No you can't make him miss the attack. The readied action goes before the action the conditional action which activates it. So, if a melee character runs up to the wizard and is about to attack and he has a readied action to cast dimension door when he is attacked then as the fighter is about to swing the wizard Dimension Doors away. However, if the opposition is an archer or a wizard things go differently. The archer targets you with a ranged attack or the wizard targets you with a ray spell of some sort then you dimension door. Congraulations, you've successfully moved. But the archer didn't actually attack, and the wizard didn't actually cast his spell yet, and they can still do so. Now, so long as they have line of sight/effect they can target you in your new position and can still hit you.
You wizard should prepare some Mirror Image Spells or at least keep a wand of them. Its a low level, but imminently useful spell.
Think of it this way, if a character readies a move action to move when someone targets him with a ranged attack (whether magic or not) do you think they should be able to avoid being targeted by an attack after they move? I should hope not, and the spell dimension door is nothing more than magically moving and avoiding the intervening space between two points.
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I'm not sure I agree that someone triggering a readied action lets you change your mind about the action you were going to perform. I mean, if your readied action triggers off of me casting an offensive spell against you, then after you're done, can I change my mind and cast a buff spell instead? Or cast the same spell but against someone else entirely?
If not, then why do you get to adjust your aim? Or if so, then we've got a weird situation where your readied action was triggered without its trigger condition ever being met. That seems pretty "off".
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As Claxon states, it depends on the type of enemy action. From the "Ready" action: the action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
If there is another valid target to attack, the enemy may complete its action. However, if the player who dimension steps away was the only valid target, the enemy spell/attack would be wasted (or "missed" as you will).
I'm not sure I agree that someone triggering a readied action lets you change your mind about the action you were going to perform. I mean, if your readied action triggers off of me casting an offensive spell against you, then after you're done, can I change my mind and cast a buff spell instead? Or cast the same spell but against someone else entirely?
If not, then why do you get to adjust your aim? Or if so, then we've got a weird situation where your readied action was triggered without its trigger condition ever being met. That seems pretty "off".
I'm not suggesting that you get to change what type of action you were going to do when an readied action is triggered. I'm not saying you can start casting fireball and instead switch to Mirror Image when the readied action happens. I'm saying, it's like you point your bow at the enemy, the enemy being prepared for this moves 30 ft before you ever get your aim totally fixed on him and can take a shot. Then, after he's stopped moving, you re-aim and shoot the bugger anyways. The only way I can see Dimension Door forcing a miss or a waste is with a non-targeted spell, such as a fireball. It affects an area you choose, not a specific creature. You begin to cast fireball and select an area, the readied action goes off moving the creature from the area. You successfully cast fireball and no one is there to be damaged. That's the only way you can force a miss IMO. Otherwise the arrow or the ranged touch attack spell is just reaimed to hit you.
If they can re-aim to shoot at my new location, can they re-aim to shoot at a different target altogether?
If my readied action moves me someplace where they no longer have the ability to even try to shoot me (like behind a full wall), what happens?
If they re-aim to shoot you they can aim at a different target, and with iterative attacks or multiple attacks such as with scorching ray subsequent attacks can be directed towards a different target altogether anyways.
If you readied action moves you someplace where you are no longer a valid target (full cover or out of range, etc) then that particular attack can be reaimed.
I think of it like this, you aim your bow towards the casty and he's freaks out and dimension doors away. But he just moves 30 ft to your left. You see him, standing there stupidly, and shoot him anways. You could have also instead shot the guy 10ft behind him too since you were already aiming that direciton. In fact, you could have shot anyone you have line of effect to within 100ft since you have a longbow. If instead Mr. Casty is smarter than standing out in the open and Dimension Doors himself somewhere you can't see him, you instead shoot the guy behind him in frustration.
A readied action interupts the other characters action and moves their iniative to just before the other characters. Ignoring what the condition of the readied action was, lets just think of this as you suddenly have a turn where you can do one standard action and then the next guy goes with his round.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
An interrupted caster doesn't finish casting the spell until the interruption has been resolved. So, casters at least can salvage their spells, pick a different target or even the intended one if that's still a viable choice. Other means of attacking aren't as clear-cut.
And the basis in the rules for being able to do all that is...?
Because what I'm seeing is a bunch of situations where you trigger a readied action without ever meeting the trigger condition.
Do remember that you're in the Rules forum, not in the Suggestions forum.
I know, and the only thing I have to base this on is that a readied action happens before the action that triggers it. I can see of no reason why that would imply you moronically shoot at the spot where someone used to be when you can see that they clearly aren't.
