I'm GMing an AP, and the party is now 13th level. The Divine Hunter Paladin is able to put out rather brutal amounts of damage, and I'm trying to figure out tactics that'll allow my BBEGs to weather his storm of arrows without dying in in a single round.
The problems I have are thus: Smite Evil bypasses DR, Divine Bond gives his bow Seeking which bypasses miss chance, Litany of Righteousness is amazing (although SR is beginning to become common). Other than drastically inflating the health pools of anything they fight, what other tactics can I take?
I don't want to pick on the Paladin too much. If I sunder his bow, or use arrow-negating wind spells every fight, it'll start to feel a little cheap.
I use extra mobs where I can to eat up party actions/resources so they can't concentrate on the BBEG. Invisibility can add a round or two, but for the most part fights seem to be: "avoid letting anyone full attack, because if they do, something big is going to die."
This is the first game I've GMed that has gotten to this high a level (and I'd imagine they'll gain a few more before finishing the AP). Do I just need to adjust my preconceptions of how survivable anything is, or are there further adjustments I can make to my tactics to ensure my players are fighting tough, enjoyable battles?
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Just a few questions and preliminary suggestions.
First, questions: Who else is in the party? What AP is it? Have you tried talking to your player (as in, it's dominating and eclipsing the other party members)? Anything else about the build would be nice.
Now, preliminary suggestions: Golems have hefty non-evil DR. A couple of those might be good. A few heavy AC fighters might even make the paladin have difficulty missing. We're talking the full tower shield etc. Give it Arrow deflection or arrow catching. Make the uber health pool non-evil mercenary fighter whose goal is to tank take all the hits. Make a monk and crane style/snake style/deflect arrows/grapple him.
Next: caster. Like you said, invisibility. That is godlike. Then cast debilitating spells. Drop him in a pit. Cast obscuring mist then move. Seeking only helps if you know the square. Also, if you really want to shut down an archer, cast Fickle Winds. It's a personal, follow you everywhere wind wall that completely shuts down arrows. Don't abuse this one.
Just a few questions and preliminary suggestions.
First, questions: Who else is in the party? What AP is it? Have you tried talking to your player (as in, it's dominating and eclipsing the other party members)? Anything else about the build would be nice.
We're in RotRL book 5, and they just arrived at the
He's not dominating or eclipsing the party too much. The other two main members are an Arcane bloodline Sorcerer, and a pouncing falchion-wielding Barbarian. The latter is able to put out similar amounts of damage, but he's much easier to predict and control, as it were. There's a druid as well, but she hasn't been present very often of late.
His build is pretty straight-forward: be a paladin, and take all the archer feats he can. Getting into melee with him is a good option, as he provokes when attacking, but otherwise - being a paladin - he's difficult to hinder. He has fantastic saves, for instance.
Now, preliminary suggestions: Golems have hefty non-evil DR. A couple of those might be good. A few heavy AC fighters might even make the paladin have difficulty missing. We're talking the full tower shield etc. Give it Arrow deflection or arrow catching. Make the uber health pool non-evil mercenary fighter whose goal is to tank take all the hits. Make a monk and crane style/snake style/deflect arrows/grapple him.
Next: caster. Like you said, invisibility. That is godlike. Then cast debilitating spells. Drop him in a pit. Cast obscuring mist then move. Seeking only helps if you know the square. Also, if you really want to shut down an archer, cast Fickle Winds. It's a personal, follow you everywhere wind wall that completely shuts down arrows. Don't abuse this one.
Thanks for these suggestions! Golems are indeed a fantastic option. I'd all too swiftly forgotten how much trouble the party had with a simple Stone Golem. He has Clustered Shots, so the DR isn't as much of an issue, but the simple fact that golems are highly likely to be encountered in a dungeon full of crazy evil wizards and still be neutral is excellent.
Didn't know about Fickle Winds. Definitely going to have to bring that out sometime. As you say, I don't want to abuse any one strategy in particular, but if I have enough different ones I can keep each fight interesting while letting the Paladin shine in some, and struggle in others.
Dropping him down a pit would be very entertaining. Damn those high Paladin saves!
Grappling? Earth elementals and other similar creatures can come up through the ground under his feet...
They're getting to the level where their foes will have some divination options from time to time, and will have minions who can share party tactics and threats with them as well. Nothing wrong with having them prepared from time to time.
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Another fun one would be illusions. They have to be interacted with to be believe, so all those high saves are squat. Make walls where there aren't, secret passages that close behind people. Make it a maze, frustrating then at every turn (granted, this is harder to do in an AP over actual encounters). Most people's handling of melee fighters is a manipulation of terrain, for archers its the same thing. Instead of difficult terrain (which stops pounce :P) you have to use short hallways and line of sight to beat archers. diddly
Rite Publishing's 1001 Spells includes the 5th level mobile pit, a create pit spell that lets the caster move the pit (which can be up to 100' deep) from round to round. Cast that at your paladin and force him to move more than 5' per round, negating the full attack option.
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Avoid long corridors or open spaces. Have the enemy appear close to him.
Have creatures with ranged attacks focus their attacks on him if he is the greatest danger in such encounters.
Run them through tons of encounters. Divine Bond is only usable thrice per day at his level IIRC.
Swarms and incorporeal can be annoying too. As can traps.
Count the ammo !!!
