A situational ability requires thought to use, a universal ability does not. Guess which one is more in line with a character that lives by his wits?
Well the ability is still BEST used situationally, but now has limited utility outside of that. So I don't see it as breaking the theme.
I am in favour of giving the Rogue more situational abilities so that he can engineer a situation in which one of them would be useful. I know you will say that this requires a complete rewrite of the Rogue class, which was not your aim; fair enough, but i still want it even if I can't have it.
Hey, I am working with ideas that could be implemented easily...not because that's what I want, but because it's what is likely to be achieved. Paizo have no vested interest in sweeping re-writes of the system after all, it's not their style.
I was referring to the bonus to acrobatics specifically. Not every fighter should be an acrobatics master, just those who want to pursue an acrobatics style.(As in swashbuckling).
Acrobatics is more than turning somersaults, it's also jumping and balancing and general athletics. Plus, the bonus is not exactly a huge one.
Actually I would disagree. By about 8th level, A Fighter has all the major Feats he needs for his fighting style and can look forward mainly to level restricted stuff for major boosts, but the same is true for all Martial classes by this point. The difference is, the Barbarian has rage, the Paladin has Smite, mercies and Spells, The Ranger has favoured enemy, Skills and spells So now the fighter is falling behind in combat terms. What can he get that another martial class cannot get? nothing. That's why he needs a boost in combat.
I would dispute - strongly - that the fighter falls behind in combat terms. I've run a game where a fighter, paladin, and ranger all went from 1st level to 16th level. The fighter stayed with the pack for combat ability all the way - hell, he LEAD the pack for combat ability most of the time. Sure, against his favoured enemies the ranger was great, when the paladin chose to smite it was "I win!" but the fighter was the solid performer all the way through.
After 8th level the fighter in question still had Greater Weapon Specialisation to get, and he also took feats to boost himself with other weapons so he became an able switch-hitter with a variety of weapons.
According to their description, "Fighters excel at combat—defeating their enemies, controlling the flow of battle, and surviving such sorties themselves. While their specific weapons and methods grant them a wide variety of tactics, few can match fighters for sheer battle prowess."
Now they need to live up to it.
In my experience, they do most of that. "Controlling the flow of battle" is hard to quantify, and their poor Will save is the only major barrier to surviving sorties, but that aside a well-built fighter does everything he sets out to do.
Again, you will say this requires a complete re-write. I think I must have masocistic tendencies, to continually yearn for what I cannot have.
I'd say it's not needed. Fighters are GOOD at fighting. It;s everything else they have issues with.
I just had a thought for something for the rogue. Not sure if this would be better as an archetype or just added on to the rogue itself (Again, only ever seen 1 rogue in pathfinder, so I'm not the most knowledgeable on how to make it better), but here's my thought:
Underhanded Tactics: At second level, a rogue gains the Improved Dirty Fighting feat, even if she does not qualify for the prerequisites. In addition, if she is flanking the target, or the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the condition lasts an extra round, and removing the condition requires the target to take a standard action.
[Not so sure about the last part, but I feel like it should be a feasible option even when the rogue could use a sneak attack]
Improved Underhanded Tactics: At 8th level, a rogue gains the Greater Dirty Fighting feat, even if she does not qualify for the prerequisites. In addition, if she is flanking the target, or the target is denied it's Dexterity bonus to AC, the rogue deals 1 damage to the target for each d6 of sneak attack damage she has, and removing the condition requires the target to spend a Full-round action.
[Similar to above, I wanted it to be feasible, even when a rogue could sneak attack]
I know this doesn't provide anything to ranged rogues, which is why I'm thinking it might be better as an archetype, but I think this is very flavorful for rogues, and makes the class a lot more interesting, since you now have the choice between damage and debuffing.
I LIKE these!
I think the rogue could have a class feature (or talent, though it's a very strong talent) that looks like this:
Professional (EX) - A rogue is a master of skills. She gains a bonus on all her skills equal to half her rank in that skill or half her rogue level, whichever is less.
So for single-classed rogues it's simply "add half your ranks as a bonus". At 6th level rogue with 6 ranks in perception and 4 ranks in bluff will gain +3 perception, +2 buff. If they multiclass, it's the least of that and rogue level, to prevent dipping.
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I think Kirth hit the nail on the head with scaling fighter feats. If more feats were like Power Attack and Skill focus, in that they improve with leveling, that would make the most sense to me as a "fix" considering most people agree there is no problem at low levels.
I personally think the rogue is too married to sneak attack, unless you are going to change how sneak attack works. I like the flat bonus to damage for finesse weapons idea a great deal, but I'd want to see these things built out.
I could be fine with something like this (Very top of my head)
1d8, 3/4 BaD 8 Skills Good Reflex and Will saves
1. Weapon Finesse (or just a rogue talent, Trapfinding
2. Evasion, Weapon Agility (+1 damage when using weapon finesse)
3. Rogue Talent, trap sense +1
4. Weapon Agility (+2 Damage using weapon finesse) uncanny dodge
5. Rogue Talent
6 Weapon Agility (+3 Damage using weapon finesse) trap sense +2
7. Rogue Talent
8 Weapon Agility (+4 Damage using weapon finesse) Improved uncanny dodge
9. Rogue Talent trap sense +3
10 Weapon Agility (+5 Damage using weapon finesse)
11.Advanced talents, Rogue Talent
12 Weapon Agility (+6 Damage using weapon finesse) trap sense +4
13. Rogue Talent
14 Weapon Agility (+7 Damage using weapon finesse)
15. Rogue Talent trap sense +5
16 Weapon Agility (+8 Damage using weapon finesse)
17. Rogue Talent
18 Weapon Agility (+9 Damage using weapon finesse) trap sense +6
19. Rogue Talent
20 Weapon Agility (+10 Damage using weapon finesse)
Downside would be that the ranged rogue loses sneak attack, but at the same time having dex be so front and center could mitigate that. Plus, I would add a rogue talent that adds half your weapon ability damage to thrown weapons.
