Okay, so a player rolled into a new ring of blinking, so I searched to see what the duration was on it and... results were mixed mixed and relayed mostly 3.5 material.
So, Does a spell command item like Ring of Blinking work continuously after its command word is spoken? Or does it merely last 7 rounds?
pfsrd wrote: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. A ring of blinking is activated by command word. As far as I know, after activation it continues to work until you turn it off.
It says as per the spell, the ring has a CL of 7. Once activated it would stay active for 7 rounds.
The item says nothing about being continuous or always on and activation action has no bearing on duration unless mentioned so in the items description.
And then you activate it again. There's no limit on activations so why bother making the PC activate it every 7 round?
because it takes a standard action to activate a magic item?
To quote Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory, "I had to leave, they were having fun wrong." :-)
Speaker for the Dead wrote: And then you activate it again. There's no limit on activations so why bother making the PC activate it every 7 round? Because it has a caster level and refers back to the spell? Action economy is part of 'the game,' decisions about what to do are part of 'the game.' When something has a short duration effect like this, it forces a character has to make those decisions. That is intended.
Also if you look at the pricing guidelines for a continuous effect of this spell, you'll notice it is drastically underpriced.
You're right of course. Sorry if I came across as disparaging or dismissive.
For an item like this I wouldn't bother with making a player spend a standard action every seven rounds because I think it would mess up the flow of the game. Call it GM discretion.
If I were the player and a GM insisted, I'd follow the rule. I probably wouldn't even wine about it :-)
Reading thru the various Rings it would appear RAW is as Skylancer has indicated for a Ring of Blinking as many of the Rings say things such as 'continually' or 'continuous' or specifically indicate what action, if any, is required to use.
That said I've personally never required a player to do so and probably never will require them to use a standard action except to initially activate the ring (outside of PFS play). As for the "drastically" underpricing if it were to be calculated out as 'continuous' I'm not sure the difference between a standard action every 7 rounds and continuous operation is anywhere near a significant enough of a difference to actually account for the price difference anyway though YMMV and all. Probably the only way I could see a significant difference would be if one assumes the wearer has it always activated and therefore any foes gaining ambush or surprise would have to deal with an already blinking character. I'd say combat that would require more than a second use of a standard action (i.e a second activation during combat in addition to the initial activation) would be rather rare making the 'penalty/decision' mostly moot.
'Rare' is going to vary wildly from game to game. Some groups will spend rounds pre-buffing before a fight. Every round spent buffing up would count against the rings duration depending on order. This could easily push making the decision to renew the ring versus doing something else earlier in combat and making a second activation common. Also think about what blinking does and its use as utility spell.
Skylancer4 wrote: 'Rare' is going to vary wildly from game to game. Some groups will spend rounds pre-buffing before a fight. Every round spent buffing up would count against the rings duration depending on order. This could easily push making the decision to renew the ring versus doing something else earlier in combat and making a second activation common. Also think about what blinking does and its use as utility spell. Fair enough, rare may be overstating it for some groups/campaigns. Though pre-combat activity plus combat is going to have to stretch to 14+ rounds with some frequency in the campaign to make it much if an issue. And to be clear it's needing a 3rd+ activation (not a second) that I said would be 'rare' as I agree pre-combat buffs (of the round/level sort) plus sneaking up on the target etc. could eat up quite a bit of the first chunk of 7 rounds before combat even starts in a buff oriented group. That said in my experience by the time I could cast more than a few round/level buffs my round/level buffs would be lasting 10+ rounds. Haste, Displacement, Greater Invisibility, for example, while on my Wizard. The rest would have been minute/level or longer (or cast by another in the group). I'd simply be using the Ring last (or close to last). The higher level I got, with more potential buffs to cast the more true that would become (using the Ring or 'Item' last). Maybe it would be an issue for a fighter or other non-caster using several items to buff himself.
Out of combat/utility use ... the 'penalty' of having to use a standard action becomes a non-penalty pretty much doesn't it or is my now sleep deprived brain missing something?
By the rules for magic item creation, you could actually have a CL other than 7 on this item. See this thread. The only stipulation that I can see is that the CL on the item could not be higher than the character level of the item's creator. CL7 is just typical for this item, probably because that is the lowest level when you could get the Forge Ring feat.
