So my witch reached 10th level and I get my first major hex.
Most witch guides seem to jump on the same hexes (Ice tomb, retribution sometimes agony) wich are all sos abilities but with the drawback that they are all or nothing, something I don't like. I already have misfortune wich is all or nothing and most of the time it's nothing (even with ability focus). In addition to that at least retribution seems unclear to me in that I don't understand if the target saves once or each time it deals melee damage.
For spells I tend to learn those, that do something useful even with a successful save. But there doesn't seem to be a hex like that.
Because of that I tend towards major healing right now. But it is generally voted rather low.
So wich major hexes would you recommend and why?
Edit: The witcxh is neutral so hexes from the "good" book don't work.
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The major hexes I generally see need a little set up to work effectively. Hit a target with an evil eye or a misfortune (probably both) and their chances of passing your ice tomb or retribution sharply go down.
I generally recommend ice tomb or retribution, probably retribution over ice tomb as sleep practically does the same thing while retribution will work on ALL targets.
I wouldn't recommend major healing unless you have a spare hex slot as its just you can replicate the spell easily with a spell slot or a wand and at that level the healing won't be as effective.
Ice Tomb is far superior to Slumber in that it can affect things that are immune to Slumber. There are a lot of things that are immune to Slumber, by the way.
The unfortunate thing, though, is that most of the other Major Hexes simply aren't that good. Most of the SoS major hexes have multiple saves, which translates to less reliability. If it's not an SoS, the likelihood is that it's a more long-term or RP-based hex, which means that it's effective in some situations, but not most, and would therefore be better handled by a spell.
Keep in mind at level 10 you should be able to quicken Ill omen as well so evil eye turn 1 , turn 2 cackle for move if you have too , then quicken ill omen and bestow curse. This gives -8 to saves making almost anything land. So quicken another ill omen then major hex and win !
I already have misfortune wich is all or nothing and most of the time it's nothing (even with ability focus).
Ask your DM to stop fudging every roll against your hexes. Evil eye+cackle+Misfortune (then add Slumber to make your DM fudge rolls again) is a very basic and killer combo.
Retribution is quite awesome, but is an all-or-nothing hex too.
If you really don't like that kind of hexes well...maybe you can choose more regular hexes?
Tongues, Ward, Prehensile Hair, Charm, Cauldron or Disguise (you took Fortune and Flight already, right?) are not always on the top of your Hex list but can all be pretty good if not very good.
OP, how high is your INT as well? What is the save for your hexes?
OP, how high is your INT as well? What is the save for your hexes?
I've a scarred witchdoctor, so con based and my con is 22. So at level 10 the save should be 21 (23 for misfortune). And I don't have slumber because the GM asked me to not take it. Which I understand.
Did he allow you to try it before he banhammered it?
Is that 22 unbuffed ? Get a belt of con or bears endurance to add another +2. Also getting rid of is sad :( I love that hex
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Keep in mind at level 10 you should be able to quicken Ill omen as well so evil eye turn 1 , turn 2 cackle for move if you have too , then quicken ill omen and bestow curse. This gives -8 to saves making almost anything land. So quicken another ill omen then major hex and win !
Not quite but close, I'll lay it out at the end.
Ice Tomb should ALWAYS be the first major Hex you take, nothing else comes close to the utility that Hex has for encounter management.
1. Unlike all your other major Hexes, Ice Tomb can target OBJECTS as well as opponents (including Undead, Mindless, Constructs, etc). Retribution CAN affect these targets but is easily defeated by the target switching to ranged attacks or simply stop swinging in melee and casting spells.
2. It's a Fort save instead of will giving you a Caster killer power (which you haven't had since all your other hexes are will saves which casters excel at). AND even if the target does succeed they still take damage (3D8/2) which forces a concentration check if you time it right really upping the caster killing power and solving that SoS issue you are trying to avoid.
