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What deity (god, archdevil etc...) would you consider to be Asmodeus greatest enemy?
I am making a character for an upcoming campaign and part of the background is that he opposes Cheliax and I want to incorporate the character as being a follower / supported by a being that has a beef with Asmodeus / Cheliax.
Judging from their history in Book of the Damned 1: Princes of Darkness, definitely Sarenrae. He killed her creator and she harbors vengeance against him.
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Seconding Sarenae, and Milani in terms of Cheliax.
That said, in the context of Cheliax, Iomadae is also up there, since her faith is still openly accepted within their borders.
In fact, there's an opportunity for savvy LG members of Iomadae's faith to be very subversive against Asmodeus's influence in certain contexts.
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It sounds like you're not actually looking for a good deity. Ragathiel is LG and all about Chivalry and righteous vengeance. That doesn't exactly make him ulterior-motive guy.
Yeah that is true...
I was just throwing it out there.
I just read his entry and it seemed to leave room for it being that he is actually the son of Dispater. It would seem interesting if not perhaps a little over the top if he had a secret agenda.
If he does, it wont be anything that isn't in line with his portfolio.
So probably still not quite what you're looking for.
Have you considered someone like Abadar?
If you want this deity to trick someone into believing they are doing the work of a good deity, then your deity doesn't need to be good at all, right? Actually, most likely no good deities would want to trick someone into believing they're doing the work of any other good deity.
You could consider someone like Lamashtu to be among Asmodeus's greatest enemies, given that demons and devils very rarely see eye-to-eye. Plus, according to Gods and Magic, Lamashtu is one of three deities Asmodeus is not willing to work with, alongside Calistria and Rovagug.
ROVAGUG !!!
At least in that he's pretty much the enemy of everyone and everything.
Except rocks.
No wait, even rocks hate Rovagug.
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If you want this deity to trick someone into believing they are doing the work of a good deity, then your deity doesn't need to be good at all, right? Actually, most likely no good deities would want to trick someone into believing they're doing the work of any other good deity.
You could consider someone like Lamashtu to be among Asmodeus's greatest enemies, given that demons and devils very rarely see eye-to-eye. Plus, according to Gods and Magic, Lamashtu is one of three deities Asmodeus is not willing to work with, alongside Calistria and Rovagug.
Actually, after reading this, I'd totally recommend Calistria. She'd have lots of reasons to want big A to suck it.
I would say the entire Abyss. If my cosmology is correct, Asmodeus and hell in general are in a war of attrition with the demons of the abyss. While the abyss has power in numbers and similar might, Hell is more ordered. The Abyss is too busy infighting to form an effective attack against Hell due to their chaotic nature.
Though Asmodeus is kind of the biggest bad guy out there- He was cast out of the upper planes after pissing off the entire good community, and he survived. He is a master tactician and manipulator. If I include asmodeus, he is going to win in the end. He did it at the dawn of time, and he's only gained experience since then.
Hell, if I wanted a real world-shaping story, I might have a new force in the Abyss gathering demons and getting them ordered for an attack on Hell. The demons, in the end, would use their numbers and new sense of focus to overrun Hell and "kill" asmodeus. Here's the hook- Asmodeus himself ordered the demons, and in doing so slowly inoculated them with Law, sacrificing his smaller kingdom to transform the Abyss into his new Hell.
Actually the Blood war between devils and demons doesn't really exist in Pathfinder. Also it's debatable how much Asmodeus was actually kicked out of Hell...although so far we have only his side of the story.
I will support the early post. Sarenae is pretty much the archrival of Asmodeus, as she was the protege to Asmodeus's brother, who he murdered, and whose place she took.
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For the character concept, I would recommend Calistria who has no love for Asmodeus, particularly the misogyny in his cult. (I am not sure what version of the mythology of Golarion is correct in regards to Asmodeus and Sarenrae.)
However, I think that the worst enemy that Asmodeus has is Rovagug. There can be no compromise with Rovagug.
I agree that Sarenrae would be an obvious choice for archrival, but she would have no reason to use subterfuge to get people to work for her against Asmodeus (as the OP appeared to want based on his second post).
After all, Sarenrae is the god of honesty, which alone should place that type of plan far outside her repertoire :)
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Actually, after reading this, I'd totally recommend Calistria. She'd have lots of reasons to want big A to suck it.If you want this deity to trick someone into believing they are doing the work of a good deity, then your deity doesn't need to be good at all, right? Actually, most likely no good deities would want to trick someone into believing they're doing the work of any other good deity.
You could consider someone like Lamashtu to be among Asmodeus's greatest enemies, given that demons and devils very rarely see eye-to-eye. Plus, according to Gods and Magic, Lamashtu is one of three deities Asmodeus is not willing to work with, alongside Calistria and Rovagug.