Actually, the magic item creation rules only stipulate that when you create an item, the CL cannot be lower than the lowest level required to cast the spell (5th, for the Blink spell, assuming a wizard crafter) and no higher than your current caster level when you create the item. A character who cannot take Forge Ring until 7th level could still forge rings using a first level spell and set the Caster Level to 1 if he is so inclined.
Adjusting the caster level should usually adjust the price and the final Spellcraft check to create the item.
Check the FAQ. You're right that you're limited on the bottom end by the minimum level needed to cast the required spells. However, there is no such limitation on the upper end.
You can craft above your level as you can meet the craft DC and afford the increase in price it might incur.
MacGurcules wrote: Check the FAQ. You're right that you're limited on the bottom end by the minimum level needed to cast the required spells. However, there is no such limitation on the upper end.
You can craft above your level as you can meet the craft DC and afford the increase in price it might incur.
I think you're getting something different out of that FAQ than I am.
First, the FAQ you linked says that CL is not a requirement. I agree. I never said it was.
Second, the FAQ you linked does not say that a magic item crafter is allowed to craft items of a higher CL than he is capable of casting. My post that you're responding to says the upper CL is equal to the CL of the item's creator. This is supported by RAW, and not changed by the FAQ you linked:
Core Rulebook, Magic Item Creation wrote: While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. This passage first says that the item's caster level is equal to the creator's caster level (first part I bolded), and then later it says you can create items at a lower caster level if you want (second part I bolded).
Nowhere does it say you can create items at a CL higher than your own. That would be roughly equivalent to a 5th level wizard casting a Fireball as if CL 10 just so he could do more damage - clearly not possible, and it's also not possible for a 5th level wizard to create a necklace wand of 10th level fireballs, or any other item with any CL higher than his own.
These are not requirements. Just limits.
I freely admit, maybe I've missed some other FAQ or Errata somewhere that invalidates everything I just wrote, but the FAQ you linked does not.
FAQ wrote: For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement. Perhaps it's not the intent, but the bolded text seems to suggest that the only limitation is the craft DC.
Fair enough, but I read that with the rest of the rules in mind, which limits the caster to his own CL or lower, and then within that limitation, he can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC).
I don't see that bolded bit of the FAQ as overriding the existing rule because this FAQ isn't answering rules about general crafting and caster levels, it's answering a specific question about the "required" caster level of Pearls of Power - a different and very specific question entirely so the answer here doesn't rewrite what the entire CRB says about spellcasting and caster levels and item creation in general.
Speaker for the Dead wrote:
For an item like this I wouldn't bother with making a player spend a standard action every seven rounds because I think it would mess up the flow of the game. Call it GM discretion.
Since it lasts rounds per level I would require the player to activate it in combat, or immediately before if they are about to get the drop on someone. If a ring lasted hours per level I would assume its always one. I don't know what I would do for minute and 10 minute durations.
DM_Blake wrote: Fair enough, but I read that with the rest of the rules in mind, which limits the caster to his own CL or lower, and then within that limitation, he can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC).
I don't see that bolded bit of the FAQ as overriding the existing rule because this FAQ isn't answering rules about general crafting and caster levels, it's answering a specific question about the "required" caster level of Pearls of Power - a different and very specific question entirely so the answer here doesn't rewrite what the entire CRB says about spellcasting and caster levels and item creation in general.
I can see where you're coming from. I read it as the standard rules as only explicitly defining a lower bound and the FAQ as clarifying that there is no upper bound. But I can see how you'd read it as defining the permissions rather than the restrictions.
The rules around crafting are kind of foggy enough that pretty much everyone is going to need to find their own balance in it. I hear tell Ultimate Campaign is supposed to clear things up a bit on the crafting front. Maybe this will be one of those things.
MacGurcules wrote: Check the FAQ. You're right that you're limited on the bottom end by the minimum level needed to cast the required spells. However, there is no such limitation on the upper end.
You can craft above your level as you can meet the craft DC and afford the increase in price it might incur.
You're entirely right here. CL IS NOT a prerequisite. So you can create items that have CL 20 and wish in their description at level 3 [for the feat] if you want (and have enough in spellcraft for the DC, and enough gold for the component).
The ONLY items that can't go above your own CL when you craft them are scrolls, wands and potions (I don't know if you can bypass this prerequisite, but it exists). The other items that have CL prerequisite (armor, weapons and a couple wondrous item) can have this prerequisite bypassed by a +5 DC to create the item.