Ooozes, Slimes, Fungi, Molds, Constructs, Elementals, Animals... lots of non-evil challenges that you don't need to 'force' in just to take down the Paladin.
Make sure you're properly applying the soft cover bonus to your baddies that he has to shoot through friendlies to hit.
"Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check."
This is separate from the Shooting or Throwing into melee penalty you take if you don't have precise shot.
Also, dropping prone is a free action. Casters don't need to stand up to cast their spells. That can give them another +4 to ranged attacks. (Of course it opens them up for melee attacks...)
chaotic neutral gunslinger? :)
Deflect arrow feat will deflect his first attack in the case of many shot it will deflect both arrows putting a very significant dent in his damage potential.
Also basic concealment even from a mundane source as darkness will affect his damage output, which forces him to move or deal with concealment (remember that darkvision has a range limit of 60 ft should he have it), other sources of concealment will work quite well too.
Mobile opponents can find cover or (total) concealment from the paladin forcing him too move and negate a full attack or suffer the penalties depending on how much cover/concealment.
The occasional encounter in heavy rain, strong wind or mist can be quite effective too.
Trickery. BBEG creates several duplicates, possibly with simulacra or disguise other, that look just like themselves. Get the paladin to waste his smites and Divine Bond usage on the duplicates, and maybe not use them on the big guy for fear he's just another duplicate. Guards or acolytes disguised as the big bad guy or at least wearing similar clothes are a variation on the theme.
Project image is a wonderful spell for major caster villains, allowing them to throw spells at the party without being exposed in turn. Spells like mislead can be handy too.
Teleporting enemies -- like, oh, demons -- can appear in a mob around the paladin. If he's a maxed out archer, he's probably not as good in melee, and if they're flanking, aiding another, and generally ganging up, life can be hard for the paladin for a bit. Especially if one of them tries to grab or sunder his quiver -- which is usually much less well-protected than the bow. Demons probably wouldn't have teamwork feats, but other creatures might.
Big-sized evil guys -- like, oh, giants -- can try to disarm him (grab the bow) or even sunder it. Someone could throw a dispel magic on the bow to shut down some of its abilities for a while. Or on the quiver, if he has a magical one...
Shield guardian golems can absorb a bunch of damage, particularly if their stored spell gives them fast healing or curative abilities. They provide cover for their master as well. Bonus points for having the BBEG riding in a chair inside the golems body, with really good cover bonuses. A line of mooks with tower shields could do much the same thing,bar the riding inside.
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These are nice suggestions but let me throw my two usual tactics into the mix.
DM Action: Start every scenario scenario asking a simple question, "How many Arrows do you have?" smile, and make a BIG note of their answer. This usually gets them paranoid about running out of arrows and you see them start holding back on full attacks almost immediately.
Doesn't require any extra effort or design changes and the archer self-regulates their damage.
Follow that up with a simple tactic erratically from then on.
Steal the arrows.
The quiver is only loosely attached and almost never have any magical bonuses to the paladin's CMD so at this level should be easy to steal.
And if your BG isn't the melee type then you really must start using this spell Mad Monkeys or this one Pilfering Hand or this one if you want to get 2 birds with one stone Envious Urge.
The goal is not to single the paladin out for constant abuse (which is bad GM'ing if you do it all the time) but to have your BG's have reliable, realistic tactics that work on everyone the same that just happen to really mess up the archer.
Taking away the kids toys has always been a time honored tradition, take advantage of it.
Having played a very powerful Zen Archer Monk with the seeking property on his bow, remember that the paladin has to know which square to hit when facing an invisible opponent, for his seeking weapon to kick in. So deliver invisible enemies that make a 5-ft step after a full attack or spell, the perception will be very very high to pinpoint them.
My antipaladin uses this spell to take on paladins. Could try throwing something at them with a level dip or two into antipaladin, giving him better saves against those pesky save or dies spells, and access to scrolls/wands of this spell.
The problems I have are thus: Smite Evil bypasses DR, Divine Bond gives his bow Seeking which bypasses miss chance, Litany of Righteousness is amazing (although SR is beginning to become common). Other than drastically inflating the health pools of anything they fight, what other tactics can I take?
I don't want to pick on the Paladin too much. If I sunder his bow, or use arrow-negating wind spells every fight, it'll start to feel a little cheap.
I use extra mobs where I can to eat up party actions/resources so they can't concentrate on the BBEG. Invisibility can add a round or two, but for the most part fights seem to be: "avoid letting anyone full attack, because if they do, something big is going to die."
This is the first game I've GMed that has gotten to this high a level (and I'd imagine they'll gain a few more before finishing the AP). Do I just need to adjust my preconceptions of how survivable anything is, or are there further adjustments I can make to my tactics to ensure my players are fighting tough, enjoyable battles?
Illusions (like mirror image), walls of things that make combat close-quarters, illusions, there are lots of options. Have a foe get close to him with Step Up, and pin him down in melee.
Or sometimes, use none. The player has found a successful tactic. Let him enjoy it.
Having played a very powerful Zen Archer Monk with the seeking property on his bow, remember that the paladin has to know which square to hit when facing an invisible opponent, for his seeking weapon to kick in. So deliver invisible enemies that make a 5-ft step after a full attack or spell, the perception will be very very high to pinpoint them.
You could have taken Imp. Precise Shot at level 6.