Probably literally.
Milani or Sarenrae seems to be your best choices from my standing.
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It sounds like you're not actually looking for a good deity. Ragathiel is LG and all about Chivalry and righteous vengeance. That doesn't exactly make him ulterior-motive guy.
Actually I could see Ragathiel working out. The character would just have to be more focused on the vengence aspect of the faith. I could see a character being part of a slightly more violent mystery cult, focusing on Ragathiel's wild and raging hatred believing that in order to good for their god they must act as the hand of vengeance using all their followers bitter rage for the forces of good and smiting their enemies. In that context burning down the church of Asmodeus (and whatever part of cheliax decides to stand in his way) might make sense. Suffice it to say your guy would probably be more on the LN side of his worshipers. Also you could get some really fun dynamics when/if he runs into other followers who might have a less extreme interpretation of the faith.
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It sounds like you're not actually looking for a good deity. Ragathiel is LG and all about Chivalry and righteous vengeance. That doesn't exactly make him ulterior-motive guy.Actually I could see Ragathiel working out. The character would just have to be more focused on the vengence aspect of the faith. I could see a character being part of a slightly more violent mystery cult, focusing on Ragathiel's wild and raging hatred believing that in order to good for their god they must act as the hand of vengeance using all their followers bitter rage for the forces of good and smiting their enemies. In that context burning down the church of Asmodeus (and whatever part of cheliax decides to stand in his way) might make sense. Suffice it to say your guy would probably be more on the LN side of his worshipers. Also you could get some really fun dynamics when/if he runs into other followers who might have a less extreme interpretation of the faith.
In that case, however, you're really asserting that the character is taking an aspect of the God's faith and using an ostensibly good cause as justification to indulge in its darker aspects of their own accord, rather than the posited concept of a deity tricking a character down a dark path in the name of a good cause.
You're not really making the argument that the LG Empyreal Lord in question is actually encouraging the character down a darker path in the name of a good cause, since it's explicitly the character choosing to focus on the darker aspect of the doctrine.
Deities, like characters, don't get to encourage evil and maintain a good alignment. Ragathiel is LG. Ergo, he cannot encourage vengeance without the aspects of chivalry and temperance that allow that aspect to remain a part of his LG doctrine.
Now if the character wishes to focus on that,that's fine, but it can't really be argued that the deity is using a good cause to lead a character down a darker path of ulterior motive.
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Exactly. So perhaps it would a 'ripe' scenario for some Evil God to infiltrate/manipulate some small cult/church of Ragathiel into doing their dirty work for them (all the while receiving Ragathiel's powers, since nobody's the wiser as to the true motive), but it wouldn't really be Ragathiel's doing... Could be interesting when Ragathiel (or his followers) find out what's going on, and decides to show Ragathiel's true feelings on the matter. Any of the cult/church followers who were drawn deep enough into the misguided 'vengeance' plot that they won't abandon it would sooner or later lose their powers (if they had any, i.e. cleric/inquisitor/paladin), at which point they may be persuaded to switch their worship to the manipulator Deity... or they must just go psycho and fight anybody and everybody using just their own capacities.
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It sounds like you're not actually looking for a good deity. Ragathiel is LG and all about Chivalry and righteous vengeance. That doesn't exactly make him ulterior-motive guy.Actually I could see Ragathiel working out. The character would just have to be more focused on the vengence aspect of the faith. I could see a character being part of a slightly more violent mystery cult, focusing on Ragathiel's wild and raging hatred believing that in order to good for their god they must act as the hand of vengeance using all their followers bitter rage for the forces of good and smiting their enemies. In that context burning down the church of Asmodeus (and whatever part of cheliax decides to stand in his way) might make sense. Suffice it to say your guy would probably be more on the LN side of his worshipers. Also you could get some really fun dynamics when/if he runs into other followers who might have a less extreme interpretation of the faith.In that case, however, you're really asserting that the character is taking an aspect of the God's faith and using an ostensibly good cause as justification to indulge in its darker aspects of their own accord, rather than the posited concept of a deity tricking a character down a dark path in the name of a good cause.
You're not really making the argument that the LG Empyreal Lord in question is actually encouraging the character down a darker path in the name of a good cause, since it's explicitly the character choosing to focus on the darker aspect of the doctrine.
Deities, like characters, don't get to encourage evil and maintain a good alignment. Ragathiel is LG. Ergo, he cannot encourage vengeance without the aspects of chivalry and temperance that allow that aspect to remain a part of his LG doctrine.
Now if the character wishes to focus on that,that's fine, but it can't really be argued that the deity is using a good cause to lead a character down a darker path of...