Imagine this in a real life context, you get ready to aim a ranged attack at someone and they move (doesn't matter how) and you want to hit them. In fact, they're your only target. Do you just shoot the spot where they used to be? This isn't about "dodging" or otherwise avoiding the shot from movement, in fact moving doesn't give you any bonus to AC vs ranged attacks (that I'm aware of, normally). Those values are wrapped up in things like your dodge and dex bonus. But your attacker still makes the attack versus your AC including those bonuses. So the target starts to move, you line up your shot and fire when you think you've got it (probably when they stop moving) and then continue with the rest of your turn.
You think I'm wrong, but lets hear any rules based reason for the converse point of you automiss and loose that attack? I don't know of any relevant such things but will amend my idea if there is something stronger to support the contrary position.
To me its as simple as if the person with the readied action had always been in iniative order before the person interuppted. That person then continues their action just like nothing happened out of turn. Any targets that are viable he can shoot.
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Hi everyone
One of my players, who is playing a conjurer wizard with the dimensional steps ability, asked my about this option:
You are against an enemy spellcaster/archer/etc. Could you ready a use of dimensional steps as an standard action, to teleport yourself away if your opponent fires an offensive spell/arrow, making him miss the attack?
I'd appreciate any idea.
Wait until he figures out the Wall of Force ready trick.
Wait until he figures out the Wall of Force ready trick.
Thats what I'm saying. There are ways to avoid ranged attacks with a readied action, but Dimension Door isn't necessarily one of them (unless you can avoid line of effect). A readied action and casting Wall of Force, Wind Wall, Mirror Image, etc can all work in this situation.
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And the basis in the rules for being able to do all that is...?
Because what I'm seeing is a bunch of situations where you trigger a readied action without ever meeting the trigger condition.
Do remember that you're in the Rules forum, not in the Suggestions forum.
I know, and the only thing I have to base this on is that a readied action happens before the action that triggers it. I can see of no reason why that would imply you moronically shoot at the spot where someone used to be when you can see that they clearly aren't.
Imagine this in a real life context, you get ready to aim a ranged attack at someone and they move (doesn't matter how) and you want to hit them. In fact, they're your only target. Do you just shoot the spot where they used to be? This isn't about "dodging" or otherwise avoiding the shot from movement, in fact moving doesn't give you any bonus to AC vs ranged attacks (that I'm aware of, normally). Those values are wrapped up in things like your dodge and dex bonus. But your attacker still makes the attack versus your AC including those bonuses. So the target starts to move, you line up your shot and fire when you think you've got it (probably when they stop moving) and then continue with the rest of your turn.
You think I'm wrong, but lets hear any rules based reason for the converse point of you automiss and loose that attack? I don't know of any relevant such things but will amend my idea if there is something stronger to support the contrary position.
To me its as simple as if the person with the readied action had always been in iniative order before the person interuppted. That person then continues their action just like nothing happened out of turn. Any targets that are viable he can shoot.
So what if instead of readying for when the archer attacks he readys for after the arrow leaves the bow.
It would seem by your logic that if I could adjust instantly to target someone dim dooring away at the last second then I should be able to adjust my target to adjust for someone dodging out of the way, thus all my targets should not get Dex or Dodge bonuses to their AC.
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Wait until he figures out the Wall of Force ready trick.Thats what I'm saying. There are ways to avoid ranged attacks with a readied action, but Dimension Door isn't necessarily one of them (unless you can avoid line of effect). A readied action and casting Wall of Force, Wind Wall, Mirror Image, etc can all work in this situation.
The Wall of Force trick works better because you protect anyone with it, not just yourself, cause the monster to lose its entire turn and give the party an entire free round of readied attacks against it. Of course, you have to be high enough to cast Wall of Force.
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You think I'm wrong
More like I'm questioning your position to see if I think you're wrong. Aspects of it seem off, so I wanted to see under the hood to see if it holds up.
Things like the rule Forseti cited help with that. Most of what you wrote doesn't, I'm afraid.
So what if instead of readying for when the archer attacks he readys for after the arrow leaves the bow.
It would seem by your logic that if I could adjust instantly to target someone dim dooring away at the last second...
You can't ready an action for that. You have to ready an action for in game actions. Such as, "When he attacks me". I don't think the action of when the arrow has left the bow but before it hits me is a valid action. The process of releasing the arrow from the bow and the arrow hitting (or missing because of AC, miss chance, other magical barriers like Wind Wall) the target all happen simultaneously. It has to happen before the attack.
You think I'm wrongMore like I'm questioning your position to see if I think you're wrong. Aspects of it seem off, so I wanted to see under the hood to see if it holds up.
Things like the rule Forseti cited help with that. Most of what you wrote doesn't, I'm afraid.
Can you be more specific? I've tried to elaborate to provide context to ideas, but the whole thing boils down to:
Readied action moves your turn. You act before the other person and do your thing. Then its the other persons turn, and they can do whatever they are legally allowed to do otherwise. Which includes targeting you even though you moved.