Edit: Oh and monk. I just want something that makes playing the classic unarmed monk as effective as the current single weapon monk. I am actually fairly ok with the class with the changes made, as I think it's defense was always very undervalued.
That change makes the rogue more like a swashbuckler than a classic rogue. If that's the intention then it's more of a fightery design and needs maybe full BAB?
I agree, the monk's defences are fine. It's offence he lacks because of MAD and the craptastic AoMF. If you want, Ciretose, please check out my seperate thread for the monk [urel=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pn0f?Some-Monk-Suggestions-playtested]here[/url].
@Ilja: I agree, the rogue needs to be skills master and not just skills monkey. That's an interesting take on how to do it, too.
For the rogue, how about allowing them to sneak attack anyone that can't perceive them at the start of their round? For example, on the rogues turn, they move out from behind a wall, approach the enemy, and sneak attack. Combined with spring attack, this could make a viable combat tactic.
I think the real key to fixing the monk class is increasing their AC bonus. Perhaps by as much as +1 per 2 levels, and making it NOT work with mage armor, or other armor bonuses. Also, making wholeness of body heal d6 per level or perhaps d8 per 2 levels would really reduce the monks "MADness". The monk could also use the ability as a swift action for half effect or something.
Great stuff in this thread Dabbler and everyone else!
Thanks!
On the subject of the monk, there's a seperate thread here. I don't think monk AC needs adjusting, I've never had an issue with it aside from the usual MADness. The MADness is the big issue, and it needs addressing at the core.
I'm not touching most monk abilities like wholeness of body, because there are options like the Qinggong monk that do away with them. Besides, if I started it would turn into a complete overhaul.
I'd like to point out that my fighter fixes didn't make Fighters all that better in combat from a melee/dpr standpoint.
Giving them scaling feats doesn't allow them to exceed what they can already do. It allows them to do a wider variety of combat stuff...a role that is, right now, the barbarian's with their rage feats.
And levelling otu weapon training just puts them on par with other classes. A barbarian isn't penalized for picking up a new weapon...the fighter should be minimally put off if he switches from sword to bow as well.
Using fighter class features to enhance other defensive/movement based feats is what I like to use. Bravery is a great stand in for any kind of mental training. Armor training is a great stand in for mental and physical agility (int and Dex). And weapon training enhancing Str and Con feats and skills also works perfectly.
YMMV, of course.
==Aelryinth
No, I agree, scaling feats would be great and not just for the fighter...and isn't going to happen until Pathfinder 2.0, if that ever happens, so why raise it?
Weapon training applying like that isn't such a bad idea, I do like it - but I also don't see the need for it. I'm taking a minimalist approach, and from what I have seen and read of, fighter performance in combat isn't broken - and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Using armour training instead of the 'bravery' bonus for physical skills I do like as well, that I'd be happy to incorporate.
I just had a thought for something for the rogue. Not sure if this would be better as an archetype or just added on to the rogue itself (Again, only ever seen 1 rogue in pathfinder, so I'm not the most knowledgeable on how to make it better), but here's my thought:
Underhanded Tactics: At second level, a rogue gains the Improved Dirty Fighting feat, even if she does not qualify for the prerequisites. In addition, if she is flanking the target, or the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, the condition lasts an extra round, and removing the condition requires the target to take a standard action.
[Not so sure about the last part, but I feel like it should be a feasible option even when the rogue could use a sneak attack]
Improved Underhanded Tactics: At 8th level, a rogue gains the Greater Dirty Fighting feat, even if she does not qualify for the prerequisites. In addition, if she is flanking the target, or the target is denied it's Dexterity bonus to AC, the rogue deals 1 damage to the target for each d6 of sneak attack damage she has, and removing the condition requires the target to spend a Full-round action.
[Similar to above, I wanted it to be feasible, even when a rogue could sneak attack]
I know this doesn't provide anything to ranged rogues, which is why I'm thinking it might be better as an archetype, but I think this is very flavorful for rogues, and makes the class a lot more interesting, since you now have the choice between damage and debuffing.
After sleeping on it, I realized that this might still be not quite right. First, rather than class features, these would work better as Talents (and perhaps the Improved version as an advanced talent), since for many builds these don't do much, and while good and flavorful, these are somewhat build dependent. The flaw in this is that I'm not sure if that would really "help" since it means a rogue who wants to use these would have to build around it, forgoing other possibilities.
In addition, I realized, even assuming a build around this (meaning the rogue takes both these talents, and Agile Maneuvers), they simply won't have the CMB to make these worthwhile. Without completely rewriting the CMB rules, I can't think of a good way to fix this, that doesn't load up features onto a single talent.
A possibility would be to make an archetype that focuses on this, that trade class features (off the top of my head, Trap sense springs to mind) for Agile Manuevers and a scaling bonus to CMB and possibly CMD. That way it would still be a build-around, but it would sacrifice fewer resources.
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Could a rogue become a spellcaster through talents? There's already Minor and Major Magic, but neither one really accomplishes much. Perhaps...?
Improved Major Magic: Choose an additional 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard list. You may cast that spell, and the spell you chose for Major Magic, as a spell-like ability a number of times per day each equal to 3 + your Int modifier. In addition, you may now cast the 0-level spell you chose for Minor Magic any number of times per day. You must have the Major Magic rogue talent to select this talent.
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That change makes the rogue more like a swashbuckler than a classic rogue. If that's the intention then it's more of a fightery design and needs maybe full BAB?
If you go full BaB you need less damage or skills. This gives you a class that can focus on a single ability and still do some damage. They are going to hit pretty well in a pure dex build.
It is far from perfect, but I figure throw something down as a baseline and see where we go. I wouldn't mind having some sneak attack bonuses for sniping or flatfooted, but this would give you the bonus all the time without worry about constantly moving to flank.