3. It doesn't use or NEED cackle. This is huge, you have a super long term effect that will last at least as long as the fight does, effects targets of any size, ignores AC & DR, and leaves you with a move action every round (unlike all your other main hexes).
This literally solves 90% of the issues with playing a witch against other casters & ranged characters.
@Cryage, you don't ever quicken Ill Omen, it's a waste of a slot. In general the optimum pattern is:
Round One: Familiar with wand of ill omen -> Evil Eye -> Cackle.
Round Two: Familiar with wand of ill omen -> Quickened (Rod) Bestow Curse -> Ice Tomb.
At this point your target has a -8 against the Ice tomb and most witches at this point should have a DC between 22-24. Even a Fort heavy opponent at this level should have between a +12 to +14, which means it's now a +4 to +6. Worst case they'll need to roll 17 or better to avoid just losing flat out.
Now IF they do make the save then cackle and you do a round 3 with another ill omen and ice tomb again (Accursed Hex) and force them to roll 17+ twice.
9 times out of 10 this ends the fight in 2 rounds against almost any target.
Now THATS optimized ! Danke :)
I'll miss my +4 to my init for losing my scorpion though :(
Do any of the improved familiars grant this ?
Is that 22 unbuffed ? Get a belt of con or bears endurance to add another +2. Also getting rid of is sad :( I love that hex
It's buffed with a belt +2
Did he allow you to try it before he banhammered it?
He had a witch in another game prior who used it. And he didn't banhammer it but politely asked me to take other hexes. A big difference.
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Now THATS optimized ! Danke :)
I'll miss my +4 to my init for losing my scorpion though :(
Do any of the improved familiars grant this ?
Nope. None of the improved familiars grant any of the static bonuses BUT if you went with the beast bonded witch archetype they can give you something a LOT better at 10th level.
Kill yourself and jump into your familiar then track down a Quickling and Magic Jar into it. You are now rocking a permanent natural Dex of 24 for a +7 init that benefits from all of your other init boosters.
Now THATS optimized ! Danke :)
I'll miss my +4 to my init for losing my scorpion though :(
Do any of the improved familiars grant this ?
Nope. None of the improved familiars grant any of the static bonuses BUT if you went with the beast bonded witch archetype they can give you something a LOT better at 10th level.
Kill yourself and jump into your familiar then track down a Quickling and Magic Jar into it. You are now rocking a permanent natural Dex of 24 for a +7 init that benefits from all of your other init boosters.
This is something I'll remember for my future witches ;) current one I'm about to roll up is based on Diablo 2's necromancer (doing a party of video game inspired characters)
I guess a downside about using a familiar with a wand is fighting enemies with spell resistance
A good plan for a tarrasque is hit it with retribution then feed as much you can to it as quickly as you can ;)
Wait, what? My GM ruled that all Ice Tomb does to undead is 3d8 cold damage, save for half, and that it doesn't work at all on inanimate objects. (If it did, I could freeze a lake solid with a little time. That'd be fun...) Was there a new ruling I missed?
1. Unlike all your other major Hexes, Ice Tomb can target OBJECTS as well as opponents (including Undead, Mindless, Constructs, etc). Retribution CAN affect these targets but is easily defeated by the target switching to ranged attacks or simply stop swinging in melee and casting spells.
Ice Tomb (Su): A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious but does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. Whether or not the target’s saving throw is successful, it cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. Source: Ultimate Magic
Undead creature type includes "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." I don't see anything in Ice Tomb that says it works on inanimate objects, so it seems like undead might be immune.
Yeah, I'd like to know where it says it works on objects, far as I know it's unclear/unsettled whether it does or not.
If it does not, undead and constructs are immune.
You definitely want Ice Tomb or Retribution. I dislike Agony, it's very poor. The other Major Hexes kinda suck, it is by far the least impressive grouping of hexes out of the 3.
Waxen Image (created before combat of all your allies) can be useful for those times giving an ally a move action is worth giving up your own standard action. Those times will be very very rare, though.