In other words, whats the difference between these scenarios: On your turn you dimension door and move to some position without cover. Then its the archer's turn and he shoots you. Alternatively, you set a readied action for when the archer attacks me and do nothing else. On the arhcers turn he triggers the readied action and now its your turn and you cast dimension door (or just move regularly) to somewhere without cover. Then the archer resumes his turn having taken no aciton, and attacks you. To me they are the same, I can find no reason within the rules to make them different.
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Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.An interrupted caster doesn't finish casting the spell until the interruption has been resolved. So, casters at least can salvage their spells, pick a different target or even the intended one if that's still a viable choice. Other means of attacking aren't as clear-cut.
Actually, that argues that the spell is lost.
You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
So, if the Readied Action is "I cast DD when I am targeted by a spell", then one of two situations occurs.
A) Caster designates target, begins casting. Casting is interrupted, and DD goes off. Caster has already designated a target for their action, so they cannot change their target. If the target is no longer valid to hit, the spell is wasted.
B) Caster casts the spell, and designates the target at the end of casting. DD is triggered when target is designated. Spell is already cast, if target is no longer valid, spell is wasted.
Note that the entire concept of a readied action is that while you interrupt the action, that is only for purposes of resolving actions. Just because a readied action interrupts your action does not mean you get to change your action, you just have to deal with the other action. Then if you're still able (IE: Nothing stops you from completing the action) you complete it. Lack of target prevents the action from completing successfully, and you lose your spell (no valid target). It's like casting Enlarge Person on a fetchling who's in disguise as a human. He's not a valid target, you don't keep the spell, it is cast with no effect. Firing your ray at an invalid target just means you wasted the ray.
The idea you can change your action because someone interrupted it with a readied action is wrong. You have committed to Action A, and you don't get to change it. If you did, you'd have the following situations :
1) I declare a charge against Target X. Target X has a readied action to brace his lance against my charge if I make one. Oh, I see my action is interrupted with a brace action, so I change my charge into pulling a potion and drinking it. I have abused the rules to avoid taking double/triple damage from a braced lance on my charge.
2) White Dragon declare a full attack against Target Y. Target Y has readied an action to activate a Wondrous Item that gives them Fire Body, which means Dragon automatically take Fire Damage from each attack it makes, taking extra damage from each one. Dragon changes to use breath weapon on fire body guy, knowing they take extra damage from cold.
I'm sure you can come up with other ideas, but a readied action should not be allowed to let you change actions because your action was made sub-par or even dangerous to you. That's the whole point of readied actions, to allow you to interrupt and action and make things bad for the person you are interrupting.
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You think I'm wrongMore like I'm questioning your position to see if I think you're wrong. Aspects of it seem off, so I wanted to see under the hood to see if it holds up.
Things like the rule Forseti cited help with that. Most of what you wrote doesn't, I'm afraid.
Can you be more specific? I've tried to elaborate to provide context to ideas, but the whole thing boils down to:
Readied action moves your turn. You act before the other person and do your thing. Then its the other persons turn, and they can do whatever they are legally allowed to do otherwise. Which includes targeting you even though you moved.
Except readying an action doesn't just let you go before the other person it allows you to interrupt their action. Otherwise it would cause a paradox.
I ready for when he shoots his bow, he attacks, my ready goes off before he attacks, he sees he can't shoot me now so he casts a spell instead and now the trigger for my ready action never occurred so none of that could have happened.
To further my refution of Claxon's claims that you can change your action based on someone else's ready action...
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, [b]. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
Note that it doesn't say it interrupts the other person's TURN, which is how Claxon is interpreting it, it interrupts the ACTION. The action is the specific action the triggering person undertook. Then it says he can continue his actions, not his turn. His action is the action he declared that triggered the readied action.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
Again, under Claxon's interpretation, the spell caster could just decide not to cast a spell at all, and instead do something else. That's not what the rules say however, it says the spellcaster then has to deal with the consequences of the attack and make a concentration check.
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
Finally, Claxon's interpretation would completely obviate this paragraph, since the spellcaster could change his spell to some other spell thus negating your counterspell.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready weapons with the brace feature, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
Again, as I showed above, Claxon's interpretation would negate the ability to brace on a charge.
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You can't ready an action for that. You have to ready an action for in game actions. Such as, "When he attacks me". I don't think the action of when the arrow has left the bow but before it hits me is a valid action. The process of releasing the arrow from the bow and the arrow hitting (or missing because of AC, miss chance, other magical barriers like Wind Wall) the target all happen simultaneously. It has to happen before the attack.So what if instead of readying for when the archer attacks he readys for after the arrow leaves the bow.
It would seem by your logic that if I could adjust instantly to target someone dim dooring away at the last second...
How is "an arrow leaving a bow" not an in game action? Please site rules that support you can't do this rather than just saying "I don't think you can."