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rogue needs a pool
i am currently running the Glory Rogue from the Rogue Glory 3rd party book, and at low levels am having a blast. sure, the glory rogue is essentially a DX/CHA build, which is narrow, but for all practical purposes i get a +2 to all important skill checks i am making. this means i have at least a +6 to any single-rank class skill, and also allows me to attempt risky opposed rolls by bringing my stronger skills over the top. it is a small boost that i find makes a big difference.
the Guile Pool of the Glory Rogue has a free feat which is active so long as the rogue has 1+ points in it. specifically, i can make an Improved Feint (as a move action) to pair up in a single round with a single well placed Sneak Attack. this is cool for a rogue with a rapier.
this could lead into an archetype which offers a different 'pool 1+' benefit - for example, i have seen an idea kicked around these threads for a +1 to all 'defenses' (AC, saves). another idea could be Improved Dirty Trick or Improved Steal or Improved Reposition.
advocating for a rogue pool also seems in line with what paizo might consider because they have already done so with the ninja.
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that aside Dabbler, i strongly disagree about giving the rogue a Talent at 1st level. it feels like you propose this as a roundabout way to hand out Weapon Finesse for free. these are two issues that should remain seperate.
one reason against the 1st level talent is that it breaks precedence for menu-option features (like rage powers). a second is it allows a 1-level dip access to rogue talents via 'extra talent' feat.
i'm otherwise at a loss about what to do about the Weapon Finesse thing. maybe grant Medium armor proficiency so that a rogue who values ST over DX can still have a decent AC? maybe roll both Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers into 'finesse rogue' talent? maybe create a rogue talent that allows them DX to damage with a finesse weapon? maybe just grant Weapon Finesse straight up at 1st level?... maybe just eat the single feat tax?...
rogue needs a pool
that aside Dabbler, i strongly disagree about giving the rogue a Talent at 1st level. it feels like you propose this as a roundabout way to hand out Weapon Finesse for free. these are two issues that should remain seperate.
one reason against the 1st level talent is that it breaks precedence for menu-option features (like rage powers). a second is it allows a 1-level dip access to rogue talents via 'extra talent' feat.
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That's fair comment. On the other hand a lot of classes do get their basic class features at first level. Paladins smite, barbarians rage, etc. It struck me as a quick and simple thing to add.
i'm otherwise at a loss about what to do about the Weapon Finesse thing. maybe grant Medium armor proficiency so that a rogue who values ST over DX can still have a decent AC? maybe roll both Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers into 'finesse rogue' talent? maybe create a rogue talent that allows them DX to damage...
Dex to damage is there in the agile weapon property, and there I'd leave it. It's a hell of a contentious issue. Rogues have sneak attack to up their damage output, and their damage output is not half as important as actually hitting the target in the first place.
Could a rogue become a spellcaster through talents? There's already Minor and Major Magic, but neither one really accomplishes much. Perhaps...?
Improved Major Magic: Choose an additional 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard list. You may cast that spell, and the spell you chose for Major Magic, as a spell-like ability a number of times per day each equal to 3 + your Int modifier. In addition, you may now cast the 0-level spell you chose for Minor Magic any number of times per day. You must have the Major Magic rogue talent to select this talent.
That makes it kinda like the Qinggong Monk - it pretends to be a caster, but it's not a caster. It's not even close to being a caster. I mean it can be handy....but no, I don't see a fix the rogue's problems that way.
If you go full BaB you need less damage or skills. This gives you a class that can focus on a single ability and still do some damage. They are going to hit pretty well in a pure dex build.
It is far from perfect, but I figure throw something down as a baseline and see where we go. I wouldn't mind having some sneak attack bonuses for sniping or flatfooted, but this would give you the bonus all the time without worry about constantly moving to flank.
Where you've gone is a swashbuckler class, not a rogue, thinking about it. Let's stick to Sneakey McSneakyness for the moment...
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That's fair comment. On the other hand a lot of classes do get their basic class features at first level. Paladins smite, barbarians rage, etc. It struck me as a quick and simple thing to add.that aside Dabbler, i strongly disagree about giving the rogue a Talent at 1st level. it feels like you propose this as a roundabout way to hand out Weapon Finesse for free. these are two issues that should remain seperate.
one reason against the 1st level talent is that it breaks precedence for menu-option features (like rage powers). a second is it allows a 1-level dip access to rogue talents via 'extra talent' feat.
in my view, like it or not, a rogue's Basic Class Feature is her Sneak Attack.
so, my essential question is, in minimalist-change fashion, "What can be done to make the Sneak Attack feature most at home on a Rogue?"(because it is acknowledged that other splat-classes/archetypes not only steal it but rock it)
my conclusion is that Sneak Attack ought to have more:
1) Applicablity
2) Interactivity
Applicability:
currently, Sneak Attack triggers only on a Flank or a DX-Denial. It has been argued that it ought to trigger as well from certain Conditions. It could be argued that certain Skill checks ought to be able to set it up better (like how Bluff can be used to Feint).
if these ideas are accepted, the question that remains is what Applicability fixes ought to be inherent to Sneak Attack itself as a class feature, (or even, as the rogue's version of the class feature), and which should be optional improvements, such as those chosen through Rogue Talents or even Feats.
Interactivity:
currently, some of the other classes that 'steal' Sneak Attack from the rogue 'rock' it harder because it interacts with with their other class features better - like natural attacks and spells.
