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Right now, the sword attacks are loosely based on some actual broadsword fencing maneuvers. Lee and I were looking through a German fencing manual and were both like, "there's a historical attack called 'Wrath Guard'? That's totally going in!"
Joachim Meyer's Treatise on Longsword, if I can venture a guess? Or are you looking at his Dussack manual? Because when you say "broadsword" I'm not actually sure what you're referring to because that's kind of a, er, broad (no pun intended) museum-type term designating whether it primarily cuts or thrusts as far as I can make out.
Fiore de'i Liberi calls the same guard (in longsword) Posta di Donna, or Woman's Guard. I agree that the German translation sounds better, but I'm biased since my training is all in the German tradition. However, to be fair, I'd suggest the Italian "Boar's Tooth" (Dente di Zenghiaro) to the German "Plow" (Pflug). No harm in shopping around for the coolest-sounding terms.
Hopefully it winds up feeling close enough that fighting reenactors don't think we're abusing the terminology :) . So that's to say that "Wrath" isn't really a game mechanical prefix.
Looking at the blog, Wrath Guard and Wrathful Strike seem reasonable to the terminology/technique I know (Zornhau and Zornhut, respectively). Though, from the German manuals, if a Wrath Strike (Zornhau) is performed "masterfully" it ends at another guard and does not leave one undefended. Maybe with the right feats, eh?
"Swing" is a little vague. Maybe "Beat Aside" or "Displace" to be less vague and more in line with what I think you're getting at for the attack? (Versetzen/Absetzen?)
I'm not sure what "Cross Blow" is supposed to be or if you pulled it from a manual. (All I can find for strikes is "Cross Cut" from Meyer's Halberd, and then there are half-sword guards called "True Cross" and "Bastard Cross." If it was from half-sword guards, it would actually make a lot of sense, since half-sword is how you fight someone in lots of armor.)
Delighted though that you're looking at actual period terminology! Does this mean that maybe the animation might be more nuanced than guys swinging swords like baseball bats? 8D (hopeful, wide-eyed smile)
Personally, I love the idea of actually having to pay attention to the animations to figure out what my opponent is up to and react accordingly in a more sword-play inspired fashion as opposed to "Hit 1 to swing. Hit 2 to swing harder."
Sorry if I sound like a know-it-all or anything. Most people aren't even vaguely aware manuals on fencing/fighting with western swords exist, let alone that there was actual technique involved.
(The gentleman on the left is in "Wrath Guard," for the curious. Just look at those pants!) http://wiktenauer.com/images/2/28/Meyer_1570_Longsword_E.jpg
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I'm a little concerned with pacing; are players expected to identify and react to status changes basically instantly, and are we expected to learn what every animation signifies?
This question popped into my head swam around and dived back down somewhere before I could snatch it...
I'd be interested to know how players will be able to identify all this information (would there be symbols against your target's avatar symbol, possibly and you'd just have to learn to memorize the symbols?) I know various sfx sometimes are used but that often leads to hyperinflation of stupid effects everywhere which I'm not a fan of personally.
Good question that Decius poses^?
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Overall it looks really interesting. As has been mentioned I too am curious if caster attacks follow a similar style or not. Will casters get combos?
It might be kinda fun not knowing exactly what each animation is right away - it would add a lot of mystery to the fight as you try to figure out your opponent's technique.
I like how a lot of the secondary effects are reduced when your attack doesn't completely land; without this then attack skill takes a backseat to base damage in many cases (a single keyword in the murder by numbers blog is frequently worth 30+ skill points for tier 1 ... in some cases much more). This makes attack skill more valuable and worth spending xp on.
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I really like what I read. @Skwiziks I love the idea but I am not sure if it will be desirable without making it overly complicated or leading to a min/max game. I personally prefer the rock/paper/scissors method of keeping things balanced as opposed to playing the min/max game. People will always try to min/max, but the less we make it about that, the better IMHO...