You can ready a dimension door (or dimension door like effect) to trigger when you are attacked.
The upside is that attack will miss. What is the downside? It sucks up your standard action which could be used doing something useful. If your character is never attacked, your character effectively does nothing for the round. If he is attacked the attack will miss and you will use up one use of the ability that gave the dimension door effect, maybe wasting some of that enemies turn. Smarter enemies will generally fall for this trick once and then proceed to ignore the silly caster that does nothing.
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Can you be more specific? I've tried to elaborate to provide context to ideas, but the whole thing boils down to:
Readied action moves your turn. You act before the other person and do your thing. Then its the other persons turn, and they can do whatever they are legally allowed to do otherwise. Which includes targeting you even though you moved.
In other words, whats the difference between these scenarios: On your turn you dimension door and move to some position without cover. Then its the archer's turn and he shoots you. Alternatively, you set a readied action for when the archer attacks me and do nothing else. On the arhcers turn he triggers the readied action and now its your turn and you cast dimension door (or just move regularly) to somewhere without cover. Then the archer resumes his turn having taken no aciton, and attacks you. To me they are the same, I can find no reason within the rules to make them different.
For instance, you seem to assert that there's no functional difference between (A) delaying until right before the enemy's turn and (B) readying an action to be triggered by my enemy's actions. But that's very far from true.
Suppose, as in your example, that I ready an action to do something if the guy attacks me. I'm expecting an arrow, but say he drops his bow (free action) and charges at me (full-round action, plus a free action to draw a weapon as he goes). So his attack (the trigger condition of my readied action) happens while he's adjacent to me, but the state of things before his action is that he was 20ft away. If I had simply taken my turn before his, I do my stuff while he's 20ft away. If I ready for when he attacks me and then he charges, does he suddenly "rewind" his full-round action so that I can do my stuff while he's 20ft away? Because if not, then you've set up a false equivalency between readying and simply taking my turn before his.
Additionally, consider scorching ray. It's clear in the rules (and verified in the FAQ) that, despite being a single standard action, the spell provokes two AoOs: one for casting, one for making ranged attacks. Furthermore, the spell states that if you're high enough level to get more than one ray, you have to choose targets all at once (not sequentially like a full-attack action).
Suppose (again with the typical example) that the enemy against whom I'm readying an action if he shoots at me is a 7th-level wizard. Let's also assume that I have a melee buddy next to him and he has no room to 5ft step away. He declares that he's casting scorching ray. My buddy gets an AoO (he didn't cast defensively for whatever reason) and we resolve that attack. He hits and deals damage, and the enemy caster makes a successful concentration check to continue casting. Having now finished casting the spell, my enemy selects (still as part of the same action!) his two targets: me and my buddy (lucky for him my buddy doesn't have Combat Reflexes). Now that he's trying to shoot me (with a ray), my readied action triggers. When does my readied action happen? Not only has the caster already begun his action, but we've even resolved multiple consequences of his having performed it! We've had an attack, some damage, and a concentration check; all within the action that you seem to want to put my readied action entirely before. What if my readied action is something that can apply a penalty to a concentration check? Will it retroactively affect the check he already made? If readying is equivalent to taking my turn first, then it will. What if it cares about HP totals (like deathwatch or something)? Do I get info based on his HP before or after the AoO? What if my readied action has an effect that can let an ally take an AoO? If we move it to before the spellcaster's action, then my ally hasn't used his AoO yet and can take the shot (which would have interesting consequences if he then misses, causing the caster to gain back the HP from the other AoO which suddenly hasn't happened). And even if you get past all the other issues and he re-aims the ray that was headed for me, you now have a situation where we resolved a readied action without its trigger condition ever being met. Normally if the trigger condition isn't met, you simply wasted a round, but your interpretation changes that.
Furthermore, you have to reconcile your view with examples of readied actions given in the Core Rules themselves. For instance, the Core Rulebook gives the example of readying an attack against a caster with the condition "if she starts casting a spell". Under your interpretation, the attack would happen before the casting happens. But the Ready rules state that damage from the readied attack could cost her the spell, which the concentration rules say would only happen if the caster is damaged while casting a spell, not right before. That is, if you damage me on your turn, then on my turn I cast, there's no check. If you damage me on an AoO as I move away from you, and then I cast, there's no check. The damage has to happen during the spellcasting. And the Ready rules say a readied attack qualifies for this. Any interpretation of Readying that conflicts with this is incorrect.
Now if you can resolve all those issues (not just ignore them and keep repeating "my idea makes sense!", but actually address them), then you'll have things to say that I am very interested in hearing.
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You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.
The trigger condition must be understood by the character, and as such must not be about game mechanics (like 'actions', 'armour class', attack roll', 'hit points'), and must be knowable by the character (you can't know that a caster is going to target you instead of one of your party, so you can't trigger your action by saying I'll counterspell his hold person if he's going to target me but not if he targets someone else).