The only exclusive way that the rogue can gain class feature synergy is through the various asterisked SA-modifying Rogue Talents (such as Crippling Strike and Slow Reactions). however, per the rules for them, only one of these features may be active for any single attack, and the list of them is pretty short.
a conservative fix could be to allow up to two SA-Talents to be active for a rogue of 10th level or greater. this could be a short addendum to the Advanced Talents class feature.
a liberal fix could be to allow up to one SA-Talent to be active for each full two dice (2d6) of Sneak Attack (minimum one). this could be a short addendum to the Rogue Talents class feature.
either of these fixes could have the provision that an Advanced SA-Talent counts as "two" non-Advanced SA-Talents.
finally, i can think of a fix that included a 'rogue pool' of some sort, whereby each additional SA-Talent applied after the first costs 1 point...
i'm otherwise at a loss about what to do about the Weapon Finesse thing. maybe grant Medium armor proficiency so that a rogue who values ST over DX can still have a decent AC? maybe roll both Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers into 'finesse rogue' talent? maybe create a rogue talent that allows them DX to damage...Dex to damage is there in the agile weapon property, and there I'd leave it. It's a hell of a contentious issue. Rogues have sneak attack to up their damage output, and their damage output is not half as important as actually hitting the target in the first place.
Agile is a weapon property. There is plenty of redundancy between class features, spells, properties, that it wouldn't but breadthen versatility to also allow the essential effects to be available from multiple venues. Given greater liquidity, a rogue could spend their money on a bigger raw to-hit bonus or other expansive effects.
here is a conservative proposal:
Improved Finesse Rogue (Advanced Rogue Talent)
Prerequisites: Finesse Rogue
Benefit: A rogue with this talent may apply her Dexterity modifier to damage in place of her Strength modifier when attacking with a finesse weapon.
cheers.
in my view, like it or not, a rogue's Basic Class Feature is her Sneak Attack.That's fair comment. On the other hand a lot of classes do get their basic class features at first level. Paladins smite, barbarians rage, etc. It struck me as a quick and simple thing to add.that aside Dabbler, i strongly disagree about giving the rogue a Talent at 1st level. it feels like you propose this as a roundabout way to hand out Weapon Finesse for free. these are two issues that should remain seperate.
one reason against the 1st level talent is that it breaks precedence for menu-option features (like rage powers). a second is it allows a 1-level dip access to rogue talents via 'extra talent' feat.
I do not disagree, but if the rogue's special added value to sneak attack (such as the talents I have described above) comes through talents, well logically...they need those talents.
That said, I agree that adding more to sneak attack is not a bad thing, which is what I have already done, and I like your idea of allowing talents to overlap.
As for dex-to-damage, I'm not going there. It's already available, and I do not see rogues as more deserving of it than duelists or monks or dex-based fighters in any other form than it's already available.
That's fair comment. On the other hand a lot of classes do get their basic class features at first level. Paladins smite, barbarians rage, etc. It struck me as a quick and simple thing to add.
The problem is, these basic class features, such as those listed and the Rogues' sneak attack damage generally scale with level, either in uses per day, or power or both, creating an incentive to single class. Any individual Rogue talent, by and large does not. I suppose you could say the same about the fighters' bonus feats, which are their "basic class feature" so to speak, but the layout of feat trees means that a fighter 1/other class X gets less out of it than a Fighter X+1, which the same cannot necessarily be said about rogue talents.
After giving the rogues' problems a look-over, I agree that rogues need to be improved both at level 1 and at successive levels, but a first-level rogue talent, I fear, will only increase the problem, by making a rogue a finesse-build dip, rather than encouraging single classing (or even, for that matter as a base class to build off of).
I am unconvinced that someone wanting an extra feat for weapon finesse would dip rogue over fighter, to be honest. When I've dipped rogue myself it's for two levels, not one - you get the extra rogue talent, and evasion, and you don't lose out on BAB by going for the extra level.
If the talents we give the rogue scale with sneak attack, well that's an incentive to stay with rogue unless the other class has sneak attack as well.
I am unconvinced that someone wanting an extra feat for weapon finesse would dip rogue over fighter, to be honest. When I've dipped rogue myself it's for two levels, not one - you get the extra rogue talent, and evasion, and you don't lose out on BAB by going for the extra level.
I'm not so sure that would always be the case. Already, the way class skills are set up, Dipping 1 level in rogue (assuming the change) vs dipping a level in Fighter could easily mean the difference between +3 on a number of skills (depending on the base class), 1d6 sneak attack(not much, sure, but something), trapfinding (skill bonus would only be +1, but disarming magical traps is big) vs +1 BAB and Armor and Weapon Proficiencies (which depending on the base class might not net much; Armor is unlikely to do much, for a finesse build, and since rogues get rapier and Short sword, the weapon proficiencies mainly means the difference between a longbow and a shortbow as a ranged option, and that's assuming the base class doesn't already grant that)
In other words, it's a toss-up.
On the flip side, if the rogue talents scale with sneak attack then there's little to gain in taking them if you only ever get 1d6 sneak attack.
I'm really not seeing the problem here.
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Rogue (Suggested Fixes)
Rogue Advantage ()
A 1st level rogue selects from the list below a set of conditions which she may use to exploit her opponents' weaknesses. First, a foe who is suffering from the select conditions is vulnerable to the rogue's Sneak Attack ability even if they are not currently flanked nor denied their Dexterity bonus to AC. Further, the rogue gains a competence bonus to all opposed skills checks equal to half her total rogue level (minimum +1) while her foes suffer from such conditions. At 5th level, and again every 4 rogue levels thereafter, she may choose another set of conditions from the list to exploit.
*Compromised - foe is Prone or standing up from Prone.
*Fear - foe is Frightened, Panicked, or Shaken.
*Lethargy - foe is Fatigued or Exhausted.
*Pain - foe is under a Bleed or Pain effect.
*Queasiness - foe is Sickened or Nauseated.
*Restraint - foe is Entangled or Grappled.
*Sensory Deprivation - foe is Dazzled, Deafened, or under temporary loss of a primary sense (Blindsense, etc).
*Shock - foe is Dazed, Disabled, or Staggered.
Rogue Talent ()
As a rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level. A rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.
Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a rogue's sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied for every two full sneak attack dice the rogue possesses to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made.
Advanced Talents ()
At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a rogue can choose one of the following advanced talents in place of a rogue talent.
Advanced talents marked with an asterisk, which add effects to a rogue's sneak attack, count as two talents for the purposes of how many may be applied to a single sneak attack.