There is a significant (at least significant to me) portion of the playerbase who enjoy building, tweaking, customization. These are the ones who actually enjoy getting all the very finest components to craft the finest products, and who enjoy building their very best characters. The complex system, so long as it is intelligible and internally consistent, will greatly enjoy a complex system as opposed to an exceedingly dull rock-paper-scissors system.
There is nothing wrong with min-maxing until you get to the 'required build' stage, and that stage is avoidable by other means than dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator.
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...This question popped into my head swam around and dived back down somewhere before I could snatch it...
I very much admire your cognition analogy. It reminds me of the way my mind works, as if 90% of me is 'below the surface' where I cannot even see it is there until it rises... like a flash of light glimpsed from the scales.
A little different from Plato's 'birdcage' analogy for thoughts, but then Plato was rather a special case.
Anyway thank you for reminding me I am not alone in how I think.
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Sorry if I sound like a know-it-all or anything. Most people aren't even vaguely aware manuals on fencing/fighting with western swords exist, let alone that there was actual technique involved.
Not at all. I fenced in college, but in Epee. Expertise (as opposed to asserted authoritism) is appreciated on these boards.Kwizzy's link as a link depicting 'wrath guard' (figure on the front left). Note the several defensive techniques effectively depicted.
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Really loved the blog. You guys are awesome GW. Custom prefix and suffix attachments would be pretty sick, but I understand the balancing issue as well. I will echo Bluddwolf on wanting info on how this would work for dual wielding and sneak attack etc.
I also have a question about DoTs. I know similar effects dont stack. Do different DoTs stack seperately, or do they all count towards the same DoT category? DoTs are my fav type of attack. Id love to throw multiple stacks of different DoTs, or to have me stack multiple poisons, while my partner stacks multple burns etc.
On the issue of the battle system. I know many of you are probably PC gamers only. But some of you might be familiar with the Final Fantasy series single player console games. Early titles in the series were traditional turn based. Later titles moved to Active Time Battle system. The Pathfinder Online battle system reminds me of a modern version of this system. The ATB system had a stamina like timer. When it was full, you could take your turn. And the enemies worked the same. But if you stalled the enemy could still attack you whenever their stamina timer waa full. And you could stall the enemy with things like stop time, and get multiple turns in a row. Therefore it felt a little more real time, but the stamina timer still gave it the feeling of turn based rounds. I hope I explained that well. I believe SE was the first to use this psuedo turn based systrm, but other console rpgs adopted it. However, I dont remember any PC games usng it.
And Stephen, how about a Bandits Blog ^.^
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I just wanted to say that, after excitedly trying to explain this to my wife last night and my co-worker buddy this morning, I am utterly in awe of how awesome this system is.
Anyone who's been paying attention for a long time will recall that I was not at all a fan of limiting players to 6 "attack" abilities. I was really concerned about how this could possibly result in a system that wasn't reduced to a boring-tastic rotation of three or four abilities with another two or three "special use" abilities that rarely got used.
Well, brother, do I see it now!
Incredibly cool design! Top-notch blog!
Am I adequately conveying my excitement?
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im fine with players having to know animations and such. So a decent player might know a couple of the moves, but also has to wait until he see's what debuffs ends up on him.
A great player will know all the animations and be able to react quickly to the new situation.
Its another way to seperate players by using player skill as the defining factor.
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Planning time!
Primary weapon: An adamantine two-handed hammer, with stunning and defense-decreasing attacks, focused towards single targets.
Secondary weapon: Axe and shield, with taunting and defensive abilities, focused towards multiple targets (tanky style)
Third weapon: Crossbow, with slowing and rooting abilities.
I confess, I like planning. I sometimes make characters for kicks.
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Planning time!
Primary weapon: An adamantine two-handed hammer, with stunning and defense-decreasing attacks, focused towards single targets.
Secondary weapon: Axe and shield, with taunting and defensive abilities, focused towards multiple targets (tanky style)
Third weapon: Crossbow, with slowing and rooting abilities.I confess, I like planning. I sometimes make characters for kicks.
I plan on using an adamantine bladed Scarf...
Don't judge me...xD
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Planning time!