Actions which are effectively instantaneously cannot be interrupted half-way through. You can interrupt an attack against you, but that interruption is before the attack is rolled, not between the arrow leaving the bow and arriving at the target. You can interrupt a spell as the caster is in the process of spellcasting, but your interruption occurs before targeting decisions are made. He is committed to casting that spell but he chooses his targets after your interrupting action has been completed.
You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.”
You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check
The process of spellcasting takes an amount of time. After the casting has started, observers have a chance to react to it, but they do not know what decisions the caster will make at the completion of spellcasting (they can speculate all they like, but they cannot use this guess as a trigger condition).
The moment the spellcasting process is complete the caster makes targeting decisions and the spell takes effect. This is an instantaneous process. It can't be interrupted by putting your own action between the targeting decision and the spell taking effect.
If a caster starts casting scorching ray, you have a chance to recognise what spell he is casting. You may react to that knowledge, even if the extent of your knowledge is that he seems to be casting but I've no idea what spell it will be.
How may a readied action may interact with this process?
Your trigger may be 'he starts casting'. It may be 'if he starts casting and I recognise the spell, I may choose to counterspell if I am able'.
Your trigger cannot be 'if his spell will target me...' because you can't read his mind nor see the future. It cannot be 'if his spell targets me...' because the moment it targets you then it affects you, so any response will not interrupt that.
If you plan to use a readied action to use dimension door or the like to avoid a ranged attack, how does it work?
Your trigger can be 'if he aims at me...', but then your DD interrupts his attack before the actual attack, so when your DD has resolved then he resumes his actions and he may aim at any valid target at that moment. You cannot have the trigger 'after the arrow leaves the bow but before the arrow reaches me...', because the actual attack is effectively instantaneous.
You can use readying to insert your action between the actions of your opponent. Aiming a bow is not an action. Attacking with a bow is an action. If you interrupt his attack then your action goes before his attack, and then he has his attack and makes targeting decisions at that point. You can't insert your action between his deciding to target you and his actual attack, because his decision to target you is not an action, it is part of the attack action.
Imagine for a moment that the game mechanics allowed you to insert your action between the arrow leaving the bow and the arrow reaching you. If this was possible, any creature could render itself unhittable just by readying an action to step 5-feet to the left with the trigger being 'after the arrow leaves the bow but before it reaches me'.
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I'm not sure I would allow "targeted by a spell" to be a trigger for a readied action - that sounds like a purely mental process on the part of the spellcaster, and the readying character would (generally) have no way to know. It would be like having a ready trigger based on hostile intentions. Perhaps it's not strict RAW that the readying character has to be able to perceive the trigger, but it's clearly RAI and avoids a whole host of absurd situations.
I would also say (although this is less strict RAW) that any proposed trigger has to give you time to react - triggering off an arrow leaving the bow would only leave a fraction of a second to do anything, far less time than a standard action spell. It's one thing to ready an action against "an attack," another to say "I'm going to close this door after he pulls the trigger on his gun to block the bullet."
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Malachi, nothing in the rules you have posted says that the only conditions you can ready an action against is another action.
Nothing in the rules you have posted say that as soon as a spell is targeted, then the target is effected by it, non-interuptable.
You're operating under some very significant assumptions that you need to prove are the rules in order for your argument to hold water.
Furthermore your argument that you can't ready against targeting "because you can't read his mind nor see the future" doesn't make much logical sense, because readying is inherently trying to predict what the enemy will do and be prepared for it. You could apply the same logic to say you can't ready any actions, because you don't know precisely how the condition will be met in the future. If a spell is cast without verbal, somatic, or material components, does your ready action to disrupt when spellcasting not go off?
Jiggy has very conclusively shown through the rules that you can't change anything about your action when a readied action interupts it, and just because your action happens first because there needs to be an order to the timing of effects, it doesn't mean that the trigger didn't actualy start happening yet, like you magically read the future. When I ready against a ranged attack against me, it does interupt his action, by the rules cited earlier in his thread. So he starts the ranged attack, I interupt it somewhere in the middle, then the ranged attack tries to complete. A good way to think of it could be that the arrow leaves the bow, the readied action happens, then the arrow reaches it's target.
...meaning that you can wait until the gun has fired, then close the door before the bullet hits?
....meaning that you can read a caster's mind about who he will choose to target with hold person?
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
The spells effects take place when you finish casting the spell.
Targeting decisions and the spell taking effect are, RAW, simultaneous. There is no gap into which you can insert your own action.
I let myself get a little heated about the argument earlier in my head. So far I am willing to say that there is not a clear answer supported 100% by either side. I think this sort of thing may be a good candidate for an FAQ.