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though i am proposing only one new class feature (at 1st level), and two amended class features (at 2nd and 10th levels), for those curious to see the spread of proposals graphically longhand:
Rogue
1- Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding, Rogue Advantage
2- Rogue Talent, Evasion
3- Sneak Attack 2d6, Trap Sense
4- Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
5- Sneak Attack 3d6 (2nd Rogue Advantage)
6- Rogue Talent
7- Sneak Attack 4d6 (double strike)
8- Rogue Talent, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9- Sneak Attack 5d6 (3rd Rogue Advantage)
10 Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent
11 Sneak Attack 6d6 (triple strike)
12 Rogue Talent
13 Sneak Attack 7d6 (4th Rogue Advantage)
14 Rogue Talent
15 Sneak Attack 8d6 (quadruple strike)
16 Rogue Talent
17 Sneak Attack 9d6 (5th Rogue Advantage)
18 Rogue Talent
19 Sneak Attack 10d6 (quintuple strike)
20 Rogue Talent, Master Strike
finally, the following feat:
Brutal Opportunist (combat)
You can take deadly advantage of your foes' unfortunate conditions
Prerequisites: Rogue Advantage, Sneak Attack +2d6
Benefit: You may choose another set of conditions to exploit per the Rogue Advantage ability.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times, each time selecting a new set of conditions.
thoughts?
Why not roll the Advantages into Talents, so the actual text of the rogue doesn't need to be changed and the rogue doesn't need yet another class feature? You could put two conditions into each Talent, taken multiple times as long as you take a different set of conditions each time.
Why not roll the Advantages into Talents, so the actual text of the rogue doesn't need to be changed and the rogue doesn't need yet another class feature? You could put two conditions into each Talent, taken multiple times as long as you take a different set of conditions each time.
this, though I still throw my support behind byrdology's rogue styles as well.
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Why not roll the Advantages into Talents, so the actual text of the rogue doesn't need to be changed and the rogue doesn't need yet another class feature? You could put two conditions into each Talent, taken multiple times as long as you take a different set of conditions each time.
i thought about it. but i want each Talent selection to be special, and doing so would crowd the multiple-effect sneak attack i also propose under my alternate Rogue Talent and Advanced Talents features. i feel that Sneak Attack, for the rogue exclusively, should have an automatic way to expand to scale, and beginning at 1st level. because it is a Main Class Feature that has been stolen by a bunch of spell-casting two-good-save archtypes. for these two reasons primarily i think Rogue Advantage (as proposed) needs to be it's own thing. it adds but two words to the rogue's thoroughly uncluttered class table notwithstanding. the 'frontload' is comparably lighter than bard, cleric, druid, monk, and wizard, and comparable to paladin, ranger, and sorcerer.
besides, my proposal also scales with Opposed Skill Checks (which i admit needs some clarifying what counts as 'opposed'), and as such is a thematic way to restore rogue as the 'king of skills' (especially as compared to the bard).
if anything, my concern would be handing out full sneak attack dice on some pretty trivial conditions...
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Rogues:
Does anyone remember the inspiration mechanic from the 3.5 factotum? I think points for "special" abilities might be great the rogue, by helping him get lucky when it counts - seeing that weak spot on the monster, rerolling a 1 on the chest, making your abilities apply to more enemies etc. Apart from that, just some general work on the talents to get them on the same level. Ways to exploit and especially impose other conditions i.e. through talents would be nice. Some of the newer CMBs like dirty trick or reposition might be more appropriate as rogue abilities.
Fighter:
- replace bravery with conditioning - which would give +1 to all saves every 6 levels, and double that for: fortitude to resist fatigue/forced march, reflex to avoid catapult missiles etc, and will vs fear.
- arms master: lower penalties for weapons the fighter is not proficient with or using them in improvised manner (i.e. bashing someone over the head with the sword hilt for bashing damage), at higher levels essentially making the fighter proficient with anything.
- Improve weapon specialization so it applies to maneuvers.
- Improve armor training so it gives some AC (and fighters don't have to have high dexterity).
- bonus to inititative would be nice considering the fighter should hardly be surprised by a fight.
- 4 skill points would be nice, but optional - i.e. as an archetype or at the cost of one feat as in the PFCS.
In short: more attack, more armor, more combat tricks.
Monk:
I'm drawing a bit of a blank here. Possibly some mechanic for more damage, i.e. "enchanting" his fists or causing an aura effect on his natural attacks and weapons. Ways to move and flurry would also be nice. Maybe expanding the Stunning fist mechanic so the monk gets more ways to buff himself with her strikes as s/he debuffs the enemies? Sadly, most of my ideas seem to step on the toes of the mindblade, psychic warrior and the inquisitor. I'd be quite happy with a psychic monk, tbh.
I get where you are coming from, but I'd rather work with rogue talents myself. Good ideas, though!
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Why not roll the Advantages into Talents, so the actual text of the rogue doesn't need to be changed and the rogue doesn't need yet another class feature? You could put two conditions into each Talent, taken multiple times as long as you take a different set of conditions each time.
This is starting to resemble my previous rogue fix attempt. My homebrewed talents included several that allowed a rogue to sneak attack in new circumstances, including Entangled and Prone.
If we're adding the ability to apply multiple "asterisk talents" to a single sneak attack, that could also be a talent, much like fighters who take critical feats can then take Critical Mastery. If we do that, however, we should have a few extra "asterisk" talents". Here's a few suggestions.
Improved Sneak*
Whenever a rogue with this talent deals Sneak Attack damage, she rolls d8's instead of d6's for the sneak attack damage.
Bloodthirsty Sneak*
When dealing sneak attack damage, the rogue may choose to forgo half the damage dealt by the sneak attack dice. If she does, she gains a number of temporary hit points equal to the forgone damage. This talent does not include the weapon's base damage die, the rogue's Strength modifier (if any), or any other modifiers to the damage roll.