Primary weapon: An adamantine two-handed hammer, with stunning and defense-decreasing attacks, focused towards single targets.
Secondary weapon: Axe and shield, with taunting and defensive abilities, focused towards multiple targets (tanky style)
Third weapon: Crossbow, with slowing and rooting abilities.I confess, I like planning. I sometimes make characters for kicks.
I plan on using an adamantine bladed Scarf...
Don't judge me...
xD
With key words like silky and supple? ;)
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Kwizzy, your post reminded me of something that I'd like to see.
The claymore is a fine sword, but I think too many MMOs treat it as the only 2-handed sword in the world. As long as the GW folks are looking at the old European manuals, I'd love to see them use some of the movements and technique names developed for the German zwiehander.
As far as weapon effects go, I was happy to see no outrageous magical effects from the attacks described in the blog. I'd prefer PFO to be more like the tabletop game than an ultra-high-magic world like Guild Wars 2. Sword attacks that daze, stun or bleed, no problem. Until the magus comes along, or people develop some really advanced feats, I hope that non-magical throwing axes don't bounce off three enemies and return to your hand, dagger attacks don't teleport your thief, and spinning long sword attacks don't spray magic missiles in all directions.
Don't get me wrong, all of those effects are fun in GW2. They just don't strike me as a good fit for PFO.
Vereor Nox, that sounds like a really great assassination tool, or a self-defense weapon for a tavern dancer.
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Sorry if I sound like a know-it-all or anything. Most people aren't even vaguely aware manuals on fencing/fighting with western swords exist, let alone that there was actual technique involved.
Hey, it's rare to see Fiore fencing referenced at all. I practised with the style for years when I was younger.
(and I can't for the life of me remember why I stopped. :p)
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... dagger attacks don't teleport your thief...
I'm usually much further towards the Simulation end of the Video Game / Simulation spectrum, but I think that giving Rogues the ability to quickly (instantly?) get behind their targets is a good thing.
Also...
Leap/Charge: As part of the attack, the attacker leaps or runs to get closer to the target, extending the range of the attack. Doing this doesn't cause Opportunity and is very fast—an attack with this modifier is perfect for getting into melee range swiftly or intercepting a faster target.
I expect there will be Rogue attacks that include a Leap behind their target.
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If we assume that spell mechanics work anywhere along the lines of how attacks do then we might already know the mechanics for how durations of crowd control spells are determined.
I'm guessing that if your attack with a spell* isn't a full on hit then your spell's effects are lessened in damage/duration by the same amount damage from an attack would be. That would be consistent with the dot example in this blog. So spell focus is already built into the system in the form of whatever attack skill is used for the relevant spell. That would be nicely uniform mechanics between melee and spell! It would also mean those of use wanting to play a crowd controller need to stack up on the relevant attack skill.
*not an attack with a cantrip which will work similar to melee attacks according to the "I Put a Spell on You" blog, but an actual spell needing to be Refreshed.
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I suspect Karl was referring to games like Rift, Guild Wars 2, and Neverwinter, that actually give rogues the ability to literally teleport. It's an atmospheric thing. A rogue dashing around behind someone is a very different feel than one blinking out of existance to nightcrawler a dagger into someone's kidneys.
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I suspect Karl was referring to games like Rift, Guild Wars 2, and Neverwinter, that actually give rogues the ability to literally teleport. It's an atmospheric thing. A rogue dashing around behind someone is a very different feel than one blinking out of existance to nightcrawler a dagger into someone's kidneys.
That's what I thought KarlBob was talking about as well. My first exposure to it was the Dread Knight in Vanguard.
It occurs to me that it might be exceedingly difficult to appropriately animate a "Leap" that moves the Rogue through space without clipping the environment or causing some other kind of visible anomaly that causes the player base to object. It wouldn't surprise me if the devs decided it was more expedient to have the "Leap" effectively function like a teleport.
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Yeah, that's the reason why most games go with the teleport. A straightline charge to the nearest side of a target is relatively safe to animate, since you've already got to do the LOS check and any clipping will be minor and quick. Moving around the target you risk a full body clip of walls/celing/intervening objects/the enemy/etc.