Ultimately the idea that you can ready an action to move and cause the archer to aim at the wrong spot and shoot that empty spot just doesn't sit right with me in any fashion. Nor can I see any obvious or clear indication from the rules that it should.
I'm going to spend some time looking around and see if I can find some relevant discussion to parse this out further.
Actually I did just have a thought that I decided I should post before I forget it.
Lets say you have a caster ready an action that by saying that if monster X charges me I'll cast grease between me and him (not on him for some reason). Monster X begins to move charging, you cast Grease (or some spell that creates difficult terrain) on the intervening space between you and him. Now he can't charge you, but by your logic he can't not charge you either because he can only do the that set off the readied action. So is he in a limbo state where he can do nothing? Seems unlikeley to me, at the very least he should be able to walk and try to move across the greased area (even if that's difficult) and continue to try and attack you if he can move far enough.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Personally, I've been going with the (tentative) belief that when the Ready rules say your readied action happens before the action that triggered it, it means before the triggering event finishes. I've found that this interpretation causes most of the rest of the issues to snap into place, so I've been going with that until someone can make a rules-sound argument for a different interpretation.
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All forms of blocking an attack IRL require predicting your opponent's actions through tells such as body language. This is not mind reading but short term predictions base on tells are functionally accurate. There is no reason to believe a spell caster getting ready to cast a spell gives any less of a tell than a boxer about to deliver a right hook.
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All forms of blocking an attack IRL require predicting your opponent's actions through tells such as body language. This is not mind reading but short term predictions base on tells are functionally accurate. There is no reason to believe a spell caster getting ready to cast a spell gives any less of a tell than a boxer about to deliver a right hook.
Agreed!
Let's take the pistol/close door example. You can't know that the gunslinger will fire at you, but you can predict that he will, and you may be right or wrong.
So, you can use your belief as a trigger (if he looks like he's going to fire at me I'll slam the door shut), but you cannot use knowledge you can't possibly have as your trigger (I'll slam the door shut when he mentally decides to shoot me), nor can your action be inserted where there is no useable space (after the bullet is fired but before the bullet reaches the door).
When you trigger slamming the door shut on the strength of your belief, that happens before he shoots. After the door slams he can either shoot at any viable target or abort the shot (losing that single attack).
If you can't know who a spellcaster is targeting as part of his spell casting when casting a hostile spell (before or after casting, remember, the choosing target at the end is at the caster's option), then you can't ready an action against a charge either, which is allowed.
The reason why? You can't tell the guy is actually charging you. He could be charging your ally who's standing next to you, or the tree on the other side of you, or he could just be running up to you to close the distance and be ready to attack you next round. There is no observational difference between a guy running at you to close to melee and a guy charging you until he drives the pointy thing into your gut at the end of his charge. If you can tell he's going to poke his pointy thing in your belly button at the end of his movement, then you can tell the guy waving his hands and making wierd noises is going to point his finger at you and fire a beam of heat at you when he finishes his hokey pokey dance and mumble.
Is this realistic? No. Is it the RAW? Yes. Because that's all that makes sense given the way the RAW is typed up.
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2) White Dragon declare a full attack against Target Y. Target Y has readied an action to activate a Wondrous Item that gives them Fire Body, which means Dragon automatically take Fire Damage from each attack it makes, taking extra damage from each one. Dragon changes to use breath weapon on fire body guy, knowing they take extra damage from cold.
Dragon declare full attack, make its first attack, see what happen, then it can convert its other actions to a move, or attack other targets or even abort its attack if he want.
The attacks in a full attack are sequential, not simultaneous.Relevant rule quotes:
Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out and assuming you have not already taken a move action this round. If you've already taken a 5-foot step, you can't use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.
Dragon declare full attack, make its first attack, see what happen, then it can convert its other actions to a move, or attack other targets or even abort its attac if eh want.
The attacks in a full attack are sequential, not simultaneous.
I understand that Diego, how does that allow what the person I was replying to said was possible, which was that the dragon could change to breath weapon?
Note I was explaining the consequences the Dragon saw, which was that every attack would damage it, not that he must make all his attacks, but he can't change from a full attack melee action to a breath attack, which was the point. He could indeed stop attacking after the first one, but that just converts his full attack to a standard, he still does the attack and takes the damage if he hits.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If you can't know who a spellcaster is targeting as part of his spell casting when casting a hostile spell (before or after casting, remember, the choosing target at the end is at the caster's option), then you can't ready an action against a charge either, which is allowed.
The reason why? You can't tell the guy is actually charging you. He could be charging your ally who's standing next to you, or the tree on the other side of you, or he could just be running up to you to close the distance and be ready to attack you next round. There is no observational difference between a guy running at you to close to melee and a guy charging you until he drives the pointy thing into your gut at the end of his charge. If you can tell he's going to poke his pointy thing in your belly button at the end of his movement, then you can tell the guy waving his hands and making wierd noises is going to point his finger at you and fire a beam of heat at you when he finishes his hokey pokey dance and mumble.
