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IejirIsk, most adventuring groups I GM or am a member of use the spell Light. Keeps the hands free. Torches are simply to heavy and short lived for most lighting uses.
- Gauss
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The point is one spell is designed for and explicitly says you pick up multiple creatures with it and the others are balanced on and explicitly say they only hit one creature at a time.
Getting sick of pointing out the obvious and banging my head against the wall...
Unlike Flaming Sphere, Aqueous Orb does not stop in the square where it first contacts an opponent. It continues moving through multiple squares. The language is written to make it clear that Aqueous Orb collects additional creatures for each square that is entered.
Standard area rules assume only a single creature occupies any given square. A case that is not true with creatures of size tiny and smaller. Smaller creatures allow more bodies to fit within the flaming sphere's defined area-of-effect.
@Gauss good point. how are the adventurers seeing?
Ioun Torch. 75gp, hands free, lasts forever.
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Swarms are terrible design from a "we want people to have fun playing this game" perspective. What generally happens is that the GM and the wizard end up playing by themselves while everyone else wanders around looking bored, seeing what's on TV or in the fridge, wondering how long it's going to be before they're allowed to participate in the game again. Not to mention that something's just wrong with a world in which a dragon or giant or elemental is easier to defeat than a handful of bats.PCs incapable of contributing against swarms are terrible design from a "we want to have fun playing this game" perspective. What generally happens is that the GM and the wizard end up playing by themselves while everyone else wanders around looking bored, seeing what's on TV or in the fridge, wondering how long it's going to be before their linear builds allow them to participate in the game again. Not to mention that something's just wrong with a PC for whom a dragon or giant or elemental is easier to defeat than a handful of bats.
I should create a few alts only to favorite this a few more times.
A great majority of the poor [insert class name here] posts seem to be from people pigeonholing themselves in a with a very limited build and then crying when the enemy isn't exactly what they want.
well.. did have to have GM pity when the group i am running for went up against a swarm at lvl 2... a very poor level two with no arcanist...
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@Gauss good point. how are the adventurers seeing?Ioun Torch. 75gp, hands free, lasts forever.
When possible throw a little more money at it for e better result:
- get a burned out ioun stone - 25 gp (the price is in Seekers of secrets)- pay for a heightened to level 4 continual flame -7*4*10=280, material component 50 gp., total 330 gp
- for 355 gp, Deeper darkness, meet my 4th level light spell.
As the continual flame spell can be dispelled it is a good idea to have a second one in some container.
Edit: just to be clear, my light source would increase the illumination level in a darkness or deeper darkness spell, not cancel it.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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"If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature..."
I look at it this way: The spell deals damage when it's trigger condition is met, namely "enters a space with a creature." Nothing in the spell states that the trigger condition can only be fulfilled once per round.
So say you have a goblin and a pixie in the same square. The sphere rolls into that square.
Did the sphere enter a space occupied by the goblin?
Yes.
Deal 3d6 to the goblin.
Did the sphere enter a space occupied by the pixie?
Yes.
Deal 3d6 to the pixie.
IekirIsk, any group that cannot handle a swarm at level 1 is not properly equipping themselves. Lamp oil is all that is required, 1 silver piece each. Each character should be carrying at least several Oils, a couple torches, and a couple tindertwigs. That makes a swarm an annoyance.
Note: if you cannot hit the swarm due to it's high touch AC, pour the oil in the square. It is only 1d3 but it will still do the job.
- Gauss
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"If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature..."
I look at it this way: The spell deals damage when it's trigger condition is met, namely "enters a space with a creature." Nothing in the spell states that the trigger condition can only be fulfilled once per round.
So say you have a goblin and a pixie in the same square. The sphere rolls into that square.
Did the sphere enter a space occupied by the goblin?
Yes.
Deal 3d6 to the goblin.Did the sphere enter a space occupied by the pixie?
Yes.
Deal 3d6 to the pixie.
Not only do I agree with this completely...a swarm is counted as one creature, and occupies the same space a FS does. It makes no sense at all that it shouldn't work.
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@Gauss good point. how are the adventurers seeing?Ioun Torch. 75gp, hands free, lasts forever.When possible throw a little more money at it for e better result:
- get a burned out ioun stone - 25 gp (the price is in Seekers of secrets)
- pay for a heightened to level 4 continual flame -7*4*10=280, material component 50 gp., total 330 gp
- for 355 gp, Deeper darkness, meet my 4th level light spell.As the continual flame spell can be dispelled it is a good idea to have a second one in some container.
Edit: just to be clear, my light source would increase the illumination level in a darkness or deeper darkness spell, not cancel it.
My solution was one I apply to my first level characters.
At higher level, many options are available.
Well... point partly missed. and not everyone needs torches and lamps. also incorporeal similar. anyway back to topic:
flaming sphere also deals damage at the start of their turn, iirc?
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Nice necro wak!
But, to the topic of this thread, shouldn't a shotgun or arquebus do 150% damage, even without things like dragons breath shells?