I was picturing something more akin to a splinter sect of the faith that goes down a more violent path. To be fair you can be within one step and be fine and LN does do that. He would be like a reverse of the Zon-Kuthon cleric from shattered star 4 where he is still a follower just with some radical views. Most of the larger chunk of his faith may not like him but he is still a follower and it might lead to some interesting roleplay if it all goes off right. I mean if we can have a Zon-Kuthon cleric who believes that his god absorbed an elder god esque monster in order to protect mankind I think we could have a follower of Ragathiel who believes that sometimes vengeance is the only thing that matters. Also the redemption angle when he finds the errors in his execution could be fantastic. I mean he gets to ask god for forgiveness and become even more bad ass then before.
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Exactly. So perhaps it would a 'ripe' scenario for some Evil God to infiltrate/manipulate some small cult/church of Ragathiel into doing their dirty work for them (all the while receiving Ragathiel's powers, since nobody's the wiser as to the true motive), but it wouldn't really be Ragathiel's doing... Could be interesting when Ragathiel (or his followers) find out what's going on, and decides to show Ragathiel's true feelings on the matter. Any of the cult/church followers who were drawn deep enough into the misguided 'vengeance' plot that they won't abandon it would sooner or later lose their powers (if they had any, i.e. cleric/inquisitor/paladin), at which point they may be persuaded to switch their worship to the manipulator Deity... or they must just go psycho and fight anybody and everybody using just their own capacities.
DUDE! It could even be Dispater, out to once again show his son the foolishness of this "dalliance" with good.
Sorry moment of nerdgasm happend
Anyways remember that Ragathiel is still a god of vengeance as much as chivalry so a cult dedicated to that aspect isn't out of the question. Remember that part of Ragathiel's backstory is his constant war with the devilish rage that stews in his heart so a cult that is more devoted to using it towards something positive (even if it's just them that do) would be pretty cool and in line with his ethos.
Cayden Cailean, with his anarchic views and opposition to tyranny, seems like the natural fit.
Apart from Asmodeus himself*, Norgorber has always struck me as a "wheels within wheels" kind of God. If you were looking for an evil god masquerading as a good one for some inscrutable purpose, that's who I'd choose.
I second Norgorber. He's a sneaky one, and so are his followers.
Third for Norgorber. He's mysterious.
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Terribly mysterious.
Me and my pal imagined him robbing Mammon's little treasury on occasion.
That, and just ticking off both demons and devils with his little antics in general.
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Norgorber wants to (re)ignite the Blood War so that Demons and Devils weaken each other, while he will be stealthily increasing his own power at their expenses.
Masquerading as a Herald of Lamashtu, he convinces one of her cults to act against Asmodeus in a very stealthy way, by sponsoring a hero who they will trick into believing that he is acting for the forces of Good.
Asmodean forces looking into the character's network of accomplices will end up believing that Lamashtu is trying to weaken their god. Because it is what Demons do, you know.
Norgorber wants to (re)ignite the Blood War so that Demons and Devils weaken each other, while he will be stealthily increasing his own power at their expenses.
Masquerading as a Herald of Lamashtu, he convinces one of her cults to act against Asmodeus in a very stealthy way, by sponsoring a hero who they will trick into believing that he is acting for the forces of Good.
Asmodean forces looking into the character's network of accomplices will end up believing that Lamashtu is trying to weaken their god. Because it is what Demons do, you know.
This is actually really sweet. Nice one, TBR.
I would point out, however, that this is exactly Calistria's MO, too. She's done this with demons before (to get Desna off the hook), so I wouldn't be surprised if she did so again.
Point in fact, being the goddess of lust and trickery, I'm sure she has ways of manipulating Norgorber, with or without him knowing it (and even if his 'tastes' are extremely... 'specific', let's say).
To be clear, I'd suspect that Norgorber would know that Calistria is manipulating him (he is a god of secrets, after all - kind of hard* to out-secret that), but that doesn't mean she couldn't still trick or entice him for reasons of her own.
Lamashtu wouldn't care too much, as she'd be willing to do more or less the same thing, if she had a desire or drive to do so. And if she did get ticked off, she'd be irritated with her fury would go toward her own herald.
That cult would likely all be wearing Disks of Secrets, though, that also grant them undetectable alignment once per day.
* Though given PF deities, probably not impossible!
EDIT: to be clear, I'm not saying, "my idea is better than yours", I'm offering one other option to include more layers. Alternatively, Norgorber could be cut in favor of Calistria, if the OP prefers. Really, since it's his game, I'm just trying to provide some more options and ways of looking at it. :)
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Rovagug is not a god known for his subtlety (or however you spell it).