The same way, the only items that can't have their spell prerequisite passed by a +5DC are scrolls, wands, potions and if I recall Staves (not sure for staves).
Every other prerequisite (in the prerequisite list) can each be bypassed by a +5 DC to spellcraft (or other skill), at the exception of the creation feat (wondrous item creation for example), which is mandatory.
Take another example: Ring of Invisibility. I see two possible interpretations.
Option A) Use a Standard action to activate the ring. You can now remain continually invisible for hours (provided you don't perform any actions that normally cancel invisibility.)
Option B) Use a Standard action to activate the ring. You are now invisible for 3 minutes (as if Invisibility were cast by a 3rd-level caster). Before the 3 minutes expires, you can use a Standard action to activate the ring again, which resets your 3-minute timer again.
I've always thought it was Option B, above. Option A would let you invisibly slip into a war council meeting and observe them making their battle plans. Option B lets you do the same... but you'd better be gone before 3 minutes is up, because otherwise they're going to hear you reactivating the ring. ;)
Have I misinterpreted how this should work?
Nope, that's pretty much how option B would work, though I think for most rings nobody is going to "hear" you activate it since they are use-activated items, which means you activate them by putting them on. Now, that implies taking it off and putting it on to reactivate it, which means you might not be heard at the 3-minute mark, but you might very well be seen unless you also managed to stealth into an unseen location for the reactivation.
I think the RAW supports option B while many players and DMs handwaive it to work more like option A.
DM_Blake wrote: Nope, that's pretty much how option B would work, though I think for most rings nobody is going to "hear" you activate it since they are use-activated items, which means you activate them by putting them on. Now, that implies taking it off and putting it on to reactivate it, which means you might not be heard at the 3-minute mark, but you might very well be seen unless you also managed to stealth into an unseen location for the reactivation. After some more digging, now I'm not so sure about my former choice of Option B, at least in the case of the Ring of Invisibility.
From the magic items section:
Quote: Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
The Ring of Invisibility does state, "By activating this simple silver ring..." - so it does appear to need to be activated. But by the above info, I guess that activation can be mentally willing the activation to happen. So even if it is decided that it does need to be refreshed every 3 minutes, it does appear that this can be done silently.
But for the Ring of Blinking, its item description begins with "On command..." so I presume that means that it does require a command word to be spoken.
Looking at some of the ways other rings are worded, many of them include "continually" or "the wearer" gets certain benefits. But I guess any that say "on command" or that specify they must be "activated" would take a Standard action to activate. And I would suggest that any that do require such manual activation should also be treated as non-continuous, so determine their duration based on the caster level of the item as if the spell in question were being cast.
Does this all make sense? Poke holes in it for me, if I've missed something obvious. (I have a Wizard character who will one day make some rings, so I need to hash this all out with the GM anyway, might as well make sure I've got a solid understanding before bringing it all up.)
Good gaming!
DM_Blake wrote: Nope, that's pretty much how option B would work, though I think for most rings nobody is going to "hear" you activate it since they are use-activated items, which means you activate them by putting them on. Now, that implies taking it off and putting it on to reactivate it, which means you might not be heard at the 3-minute mark, but you might very well be seen unless you also managed to stealth into an unseen location for the reactivation.
I think the RAW supports option B while many players and DMs handwaive it to work more like option A.
Yep that's what I'd thinking as well.
RAW - From the CRB section under Rings:
Quote: Activation: A ring's ability is usually activated by a spoken command word (a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity) or its effects work continually. Some rings have unusual activations, as mentioned in the ring's specific description. Hobbits not withstanding this portion seems to be saying you would need to be wearing the ring (as per the earlier quote on Use Activated items in general) and speak a command word to cause yourself to become invisible for 3 minutes (and every 3 minutes thereafter) since it doesn't specify any other method. This leaves us with the question of "Do you need to speak command words in a manner similar to casting a spell?", i.e. in a 'strong voice' which is highly likely to get you noticed in the council chamber scenario.
Personally since a Ring of Invisibility's intended usage is that of stealthiness I'd probably allow it to be done either by whispering the command word or simply dictate it to be done by putting the ring on, twisting the ring on ones finger or some other equally 'stealthy' method. But that is definitely not RAW but homeruling it.
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