Is this realistic? No. Is it the RAW? Yes. Because that's all that makes sense given the way the RAW is typed up.
If a PC is in such a situation where being charged would not be a clear action on the enemy's part, I would disallow that specific of a trigger. A brace weapon just needs to be used as a readied action against a charging character, the trigger for the ready does not have to be a charge. One could ready to attack "a foe that moves into my reach," for example, and the brace property would still apply if that foe was charging.
If a PC is in such a situation where being charged would not be a clear action on the enemy's part, I would disallow that specific of a trigger. A brace weapon just needs to be used as a readied action against a charging character, the trigger for the ready does not have to be a charge. One could ready to attack "a foe that moves into my reach," for example, and the brace property would still apply if that foe was charging.
Wrong.
If you ready to attack someone in range, then yes, you would attack as he charged. If you hit, you'd do your normal weapon damage. The ready rules specifically call out bracing for a charge, and specify that if you do so, you get double damage. But then you are giving up the ability to hit someone who comes in range if they do not charge you.
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Dragon declare full attack, make its first attack, see what happen, then it can convert its other actions to a move, or attack other targets or even abort its attac if eh want.
The attacks in a full attack are sequential, not simultaneous.
I understand that Diego, how does that allow what the person I was replying to said was possible, which was that the dragon could change to breath weapon?
Note I was explaining the consequences the Dragon saw, which was that every attack would damage it, not that he must make all his attacks, but he can't change from a full attack melee action to a breath attack, which was the point. He could indeed stop attacking after the first one, but that just converts his full attack to a standard, he still does the attack and takes the damage if he hits.
No, MDT, you are replying to what you feel the other poster is saying and adding things he hasn't said to his position.
Several posters have done that in this thread, so the replies are not to actual posts but to expanded and somewhat distorted version of those posts.I think that if that keep up you will not get to a reasonable conclusion as you (collective you) are speaking over each other head.
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The rules for readied action are actually pretty straightforward, going by RAW.
First, there's the general rule:
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
RAW makes no allowance for interrupting someone in the middle of an action. A readied action explicitly takes place before the action that triggers it. As written, you interrupt the character (possibly between two actions in his action sequence), not an action-in-progress.
Then there are some specific rules, that deal with "Distracting Spellcasters", "Readying to Counterspell" and "Readying a Weapon against a Charge". These specific rules are clearly stated in their own separate paragraphs, and superseed the general rule, as specific rules do. Nothing in these more specific rules carries any implications that can be carried over to the general rule. This is how the game, by and large, works in all cases of specific rules vs. general rules.
If the general rule doesn't fit how you picture things happening in the game world, either adjust how you picture things happening in the game world, or house-rule it to fit your vision.
The general rule, clearly and explicitly, has a readied action that isn't one of the specific ones, take place before the action that triggers it. This, at the very least, means that any decisions that need to be made as a part of the triggering action, have not been made yet at the time the triggered action takes place. Target determination for spellcasting is explicitly stated to take place at completion of the spell.
Unfortunately, many other actions aren't clear at all as to the moment that a target has to be committed to. Lacking an FAQ entry, GM adjudication is the only way to deal with those.
@Diego
The poster I was talking about explicitly said "I can change my target after the readied action". That says 'I can change what I'm going to do' based on the readied action. If that is the case, then why can that person change their bow shot target from A to B, but a dragon can't change from Full Attack Melee to breath weapon?
As Victor says, when debating, you take someone's position, show the logical fallacy in it, and show how it breaks down. There's no other way to debate rules.
Well, there is, but standing and yelling in each other's faces 'NIN! NIN! NIN!" over and over again doesnt' really accomplish much.
@Diego
The poster I was talking about explicitly said "I can change my target after the readied action". That says 'I can change what I'm going to do' based on the readied action. If that is the case, then why can that person change their bow shot target from A to B, but a dragon can't change from Full Attack Melee to breath weapon?
As Victor says, when debating, you take someone's position, show the logical fallacy in it, and show how it breaks down. There's no other way to debate rules.
Well, there is, but standing and yelling in each other's faces 'NIN! NIN! NIN!" over and over again doesnt' really accomplish much.
Did I ever stat that I thought you could change what you were doing, not just changing target? If I did, that was an accident, and I apologize for that statement because that doesn't make sense. If I start a full attack with a bow, and a readied action interrupts it, I'm still stuck with taking a full attack action. But if you move around, but are still within range and line of effect then I can still attack you wherever you move. Or anyone else at my discretion.
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Malachai, no where in the rules does it say that targeting and spell effect happen at the same time
I beg to differ:-
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
How can this be read as there being a gap between targeting and blasting?
