can pounce every round he's raging. Which really should be every round in combat at that point. The monk can only use Tiger Pounce on a foe he's hit with an unarmed strike, which means if the foe is dead and he has to move more than 10 feet to reach the next target, or if he hasn't hit the foe yet anyway, he can't use it. Barbarian Pounce should be used more, because you can use it every round, at least 1 more time because you can use it on round one.

Hitting a mook is not a wasted turn. Dropping a mook one hit would not is more useful than not dropping him imo.

Edit: Also, if the BBEG isn't letting the barbarian pounce, why would he let the monk?

I will add to his. Not all of the BBEG's backups are weak. Some may be pretty strong in their own right so the barbarian dropping them is not a wasted action. I have given my BBEG's healers. Once the party got rid of the person that was healing(not just hit points) the BBEG life got a lot easier.


Rynjin wrote:
If an encounter is lasting 15 rounds something has taken a turn for the boring and tedious.

It may be. Or it may not. It depends on the situation

Jade Regent spoiler:

The group I GM for encountered an adult white dragon out on the high ice; in her lair. It was only 3 of them, and 2 of the 3 actually fell down some 300ft in a chasm to their (presumed) doom. One of the characters managed to barely survive the fall conscious (the other was unconscious but not dead), and she managed to revive her companion and heal both of them to a semblance of health - around 20hp each.

Their 3rd friend, in the mean time, was facing the dragon by himself, in her lair, with no means to escape. He spent all his time running and planning and scheming and using tricks to buy more time. He also happens to be an invulnerable rager with healing rage powers and a massive pool of hitpoints. He managed to last the 13 rounds it took for the other 2 to get back up from the bottom of the chasm, but then dropped (unconscious) as the other 2 managed to re-enter the lair.

He did manage to do okay damage on the dragon, but the other two still had a (predictably hard time). As luck would have it, the paladin managed to get a smiting critical hit on the dragon just in time before a TPK could happen.

All in all around 18 rounds of combat. Edge-of-the-seat stuff and its still a talking point in our group.


wraithstrike wrote:


Not every monk has Snake Fang though, and with you being flat-footed you are much likely not to be missed since anything that causes you to lost your sex bonus to AC also takes away the monk's wisdom and class based bonus to AC. That tiger likely has a high fort save and wont fail a stunning fist save to stop him from completing his pounce even if he does fail to hit the monk, and gets hit in return.

First off, my monk never loses his sex bonus (a-thank you)!

Second, monks retain class bonus to AC and Wis bonus to AC even when flat footed.


Kimera757 wrote:
I did notice Mikiko, but she has an archetype. (I included your other builds, as they're following the "goalposts".)

Ah okay :) - he should still get honorable mention as the monk build that made wraithstrike go "whoa there, slow down cowboy, that monk's battles are way to one-sided. we need to intelligentify this now" (dramatic reenactment)


Rynjin wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
If an encounter is lasting 15 rounds something has taken a turn for the boring and tedious.
Or the fight is so mind-blowingly epic that the bard has to compose a heavy metal ballad dedicated to it's awesomeness.
Which of those outcomes do you REALLY think is going to be more likely?

It is depend of how the encounter was designed.


Wraithstrike in addition to just the combat encounters would it be possible to run the builds against obstacles pulled from adventures of the proper CR range?


LoreKeeper wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
If an encounter is lasting 15 rounds something has taken a turn for the boring and tedious.

It may be. Or it may not. It depends on the situation

** spoiler omitted **

This. Also there is such a thing as having more than one important encounter per day. I mean not in all groups certainly but some DMs won't just let you nova and then throw you softball fights for the rest of the day.


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@Durngrun Stonebreaker: +1

With 26 dex, you better believe Mikiko has a big sex bonus to AC. :D


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


Not every monk has Snake Fang though, and with you being flat-footed you are much likely not to be missed since anything that causes you to lost your sex bonus to AC also takes away the monk's wisdom and class based bonus to AC. That tiger likely has a high fort save and wont fail a stunning fist save to stop him from completing his pounce even if he does fail to hit the monk, and gets hit in return.

First off, my monk never loses his sex bonus (a-thank you)!

Second, monks retain class bonus to AC and Wis bonus to AC even when flat footed.

1. Darn it. I hate typos.

2. You are right. He has to be immobilized or helpless.

His flat footed AC is still only 24 however assuming his barkskin is active. If not then its 20.

His perception is 15, but so is the tiger's stealth unless the tiger is hiding in tall grass so the location matters.

However more than likely the Dire Tiger loses the fight even with the surprise pounce. The best chance the tiger has is to establish a pin, but I dont see the monk's CMB or CMD so I dont know how likely that is.


Average of 4 encounters, average encounter length 3-4 rounds. By the time pounce comes online its 22+con rage. Take it for what you will. Usually if it drags on something is wrong. Personally I think lengthy combat tends to be boring, more so when the focus is on a single person. Same with Roleplaying but with only one guy doing the talking. Of course we could bring up the problems with vancian and x per day abilities, but I think that won't help the conversation much.

So about monks... They're moderately dip friendly. Especially MoMS and getting access to styles. If wanted to wear armor its very nice. Having the chance to take 2 styles and meeting several pre requisites. Loss of BAB, but its kind of lame when your archetype is more attractive for a dip than to actually stick with it.


Talonhawke wrote:
Wraithstrike in addition to just the combat encounters would it be possible to run the builds against obstacles pulled from adventures of the proper CR range?

Sure. None of these are built for social encounters so what type of obstacles would you have in mind?


At one point all your biases about monks were confirmed by anecdote. Now we don't need any more monk threads.


I'd have to see what I can find but anything related to athletics survival stealth acrobatics or perception would be fair game I would think.

Some examples would be the DC to notice an ambush or perhaps the check needed to track someone who has left the party stranded.


redliska wrote:
At one point all your biases about monks were confirmed by anecdote. Now we don't need any more monk threads.

Well with some of these builds it is showing monks are better than I thought. I just have to put in a lot more effort than I would like in order to make them viable, and until the field test takes place I am still not sure how they would work in my games.


Talonhawke wrote:

I'd have to see what I can find but anything related to athletics survival stealth acrobatics or perception would be fair game I would think.

Some examples would be the DC to notice an ambush or perhaps the check needed to track someone who has left the party stranded.

Survival is not that hard to deal with. The others would be interesting to look at when comparing stock monsters also. Can the monk and ranger sneak past certain monsters, and will they be ambushed. There are the types of things we looked at in the other thread with the 13th level monk and barbarian.


By-the-way dragon style is fantastic. Why were people not hyping this up more?

Take all three feats. First attack each round get double strength mod to damage. Flurry attack:(first attack double strength mod to damage, rest 3/2 str mod) It's a flurry of two handed attacks with a weapon that eventually does more base damage than greatsword.

Very nice

Being able to ignore difficult terrain and gaining 15ft cone "punch" (also double str mod to damage) is gravy on top of that.

hmmmmm moving and attacking for 3/4 BAB still sucks pretty hard and the to-hit is too low to really benefit from power-attack (wait a minute PA goes to +3 because of dragon style do too a caveat in the rules).

Any feats that improve to-hit on a charge?
Any feats that add to to-hit rolls aside from weapon focus?

Find those feats and I'll relent on monks having problems.


Dragon Style and Ferocity ARE fantastic.

Speaking from experience, Roar is meh at best, though very cool. I asked to retrain it because it was almost never useful and when it was it wasn't very.

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