EDIT: If failure is your concern, you should've grabbed Accursed Hex long ago. ;)
Unfortunately at this point you can't take it till level 13, since every witch is required to take Split Hex at level 11. (I'm joking...but barely)
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Wait, what? My GM ruled that all Ice Tomb does to undead is 3d8 cold damage, save for half, and that it doesn't work at all on inanimate objects. (If it did, I could freeze a lake solid with a little time. That'd be fun...) Was there a new ruling I missed?
1. Unlike all your other major Hexes, Ice Tomb can target OBJECTS as well as opponents (including Undead, Mindless, Constructs, etc). Retribution CAN affect these targets but is easily defeated by the target switching to ranged attacks or simply stop swinging in melee and casting spells.Ice Tomb (Su): A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious but does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. Whether or not the target’s saving throw is successful, it cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. Source: Ultimate Magic
Undead creature type includes "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)." I don't see anything in Ice Tomb that says it works on inanimate objects, so it seems like undead might be immune.
That is a GM ruling but the Hex itself specifies TARGET, not opponent or foe or creature or type like all other offensive hexes or spells. Since "Target" is a spell term that denotes both living foes and inanimate objects it will work on pretty much anything.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets.
You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target.
Ice Tomb as a power does not ever state that it only works on an animate target, foe or creature like every other offensive hex in the game. Since it is the singular hex that has omitted that target clarification then it is intentional and falls back to the standard rules of targeted spells which is creatures OR objects.
With that said since it works on Objects it bypasses the immunity undead have to fortitude save effects. Now it doesn't remove their immunity to Unconsciousness or Paralysis since that is a different ability not tied to their immunity to fort save effects but they will still take the damage and be encased in ice. They are just conscious and can attempt to break out (not easy but not a hard DC to break the Ice).
Another thing that's unclear for Ice Tomb is its range.
One thing that's also unclear on Ice Tomb, to me at least, is how long it lasts if the ice isn't destroyed. Does the target just stay frozen indefinitely?
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Unless otherwise stated the default range for all hexes is 30 feet. Since Ice Tomb does not specify it uses that default range.
As for the duration it specifically states destroying the ice frees the target. So until it is freed from the ice by it's destruction it stays frozen. If the environment is cold enough that the ice never melts then yes, the target stays frozen forever.
Everything needed to know about how this hex works is spelled out in black and white in it's description and that description is glorious.
Oh and your next question will inevitably be how thick and tough is the ice which is spelled out in the hardness rules.
Ice 0 3/in. of thickness
Since this ice has 20 hitpoints that means it's about 6.66 inches thick, an appropo number if you see the inherent "evilness" of the class.
Unless otherwise stated the default range for all hexes is 30 feet. Since Ice Tomb does not specify it uses that default range.
Can you point me to the part in the rules where it states this? One of my gms, a fellow player, and myself have been combing over the witch rules to try to find this answer (both in physical books and the prd) and we can't find it.
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Unless otherwise stated the default range for all hexes is 30 feet. Since Ice Tomb does not specify it uses that default range.Can you point me to the part in the rules where it states this? One of my gms, a fellow player, and myself have been combing over the witch rules to try to find this answer (both in physical books and the prd) and we can't find it.
With the exception of 3 specific major hexes (Agony, Nightmares & Retribution) every other Hex in the game has a range of 30 feet listed.
Since the witch was introduced in the playtest the range for all hexes have been set at 30 feet unless specifically stated it was different.
If failure is your concern, you should've grabbed Accursed Hex long ago.
I already have it and use it from time to time with misfortune. But often enough on non boss fights the target is dead before a second turn misfortune does something and during boss fights I usually rather do something I'm more or less sure does something relevant than gamble with an all or nothing effect.
So in most cases against enemies that are dangerous I'd prefer to entangle them with a rimed frost fall or a rimed ice storm (entangle is automatic to everything without cold resist/immunity) and after that (depending on the kind of enemy) I hit it with an evil eye or a ray of exhaustion for another sure to hit debuff.