Enthusiastic Sneak*
Whenever the rogue successfully deals sneak attack damage, she may attempt a new saving throw to resist any harmful condition currently affecting her, provided the effect allowed a saving throw originally. In addition, she may forgo any number of her sneak attack dice, up to a number of dice equal to her Dex, Con, or Wis modifier (depending on what type fo saving throw she is attempting) to add that many d4's to her saving throw as a morale bonus.
I love Sneaky Maneuver, that is excelent! I like your ideas too Silent Saturn.
First thing to remember in class redesign is: don't give good stuff away with a dip.
Agreed. But on to streamlining feats: Do you favor Frank Trollman's solution or do you have your own solutions?
Sneaky maneuver sounds nice, but I'd make it either/or - either SA or a bonus to CMB checks (possibly with bonuses). Combat maneuvers almost never do damage in other cases. Sacrificing some bonus dice for other effects is a fair game though, a bit like the fighter critical feats.
Either / or is how combat maneuvers work anyway, except for the critical maneuvers.
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lets take an 8th level DX-based rogue smartly built using my proposals above.
available to them are 4 feats (1/3/5/7) and 4 talents (2/4/6/8).
it is likely that 2 of the feats went to Weapon Finesse (so as to be an effective combatant), and either Iron Will or Great Fortitude (to shore up a weakness in the saving throws department).
their sneak attack is 4d6.
per my Rogue Talents proposal, they take two 'strike talents' so as to add some utility to their main class feature. (they have the option to take three 'strike talents' and rotate which two they use depending on the situation - fun!)
per Rogue Advantage, they have the ability to take advantage of a short list of about 5 conditions which they can customize their build to provide by itself, or that they can rely on their allies to create; likely both. this broadens the scope of when their sneak attack class feature comes into play.
this leaves about 2 feats and 2 talents for further (even frivolous) customization.
...
the point i'm trying to illustrate is that the rogue already is challenged to have some free design space without half-sacrificing some very essential functions (to-hit bonus, save bonuses, broader usage of class features).
the whole 'just make it a talent' argument merely exacerbates this issue.
I also have a fix for the big three, HERE.
My view of the themes are
- Fighter is a Sun Tzu type... a true student of war and an elite combatant. To fit the "purely natural elite trained" approach, I gave 4 skill ranks, and added the two SunTzu style knowledge skills as class skills: Know Geography, and Know History.
Further, an elite warrior of a magic world would study monsters and special abilities of all kinds, so I gave bonuses to knowledge checks reflecting that.
Lastly, to steal from Musashi's Book of Five Rings, "to know one thing is to know ten thousand things", and apply principles of battle to life, the fighter also gets additional bonus (NON-COMBAT) feats from a short list picked from the main book.
- The Rogue's theme is unchanged (adventuring crime specialist and spy and JOAT), but the class' flaws are purely combat, I find. Out of combat the Rogue is fine, having the ranks to max out alot of useful skills. If the Rogue got some decent rogue-ish combat ability, then talents and feats wouldn't all have to be burned up to make them combat un-sucky. So I gave them a pick from a handful of Combat Styles. Fewer feats than a Ranger, and the feats are more Rogue-ish and a bit comical (for example the "Coward" combat style list includes the Run feat).
The other thing about Rogues is that my personal peeve is the unspoken rule: "To make SA worthwhile thou must build for TWF" which ALSO means "To make SA worthwhile thou must stand still and full attack"... ugh! I hate that, so I mitigated it by doubling SA on a standard action at level 6 (the same level where warriors get vital strike).
- The Monk's theme is a mystical, superhuman martial artist. All well and good... but their problem is lack of synergy between movement and offense. So full BAB to allow decent charging and ... well, giving a pounce ability is probably too much, but if it costs Ki... so there's my fix for that.
Also, the whole "monk weapon" concept is just plain outdated, and also forces specially made weapons to beat DR... I mean when do holy cold iron nunchucks appear in a demon hunting campaign, except as GM fiat to make up for class suck? It's just dumb. So flurry and the like now work with any proficiency from race or from feat (not from other classes tho). Now nonhuman Monks get to flurry with nice things (flurry of longsword, or longbow, for Elves), and a Human can burn that extra feat on Weapon Proficiency Glaive for a monk to give some flavor and an alternative to the stereotypical "OMG look at that unarmed damage" followed by "why oh WHY did I build for unarmed strike!"
Lastly, I look at Ki, then I look at spells, then I look back an Ki, then spells again... and I decide that for all you can do with Ki, and compare it to what you can do with spells, let's let the Monk get more Ki per day... via meditation. Yes the limitation on meditating is CON-based, yes I know it adds more MAD, but what d8 hitdie frontliner in their right mind has a CON of 10?
I also have a fix for the big three, HERE.
I'd like to add another post to point out some "easter egg" exploits from these.
Fighter: the bonus feats include Persuasive and Skill Focus (which can be Intimidate).
For a fighter who follows the Dazzling Display feat chain, that's a +5 bonus to intimidate, or +10 at level ten. Sweet, no?
Another nice one is Deceitful and Skill Focus Bluff. Now even if Bluff isn't a class skill, that +5 and/or +10 more than makes up for it, allowing Feint to be a valid choice for a fighter. Especially if they like a flat-footed enemy to ensure they hit with PowerAttack and/or CombatExpertise in play.
A gish-ey build can include Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus (UMD). Does +5\+10 to UMD look like an okay class ability for a warrior type? I think so.
Rogue: Some of the combat styles look lame at first, but look at the fine print - when using combat style feats, calculate CMB (and CMD) as if the Rogue levels had full BAB.
- Cheater gets full BAB Trip and/or Dirty Trick, without needing Combat Expertise
- Cheater gets full BAB Steal and/or Disarm, without needing Combat Expertise
- Thug can use SA when unarmed, even *stun* them on an AoO, which may give them a full round of SA on a stunned enemy (depending on how your GM looks at "stunned 1 round"), oh and the option of full BAB grapple.