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It occurs to me that it might be exceedingly difficult to appropriately animate a "Leap" that moves the Rogue through space without clipping the environment or causing some other kind of visible anomaly that causes the player base to object. It wouldn't surprise me if the devs decided it was more expedient to have the "Leap" effectively function like a teleport.
SW:TOR does leaps well with the Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior force leap ability. I can only see a monk pulling it off in PFO without a ring of jumping, but Jumps like that would be fine imo.
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Don't know how well it would translate to PfO, but in one gaming group I was in we had a rogue (Elf) who had a 20 DEX and high Acrobatics skill who used to flip over opponents to get behind them and use his back stab ability. Maybe some sort of acrobatics skill tree could be implemented?
A Monk should be able to do something similar, as could a Bard using an acrobatic-based performance in the tabletop version, and I don't see why it can't be worked into PfO, naturally not getting any backstab ability, but it could set up a flanking move for a fighter in the group.
Just some thoughts :)
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With key words like silky and supple? ;)Planning time!
Primary weapon: An adamantine two-handed hammer, with stunning and defense-decreasing attacks, focused towards single targets.
Secondary weapon: Axe and shield, with taunting and defensive abilities, focused towards multiple targets (tanky style)
Third weapon: Crossbow, with slowing and rooting abilities.I confess, I like planning. I sometimes make characters for kicks.
I plan on using an adamantine bladed Scarf...
Don't judge me...
xD
Now I'm imagining Diplomatic & Social game interactions using clothing keywords, like Provocative, Gauche, Loud, Reserved, and so on :)
SW:TOR does leaps well with the Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior force leap ability
SW:TOR spaces are very large and open, even indoors - there's never any low ceilings. Probably they thought of that early on and made it part of their area design because they knew they'd have lots of leaping Jedi :)
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Don't know how well it would translate to PfO, but in one gaming group I was in we had a rogue (Elf) who had a 20 DEX and high Acrobatics skill who used to flip over opponents to get behind them and use his back stab ability. Maybe some sort of acrobatics skill tree could be implemented?
A Monk should be able to do something similar, as could a Bard using an acrobatic-based performance in the tabletop version, and I don't see why it can't be worked into PfO, naturally not getting any backstab ability, but it could set up a flanking move for a fighter in the group.
Just some thoughts :)
I just joined a TT campaign (playing cleric). My first time actually playing Pathfinder (hadn't played D&D in a few years either). It really is a unique experience. All geeks should try it.
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Simply put, a good rogue is Always behind his target. :)
Now, we certainly cannot have rogues running around one-shotting us from behind, but with a strong and enthusiastic eye towards realism, being able to just warp behind a target is totally cheap and cheesy and draws forth painful memories from World of Warcraft. On the flip-side of the coin, spinning throught the air over the head of an armed opponent is precisely the Worst place to be. Even with lightsabers.
Anakin Skywalker: You underestimate my power!
Obi-wan Kenobi: Don't try it!
And Anakin got both his legs chopped off.
In the unenviable position of a rogue watching his now wounded and pissed off opponent turning around and drawing weapons, I would expect to see him doing a lot of rolling/tumbling to the side for 90 degree lateral dagger thrusts, or openly retreating for a more inventive maneuver i.e. - scrolls, potions, flash power, throwing sand in the eyes, luring opponents into pre-set traps, that sort of thing.
A Thief that can stand toe-to-toe with a Fighter is . . . a Fighter! Or, more practically . . . a dead man.
Short of magic, ranged weapons or actually being a warrior yourself, the only way to defeat a warrior in single combat is with trickery. And acrobatics is just not good enough in a game where so many more creative options could exist.
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...giving Rogues the ability to quickly (instantly?) get behind their targets is a good thing.
(....)
I expect there will be Rogue attacks that include a Leap behind their target.
No need to get behind, just have them look another way.
Sneak Attack is available whenever the target has the Flat-Footed state or is not targeting the attacker.
(Rogues won't do it from behind anymore, they'll do it in groups)