Scatter Weapon Quality: A weapon with the scatter weapon quality can shoot two different types of ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. Cannons with the scatter weapon quality only fire grapeshot, unless their descriptions state otherwise. When a scatter weapon attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes a separate attack roll against each creature within the cone. Each attack roll takes a –2 penalty, and its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not foil a scatter attack. If any of the attack rolls threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that attack roll alone. A firearm that makes a scatter shot misfires only if all of the attack rolls made misfire. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.
No, it is not an area attack, it is an unlimited number of targeted attacks.
A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.
As a scatter weapon is a weapon, a swarm of Fine or Diminutive creatures is totally immune.
But you can go bird swarm hunting.
But you can go bird swarm hunting.I have never got what is the pleasure in hunting birds that weigh 2/3 of an ounce using an ounce of lead.
Some kind of fowl, ok, but what is the interest in hunting the smallest birds?
Sometimes the 2/3oz birds are hunting you and it's a matter of surival.
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The swarm subtype has some major problems. Alchemist fire, acid flasks, etc are in fact weapon attacks. We call them "splash weapons." By RAW, fine or diminutive swarms are immune to them because they're weapons. In the technology guide, there's a plasmathrower (a plasma flamethrower), which by RAW, wouldn't do anything to fine swarms because it too is a weapon attack. Heck, you could even argue that breath weapons wouldn't work on them.
Obviously, nobody plays that way, nor do I know anyone who thinks that is the way the rules are intended, but those are the words written in the books. Personally, I would allow any area attack to function against swarms of any size, regardless of the source of the attack. "Scatter" is an area of effect in my book, it hits everything in a cone (note that the aforementioned plasmathrower is also a scatter weapon), so it would work on swarms.
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The swarm subtype has some major problems. Alchemist fire, acid flasks, etc are in fact weapon attacks. We call them "splash weapons." By RAW, fine or diminutive swarms are immune to them because they're weapons. In the technology guide, there's a plasmathrower (a plasma flamethrower), which by RAW, wouldn't do anything to fine swarms because it too is a weapon attack. Heck, you could even argue that breath weapons wouldn't work on them.
Obviously, nobody plays that way, nor do I know anyone who thinks that is the way the rules are intended, but those are the words written in the books. Personally, I would allow any area attack to function against swarms of any size, regardless of the source of the attack. "Scatter" is an area of effect in my book, it hits everything in a cone (note that the aforementioned plasmathrower is also a scatter weapon), so it would work on swarms.
The differences are:
- the alchemist weapons do energy damage, scattershot do B, and P damage.- scattershot make an attack roll against each creature in the area, alchemist weapons attacks the whole area.
"Scatter" is an area of effect in my book, it hits everything in a cone
No, it doesn't hit everything in the area at all, it makes separate attacks rolls against each creature in the area, with the normal chances of hitting, and missing.
Alchemist fire hit everything in its area of effect. It can miss the target point, but it will still affect everything in its landing point.|
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Scatter is just a weapon special feature, like brace, disarm, reach, etc. One example of a weapon with scatter in pathfinder is a blunderbuss. Another example is a flamethrower. Your ruling that scatter can't hurt swarms means that swarms are immune to flamethrowers.
Energy damage is irrelevant, swarm rules make zero mention of energy damage. They are immune to single target attacks. If small enough, they are immune to weapon attacks. They are vulnerable to area attacks, but that is a separate thing which doesn't override their weapon immunity. So RAW, fine swarms are immune to blunderbusses, flamethrowers, and alchemist fire due to those all being weapons.
and I think that is absurd.
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gnoams, the same trait list for swarms that say that, if made of diminutive or fine creatures, a swarm is immune to weapon damage, says:
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Notice how it lists splash weapons as a "spell or effects". And how it says that they do 150% damage.
Then:
Type: Weapons are classified according to the type of
damage they deal: B for bludgeoning, P for piercing, or S for slashing. Some monsters may be resistant or immune to attacks from certain types of weapons.
So weapons do B, P, or S damage. Do you see any energy damage? I don't.
Energy damage isn't weapon damage, it is an effect, as explained in the swarm type too.A Blunderbuss and a shotgun do weapon damage (B, and P, AFAIK). A flamethrower does energy damage. Fine and diminutive creatures take no damage from a blunderbuss or shotgun, they take full damage from a flamethrower.
And I think that is absurd to say that a weapon that fire a few dozen shots will inconvenience a swarm of between 1,500 to 10,000 creatures.
Swarm rules don't need to have special weapon rules, weapon damage is defined as Slashing, Bludgeoning, and Piercing; energy damage is not weapon damage. A flamethrower still can affect the swarm because it is dealing energy damage: you can "hit" a bug swarm with a blunderbuss, but it is immune to weapon damage; you can hit the same swarm with a flamethrower and it is not immune to the damage. The only thing that is up for debate is whether or not a scatter weapon qualifies for a swarm's "Area of Effect" vulnerability. By RAW it should be no, but there's an easy argument for RAI allowing.