He's less about "I am going to trick this person to do something wrong to weaken this diety" to "SMASH KILL DESTROY"
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...It sounds like you're not actually looking for a good deity. Ragathiel is LG and all about Chivalry and righteous vengeance. That doesn't exactly make him ulterior-motive guy.Actually I could see Ragathiel working out. The character would just have to be more focused on the vengence aspect of the faith. I could see a character being part of a slightly more violent mystery cult, focusing on Ragathiel's wild and raging hatred believing that in order to good for their god they must act as the hand of vengeance using all their followers bitter rage for the forces of good and smiting their enemies. In that context burning down the church of Asmodeus (and whatever part of cheliax decides to stand in his way) might make sense. Suffice it to say your guy would probably be more on the LN side of his worshipers. Also you could get some really fun dynamics when/if he runs into other followers who might have a less extreme interpretation of the faith.In that case, however, you're really asserting that the character is taking an aspect of the God's faith and using an ostensibly good cause as justification to indulge in its darker aspects of their own accord, rather than the posited concept of a deity tricking a character down a dark path in the name of a good cause.
You're not really making the argument that the LG Empyreal Lord in question is actually encouraging the character down a darker path in the name of a good cause, since it's explicitly the character choosing to focus on the darker aspect of the doctrine.
Deities, like characters, don't get to encourage evil and maintain a good alignment. Ragathiel is LG. Ergo, he cannot encourage vengeance without the aspects of chivalry and temperance that allow that aspect to remain a part of his LG doctrine.
Now if the character wishes to focus on that,that's fine, but it can't really be argued that the deity is using a good cause to lead
Ah, okay, you're talking about a follower emphasizing a particular aspect of the faith that happens to be darker in isolation, rather than the god pushing them down a dark path.
Here's an even cooler idea: Ragathiel sees this soul's desire for vengeance and reaches out to him, pushing their darker urges in the direction of light, all the while whispering a conscience into his ears.
"Broken man, I hear your rage. Follow me, and I will lead you to the great flames. I will take hammer and fire to your soul, until the furnace has blasted away the impurities that cloud your righteous heart. Come with me, mortal, and just as I was raised from Hell to virtuous heights, I will make of your black iron a shining sword."
Hey, if Evil Deities can use your dark impulses to lead you to wickedness, surely Gods of good can trick you into becoming more righteous.
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Norgorber wants to (re)ignite the Blood War so that Demons and Devils weaken each other, while he will be stealthily increasing his own power at their expenses.
The problem with that is that, to the best of my knowledge, the Pathfinder multiverse never had a Blood War to reignite. Devils and demons may not be the best of buddies, but their goals aren't completely incompatible, and in most instances, it would be easier for them to ignore each other or even briefly work together than to start a pointless cycle of killing each other for no good reason, which only serves to distract them from their actual goals.
That cult would likely all be wearing Disks of Secrets, though, that also grant them undetectable alignment once per day.One level dip in Inquisitor (Infiltrator archetype) works wonderfully here. And a second level lets you cast Good spells too ;-)
Very true!
Norgorber wants to (re)ignite the Blood War so that Demons and Devils weaken each other, while he will be stealthily increasing his own power at their expenses.The problem with that is that, to the best of my knowledge, the Pathfinder multiverse never had a Blood War to reignite. Devils and demons may not be the best of buddies, but their goals aren't completely incompatible, and in most instances, it would be easier for them to ignore each other or even briefly work together than to start a pointless cycle of killing each other for no good reason, which only serves to distract them from their actual goals.
I think the idea TBR was getting at with the "(re)" in parenthesis was that while it doesn't exist in PF's outer spheres yet, it used to exist in the older editions. At least that was how I read it (give that a parenthetical looks like it's meant to be optional).
Though you are correct that, in PF-verse, the demons and devils don't actually have a blood war. It would be quite interesting if someone started one, however... and enormously useful for the "good guys". Of course if Asmodeus is too "ticked off" such that he unleashes Rovagug, this could backfire in Norgorber's face, but I don't think big A would do such a thing over something so "minor" as an eternal war between devils and demons. That is, after all, just a minor set back.
Nyarlathotep.
But he shows up as someone else. Or you're some kind of sociopath cultist of the Crawling Chaos, which means no one can use allignment to detect you as good.
That said, almost any god ought to be able to send power to anyone and they ought to be able to do so quietly. As long as you stay out of the churches etc of the deity, no one should notice that your powers (paladin/cleric/oracle).
Or it's Asmodeus because he thinks it's funny/has a plan.
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@Tacticslion. Indeed, you got my idea. Except that I did not imagine that Norgorber would be successful in pulling this all the way to a full Blood War. The fact that both Demons and Devils have a representative among the Greater Gods and the Rovagug threat hanging over everybody's head would prevent it IMO.
But the God of Secrets and Murder could still use the tumult to stealthily advance his various nefarious plans.