And yes, you can ready and action to close a door faster than a speeding bullet. The ready action rules don't make sense from a logical, real world stance.
(bear with me) Back in 1st and 2nd ed there was a cleric spell called command. The cleric spoke a single word and (assuming the word made sense as an order) the target would obey that command. That word could be absolutely any word. Astonishingly, the spell description didn't have a complete list of every word of every real and imagined language with instructions and game rules defining the result! How did those players survive without clear RAW? This is where the DM earned his snacks! The DM adjudicated whatever command word was chosen! I know, right!
There were guidelines, of course. If the target didn't speak the lingo then it didn't work. If the word couldn't be understood as an order then it didn't work. My favourite command was 'masturbate!', which usually resulted in dropped weapons, guard, and pants. Once a player had an enemy cleric standing next to an open window. His command word was 'jump!'. I had her jump up and down on the spot for the full round.
Nowadays, the command spell doesn't allow for infinite possibility. There are only a few possible command words and their effects described.
So, what's the point of all this?
The 'ready' action, it's trigger and to some extent the interrupting action, has infinite possibilities, not a restricted and fully described list. There are guidelines, of course, but it absolutely must be adjudicated by the DM! Some things are easy, but some require more judgement.
Guidelines exist within the RAW, but other guidelines are a consequence of the rules without being spelt out in so many words. The interrupting action must, in the opinion of the DM, be credible for the creature. The creature can only set a trigger where that creature could credibly perceive the trigger (so no mind-reading, unless the creature can actually mind-read).
The DC superhero, The Flash, could easily react to a fired gun in time to shut the door, but The Flash can think and react fast enough to do that. You'd have to have a remarkable PF PC to persuade your DM that he could do the same.
Its the same way that you can interupt one spell with a spell that takes just as long to cast, even though they started casting before you did. The reason you can do it is because the rules explicitly say that you can do it.
The reason is you don't need to cast the spell normally, just enough to interfere with the spell you are counterspelling. This doesn't take as long.
Also, there is nothing in the rules that supports your arguement that you have to use your belief as a trigger. There are rules that say you have to complete the action that was interupted by a readied action. There are not rules that say you may change anything about the initially declared action.
I declare an attack. A readied action interrupts me. That action completes, now it's my turn to continue my attack. Since I choose my target at the moment I execute my attack (see Full Attacks) then I can choose any target that is valid at that moment.
Your arguements make sense logically in the real world. But the patherfinder rules for readying are an abstraction of how things would work in a pretend world. Under close scrutiny they don't make real world logical sense. Just like casting a fireball doesn't.
Just because magic works in our game worlds, it doesn't mean that nothing needs to make sense! Our worlds are internally consistent. Magic works. Simultaneous effects don't have a gap between them.
I don't suggest that game actions can't be interrupted. Full attacks can be interrupted between attacks, but not between an arrow leaving the bow and arriving at the target.
A full attack's separate attacks are not simultaneous, but consecutive. That's why you can insert an interrupting action between two of them. But scorching ray has two or three simultaneous rays. You can't wait for one to resolve then insert an action and then resolve another ray.
The DM has a job to do, and judging readied actions is one of them.
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@Diego
The poster I was talking about explicitly said "I can change my target after the readied action". That says 'I can change what I'm going to do' based on the readied action. If that is the case, then why can that person change their bow shot target from A to B, but a dragon can't change from Full Attack Melee to breath weapon?
As Victor says, when debating, you take someone's position, show the logical fallacy in it, and show how it breaks down. There's no other way to debate rules.
Well, there is, but standing and yelling in each other's faces 'NIN! NIN! NIN!" over and over again doesnt' really accomplish much.
mdt, when you change someone statement to create a logical fallacy that wasn't present in the original statement, you are using cheap debate tricks, not arguing logically.
Claxon position was clear, you still had to do the same action, but you have te possibility to chose another target if available.
You changed his statement to "you can change your action".
I think it was done without malice as you simply gave your interpretation of what Claxon had said, but you changed his statement.
I will say I've spent some time thinking about this and the implications. I think if for instance someone readies an action to cast grease or a pit trap in front of you after you start a charge that you move toward the space, but can stop yourself from entering into the affected squares. In the instance of the pit you have to make the reflex save for being next to the pit. Because you charged you cannot continue movement even if you have movement left. You can however make a single attack if there is a valid target available. You could not however, say drink a potion, You were prepared and committed to a charge (a double move and attack available).
If you instead had just been walking, but not charging, towards the enemy and they cast the effect between you and them you could continue to move to your full movement speed in whatever direction you choose. In order for this to happen they would have to make the readied condition "when they move towards me". After this if finished you can still use your standard action in whatever way you like since you hadn't committed to a specific action with it.