- Coward gets Skill Focus Bluff... this is a combat skill for 2 reasons: Feint and Distract, which are both combat-worthy. The other feats are also modestly helpful for movement and escape.
- Showoff is a fun choice, with Dazzling Display and Skill Focus Intimidate; 30' radius of potential flatfooted foes (if you pick Shatter Defenses) is a Rogue's wet dream.
- Killer is the obvious choice many new rogue players will make, not realizing the potential of the above styles.
Monk: Being able to Flurry with all Monk+Race+Feat proficient weapons means any Monk can do a Flurry of Spear right away, enjoying the damage bonus from strength with a two-handed weapon. With Quickdraw a Monk can do Flurry of Javelins, and with Rapid Reload a Monk can even do Flurry of Light Crossbow. Cute, hey?
2 Ki to do a charging pounce with flurry of spear ... ahh it almost makes it worth taking Improved Crit - spear for that delicious 1d8/19-20x3 goodness.
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the point i'm trying to illustrate is that the rogue already is challenged to have some free design space without half-sacrificing some very essential functions (to-hit bonus, save bonuses, broader usage of class features).
the whole 'just make it a talent' argument merely exacerbates this issue.
I do get that, which is one reason I'd add a talent at first level, and argue that the talents have to be stronger. However, I am not looking at a re-write of the glass. Which means the quick & dirty fix is to add rogue talents and make them better, because it has minimal impact on existing stat-blocks.
You can go nuts on changes. The idea of this thread is trying changes that Paizo may actually consider implementing without going to a second edition.
I also have a fix for the big three, HERE.[/url]
Interesting ideas, some of which I have used, some I never would.
My view of the themes are
- Fighter is a Sun Tzu type... a true student of war and an elite combatant. To fit the "purely natural elite trained" approach, I gave 4 skill ranks, and added the two SunTzu style knowledge skills as class skills: Know Geography, and Know History.
Further, an elite warrior of a magic world would study monsters and special abilities of all kinds, so I gave bonuses to knowledge checks reflecting that.
Lastly, to steal from Musashi's Book of Five Rings, "to know one thing is to know ten thousand things", and apply principles of battle to life, the fighter also gets additional bonus (NON-COMBAT) feats from a short list picked from the main book.
This describes one kind of fighter, and a monk-like fighter at that. The idea of the fighter, to me, is that he can be used to build any kind of warrior you want to play. There should be viable options for tacticians, swashbucklers, brutes, tribal warriors, sophisticated elites, you name it.
The problem as I see it is that the fighter (even with archetypes) lacks the flexibility to fulfil all of these satisfactorily. Not necessarily in combat (and in combat, it can be fixed by creating the correct feats) but out of it.
Fighter is great in combat, needs more out-of-combat versatility.
- The Rogue's theme is unchanged (adventuring crime specialist and spy and JOAT), but the class' flaws are purely combat, I find. Out of combat the Rogue is fine, having the ranks to max out alot of useful skills. If the Rogue got some decent rogue-ish combat ability, then talents and feats wouldn't all have to be burned up to make them combat un-sucky. So I gave them a pick from a handful of Combat Styles. Fewer feats than a Ranger, and the feats are more Rogue-ish and a bit comical (for example the "Coward" combat style list includes the Run feat).
I agree, the rogue needs more utility away from his speciality, and he needs more combat ability. I don't think he needs combat styles, I think he needs combat options and flexibility options in his talents.
The other thing about Rogues is that my personal peeve is the unspoken rule: "To make SA worthwhile thou must build for TWF" which ALSO means "To make SA worthwhile thou must stand still and full attack"... ugh! I hate that, so I mitigated it by doubling SA on a standard action at level 6 (the same level where warriors get vital strike).
Yes, that TWF thing is a red herring if ever there was one. TWFing is weak and for the rogue, it may up the damage potential but what you gain in attacks you lose in actual hits. I don't think the rogue needs tpo be a TWF specialist, like you I think he needs to have the option to make his hits count even if he can only make one.
...
- The Monk's theme is a mystical, superhuman martial artist. All well and good... but their problem is lack of synergy between movement and offense. So full BAB to allow decent charging and ... well, giving a pounce ability is probably too much, but if it costs Ki... so there's my fix for that.
I think the move/attack problem is systemic of Pathfinder, not the monk alone. The monk's MAD, low enhancement, and DR issues are his specific problem.
I think the move/attack problem is systemic of Pathfinder, not the monk alone. The monk's MAD, low enhancement, and DR issues are his specific problem.
While I kind of agree, I think the problem is more that the monk is built to be a mobile fighter in a system that doesn't encourage it. By fixing MAD, low enhancement and DR issues, you might make the monk better as a class, but not better at what the monk is built to do. I think something that would improve monks immensely is the ability to increase their 5-foot step distance, which plays both into the mobility that is indicative of a monk, but also allows full attacking which both the system, and the monk's FoB require.
The problem with some monk fixes that I've seen is that they look at the problem being solely the numbers and the damage output and the fact that their AC pales in comparison to front-line fighters. Yes, I agree this needs work, but this isn't the primary concern of the monk; The primary thing that I think a monk needs is the ability to be mobile, even when full attacking. Sure the monk may not be able to get the damage output of a Fighter, but they can tie-down the spellcaster with Stunning fist (and allowing the rogue to get in a sneak attack, or allowing the fighter to wreak havoc on the poor wizard), then 15-foot (or whatever distance) step to finish his flurry of blows against the archer, to tie him down. Or they could flurry of blows against an enemy fighter, then 15-foot step away, to prevent the fighter from getting to full attack back (thus somewhat negating the lower AC/HP).
My monk suggestions are here, along with record of the play-testing I am doing with them.
I've tried to take emphasis away from damage output to the monk's real problems of hitting, and getting through DR. When they can do this other factors can start to take effect, like stunning fist. I also added the following amendment in ki-pool:
3c) In addition, he can spend 1 point to move 20 feet in a swift action.
