What square does an eidolon move to on a charge if it has one or more natural weapons with reach?
Example: Eidolon has reach(bite), claws, gore, and pounce. If the eidolon charges, is it forced into the closest square that the bite can reach therefore wasting the pounce evolution?
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and
nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult
terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space
from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is
occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any
line from your starting space to the ending space passes
through a square that blocks movement, slows movement,
or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.
You must end your move as soon as you are close enough to attack with your reach weapon. If you want to take advantage of pounce, you need to ditch the reach evolution.
You must end your move as soon as you are close enough to attack with your reach weapon. If you want to take advantage of pounce, you need to ditch the reach evolution.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and
nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult
terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space
from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is
occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge. If any
line from your starting space to the ending space passes
through a square that blocks movement, slows movement,
or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.
I suspected as much. Thank you!
"closest space" from where you started or from the monster...?
It doesn't really make that bit clear.
I see what you mean Stuart, but I suspect if they meant directly adjacent then they'd say so. As it is I am fairly sure they mean the earliest space from which you could physically engage.
By strict RAW, yes that would be the case. However, this interpretation doesn't make any reasonable sense; why doesn't the addition of a new kind of attack prohibit the creature from moving closer than it otherwise could have?
I'd say a GM would be on fairly solid grounds to declare this a fringe case and rule otherwise.
Probably more a balance issue than anything else, and a side effect of most people having one range for all of their attacks, as opposed to the oddball variable distance ones like here, where different attacks have a different range.
On the same note, why can't I charge through a shut door if I charge it and sunder but still have notional movement left? Why would a flymesh door take AT LEAST a move action to go through as opposed to me just charging through it like the tissue paper it is?
RAW, gotta love it some days!
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On the same note, why can't I charge through a shut door if I charge it and sunder but still have notional movement left? Why would a flymesh door take AT LEAST a move action to go through as opposed to me just charging through it like the tissue paper it is?RAW, gotta love it some days!
Maybe because fly mesh door hadn't been invented in medieval-renaissance times?
Because the typical medieval door was a 4" slab of wood, stronger than what the game define as a "Strong wooden door: hardness 5 HP 20" as 4" of wood would have 40 hp?
Because charging what you don't see is very questionable and a door block your sight?
Being unable to charge through a closed door is perfectly reasonable.
I disagree, I believe that the wording is to cover situations where you may try to charge at an angle that would get you to the creature but not be a direct line to that creature.
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Example (S is start, T is target, R is used later):
Sooo
oooo
oRoo
o123
ooTo
If you charge from S to 2 or 3 you are not moving to the closest point. The closest point would be 1.
Distance S-1: 15'
Distance S-2: 20'
Distance S-3: 20'
Thus, the line regarding closest means 1.
So, that shows what the above bolded line means. Now we move on to can the quoted line also mean that you must stop in R?
Well, since you can define what you are attacking with, the answer is no. You can choose that you are using non-reach attacks. Thus, you can stop in R (for reach attacks) or 1 (for non-reach). At that point, why would you exclude a weapon that can attack if you have pounce just because you *COULD* use it at reach?
Summary: the rule is to dictate which square you can charge to in order to prevent you from using an 'oblique charge' (S-3). It is not to prevent you from getting up close an personal just because you may have a reach attack that you can choose to use.
How would you resolve a mounted warrior with a Lance (reach weapon) charging on a mount without a reach weapon?
1) The mount must stop at the closest point it can make an attack. That point is too close for the lancer.
2) The lancer cannot gain bonuses from charging until the mount ends the charge. (CRB p202)
Thus, the lancer will never be considered charging and thus never gain the wicked bonuses for a lance.
Even more silliness: you only gain the double lance damage from "horseback" and not "while mounted". Yeah, RAW is a funny thing. :P
- Gauss
Maybe because fly mesh door hadn't been invented in medieval-renaissance times?
And if it is/has/was the RAW still says NO.
Because the typical medieval door was a 4" slab of wood, stronger than what the game define as a "Strong wooden door: hardness 5 HP 20" as 4" of wood would have 40 hp?
Erm, no, no it wasn't, it was two planks of thickness... and not relevant as by RAW, a door made of papier mache or a single sheet of paper still stops you. Even if it was two flaps of cowhide tied in place.
Because charging what you don't see is very questionable and a door block your sight?
But that doesn't stop you, it just suggests it could be dangerous.
Being unable to charge through a closed door is perfectly reasonable.
You realise that the same balsa wood door can also stop a charging bull, elephant, dragon, or Tarrasque right?
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In 3.5 my 12th level paladin's mount was a surface-to-air unicorn (thanks to Horseshoes of the Zephyr enchanted with air walk 1/day.)
A combination of Spirited Charge and Ride-By Attack allowed the paladin to do triple damage from the lance (including tripling the +24 damage from Power Attack using the lance two-handed) followed by the unicorn's double damage horn (Power Attack also, and the horn counts as two-handed).
Since the average (non-critical) damage was over 300hp on a charge, I soon retired the character as she either one-shotted every BBEG, or the party found itself adventuring through 5-foot wide corridors far too often for a wilderness campaign....!
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I disagree, I believe that the wording is to cover situations where you may try to charge at an angle that would get you to the creature but not be a direct line to that creature.
.
.
.Example (S is start, T is target, R is used later):
Sooo
oooo
oRoo
o123
ooToIf you charge from S to 2 or 3 you are not moving to the closest point. The closest point would be 1.
Distance S-1: 15'
Distance S-2: 20'
Distance S-3: 20'Thus, the line regarding closest means 1.
So, that shows what the above bolded line means. Now we move on to can the quoted line also mean that you must stop in R?
Well, since you can define what you are attacking with, the answer is no. You can choose that you are using non-reach attacks. Thus, you can stop in R (for reach attacks) or 1 (for non-reach). At that point, why would you exclude a weapon that can attack if you have pounce just because you *COULD* use it at reach?
Summary: the rule is to dictate which square you can charge to in order to prevent you from using an 'oblique charge' (S-3). It is not to prevent you from getting up close an personal just because you may have a reach attack that you can choose to use.
** spoiler omitted **
- Gauss
Sorry, Gauss. It is actually the closest space from which you can attack given your choice of path, not the path of shortest travel.
Sean K Reynolds has clarified this several times on these boards. For instance, read this thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l5b9?Mounts-with-attacks-and-the-RideByAttack- Feat
Otherwise, Ride-By Attack would be impossible.
To summarize, you choose a path to your target, at least 10 feet in distance, up to twice your speed, unhindered by any terrain, objects, or creatures which slow movement. You make your attack from the first space along that path from which you can reach your target. If you do not have Spring Attack (or Ride-By Attack if you are mounted) then your movement ends.
EDIT: Here is Sean's diagram illustrating this point.
The Fox, interesting, but later in that thread he agreed that the RAW is a direct closest target line. He stated that he would lobby for it's change and houserule it in his own games.
SKR stating he would house-rule it in his own games
In short, the charge rules are written badly. I absolutely houserule them in my own game just like SKR does. BUT, this is not a houserule forum, it is the rules forum.
- Gauss
Wow, I didn't realise there was so much on the subject already. Thanks for the information everyone.
I'm going to link this thread to my DM and ask him how he wants to resolve the situation.