Also I think the monk is not just a mobile fighter - he's supposed to be able to get behind enemy lines, as you say, and tie down foes, or else be 'everywhere at once' in the party, shoring up weak points. He is also supposed to be a mystic warrior, an unarmed expert, and a sage. He's meant to go it alone at times.
His big problem here has been that his offensive capacity does not match his hype to achieve this. He's got a number of minor issues that all add up to cripple his attack bonus and reduce his damage output to the point where enemies can afford to ignore him. The more he brings damage up, the more of a glass cannon he becomes - only he's never that good a cannon.
- Cheater gets full BAB Trip and/or Dirty Trick, without needing Combat Expertise
- Cheater gets full BAB Steal and/or Disarm, without needing Combat Expertise
Bah!
Since it's too late to edit this post, I'd like to fix a typo.The quote should instead be...
- Cheater gets full BAB Trip and/or Dirty Trick, without needing Combat Expertise
- Thief gets full BAB Steal and/or Disarm, without needing Combat Expertise
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Dabbler, do you think adding a 'pool' to the rogue at 2nd level is out of the scope of what paizo might consider? in a way, in as far as the ninja is an informal achkowledgement/rewrite of the undercontributing rogue class (as written), they have indeed already done so!
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Luck Pool: (Ex)
At 2nd level, a rogue gains a pool of luck points, an extraordinary reserve of improvisational wits and prowess she can use to accomplish feats of great cunning. The number of points in a rogue's luck pool is equal to 1/2 her rogue level plus either her Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier. She must choose which ability score will govern her luck pool upon receiving it at 2nd level, and once selected this cannot be changed.
As long as she has at least 1 point in her luck pool, a rogue gains a +1 luck bonus to her AC and to her saving throws. This bonus rises by +1 at 6th level, and again every 4 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.
A rogue may spend one point from her luck pool as an immediate action to gain an advantage against a foe suffering from one of the following conditions: Dazed, Dazzled, Deafened, Disabled, Entangled, Exhausted, Fatigued, Frightened, Grappled, Nauseated, Panicked, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, or Staggered. She may make a single sneak attack against such a foe (without having to meet the standard prerequisites), or she may take a +1 bonus on a single opposed skill check for every 2 rogue levels she has attained. If the attack roll misses or the opposed skill check fails, she still loses the luck point.
The luck pool is repleneshed each morning after 8 hours of sleep or rest; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
I love the idea, but it's basically another re-write of the rogue core class, so no, I don't think Paizo would go for it. If you could write it as talents, the way rogues may get access to ki with a talent, then it might work though.
Dabbler, do you think adding a 'pool' to the rogue at 2nd level is out of the scope of what paizo might consider? in a way, in as far as the ninja is an informal achkowledgement/rewrite of the undercontributing rogue class (as written), they have indeed already done so!
[...]
The luck pool is repleneshed each morning after 8 hours of sleep or rest; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
I did something similar, but used the "grit" mechanics instead (as a guile pool). There are a few other talents I'm experimenting with, some of which are just converted Deeds from the gunslinger, but the following should give a general idea.
Rogue Talents
Deadly Precision (Ex)* When the rogue hits a target with a one-handed or light melee weapon, she can spend 1 guile point to deal additional precision damage on a hit. This precision damage is equal to one-half her total sneak attack dice (minimum 1d6). If she misses with the attack, she grazes the target, dealing half the extra damage anyway. She must choose to spend the guile point before she makes the attack roll. This is precision damage and is not multiplied if the attack is a critical hit. This precision damage not stack with sneak attack. but does stack with other forms of precision damage.
Guile (Ex) A rogue gains a pool of guile points she can use to accomplish amazing feats. In game terms, guile is a fluctuating measure of a rogue’s ability to perform amazing actions in combat. At the start of each day, a rogue gains a number of guile points equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). Her guile goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Charisma modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. A rogue spends guile to use certain talents, and regains guile in the following ways.
Critical Hit: Each time the rogue confirms a critical hit with an attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 guile point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the rogue’s character level does not restore guile.
Killing Blow: When the rogue reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with an attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 guile point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the rogue’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any guile.
Trapfinding, Improved (Ex)* A rogue can disable intricate and complex devices in half the normal amount of time (minimum 1 round) and open a lock as a standard action. As long as the rogue has at least 1 guile point, she can take 10 on Disable Device checks, even if distracted or endangered.
I see one major problem with trying to fix the Rogue with Rogue talents, and that is that Rogue talents aren't just for Rogues. They have been stolen by the Ninja and the hated (by me at least) Archaeologist. So anything you do to make the Rogue better with talents, is just going to make those classes more powerful as well.
I made my own suggestions for a Rogue fix in this thread a while back.
It's not listed in the thread, but I also give everyone Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers for free as a house rule. Then I created a new Weapon Finesse feat that gives a flat +2 to damage with finesse weapons.
I see one major problem with trying to fix the Rogue with Rogue talents, and that is that Rogue talents aren't just for Rogues. They have been stolen by the Ninja and the hated (by me at least) Archaeologist. So anything you do to make the Rogue better with talents, is just going to make those classes more powerful as well.
I don't have a problem with the ninja having access to them, after all he is essentially an archetype of rogue. The Archaeologist bard archetype, though, that's an issue I didn't think of. Of course the quick and dirty fix is to place prerequisites of rogue levels in the new talents, in fact that's about the only fix I can think of that keeps the archaeologist's tomb-raiding mitts off them.
I made my own suggestions for a Rogue fix in this thread a while back.
Some nice ideas there, but as I said I'm not looking for a re-write, which I know is certainly one answer.
It's not listed in the thread, but I also give everyone Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers for free as a house rule. Then I created a new Weapon Finesse feat that gives a flat +2 to damage with finesse weapons.
Something I think any Pathfinder 2.0 should have. I don't think there will be a Pathfinder 2.0 any time soon though.
@Da'ath - I like your talents, especially the Guile pool.