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Dabbler doubts the monks power.
Maybe he's one of those people that dumps int on monks...
Dude the fact that you think 4 + Int skills on a class that has no particular bonuses to skills other than acrobatics (which really doesn't rank that high in the list of "must have skills" for a skill monkey) makes someone even a partial skill monkey is insane.
By that definition over half the classes in the game are basically partial skill monkeys.
Monk
Rogue
Ranger
Bard
Barbarian
Druid
Alchemist
Cavelier
Inquisitor
Gunslinger
Oracle
Summoner (Sorta, eidolon and summoner both get separate skill ranks)Of the remaining classes we have full and 6th level spell casters, and the fighter and paladin.
I don't think I'll come even close to using your definition of a skill monkey anytime soon.
Any class in the game can be built to contribute to the group via skills, and any class can have nearly any skill as a class skill.
Contributing via skills does not mean being "The Best", it means having a handful of skills the group needs when the group needs them.
Dabbler doubts the monks power.
Maybe he's one of those people that dumps int on monks...
Dude the fact that you think 4 + Int skills on a class that has no particular bonuses to skills other than acrobatics (which really doesn't rank that high in the list of "must have skills" for a skill monkey) makes someone even a partial skill monkey is insane.
By that definition over half the classes in the game are basically partial skill monkeys.
Monk
Rogue
Ranger
Bard
Barbarian
Druid
Alchemist
Cavelier
Inquisitor
Gunslinger
Oracle
Summoner (Sorta, eidolon and summoner both get separate skill ranks)Of the remaining classes we have full and 6th level spell casters, and the fighter and paladin.
I don't think I'll come even close to using your definition of a skill monkey anytime soon.
Yep all those classes have stealth, acrobatics, and perception as class skills making them great scouts.
Additionally they all have bonuses to acrobatics...
Clearly I define skill monkey by number of skill points...
CRB monk is best monk.
Your race and archetype did the vast majority of the heavy lifting. The falchion build works with damn near every race and isnt even the two handed archetype. Your race isn't even the standard tiefling it technically takes a feat to qualify for that race. What would your DPR look like if you were nearly any other race.I agree with saves and AC, but the damage output? No, I have not seen that, unless it was situational or you gimp the fighter to hell and back, or have a potion quaffing monk chugging back buffs like there's no tomorrow.Artanthos wrote:
You can have better saves, better AC and equal damage to a fighter. It just takes a greater degree of system mastery.Look upthread just a few posts for comparisons between monk and fighter builds.
You'll see a monk matching a fighter point for point, without relying on potions.
as of the blood of fiends companion, Variant tiefling heritages don't require a feat tax.
it supersedes council of thieves
but yeah, race and archetype did do the heavy lifting, plus the build is dependant on Ki which is a rarer resource than spell slots and limited means to recuperate
there are pearls of power, scrolls, wands and potions of spells, but no potions of ki restoration
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Your race and archetype did the vast majority of the heavy lifting. The falchion build works with damn near every race and isnt even the two handed archetype. Your race isn't even the standard tiefling it technically takes a feat to qualify for that race. What would your DPR look like if you were nearly any other race.
Race and archetype made no contribution to damage at all. The race/archetype selection was strictly for defense and darkvision.
Or are be back to "any build selection other than an unarmed human will be dismissed and ignored."
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Since people are inclined to dismiss anything other than an unarmed human monk as being strictly a quirk of race/archetyp:
dex_monk_10
Female Human (Garundi) Monk 10
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 25, flat-footed 18 (+2 armor, +1 shield, +8 Dex, +1 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 83 (10d8+30)
Fort +11, Ref +18, Will +11
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10+1d6+15/19-20/x2) -haste + ki
Special Attacks flurry of blows +8/+8/+8/+3/+3, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +9 (+11 Tripping); CMD 30 (32 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Desperate Battler, Disorienting Maneuver, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Piranha Strike -2/+4, Snapping Turtle Style +1, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 17), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Honored Fist of the Society, Quain Martial Artist
Skills Acrobatics +21 (+33 jump, +31 to jump), Climb +5, Escape Artist +19, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +15, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +21, Swim +2
Languages Common, Osiriani
SQ ac bonus +4, fast movement (+30'), high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, monk vows (vow of silence [+1 ki], vow of truth [+2 ki]), purity of body, slow fall 50', stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10), wholeness of body
Combat Gear Deliquescent gloves; Other Gear Agile Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Ring of protection +1, You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +4 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deliquescent gloves +1d6 acid dam to touch/weapon att. Natural/unarmed att is immune to ooze acid & doesn't split.
Desperate Battler Gain +1 morale bonus on melee attack and damage when alone
Disorienting Maneuver After successful tumble through opponent's square, gain +2 on attack rolls vs. that opponent
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Honored Fist of the Society +1 Ki point.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Piranha Strike -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snapping Turtle Style +1 Gain +1 shield bonus to AC when at least one hand is free
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Silence (+1 Ki) The monk must speak no words and attempt to be quiet in his actions. Accidental noises and the sounds of battle (such as the sound of a fist or weapon striking an opponent) do not affect his vow, though most monks with this vow choose their weapons a
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (10 Hp/use) (Su) Use 2 ki to heal own wounds as a standard action.
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+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10+15/19-20/x2)
4(.75(24)+.75(.1)(20.5)) = 19.5375(4) = 78.15
2(.5(24)+.5(.1)(20.5)) = 13.025(2) = 26.05
DPR = 104.2
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+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10+15/19-20/x2)
4(.75(24)+.75(.1)(20.5)) = 19.5375(4) = 78.15
2(.5(24)+.5(.1)(20.5)) = 13.025(2) = 26.05
DPR = 104.2
AC: 28/25/18
HP: 83
Saves: 11/18/11
Over 100 DPR at level 10, without sacrificing defenses.
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And he's using vows. I wouldn't want a vow of silence monk in my party if it let him gestalt four ways with druid, cleric, and wildblooded celestial sorcerer. Verbal communication is too fundamental to adventuring in a group to give up for anything. A commoner can shout useful warnings. If a commoner has a good idea he can communicate it to his companions. If you can't perform such basic group coordination you should not be a PC in a social game.
On those grounds I'm going to have to pan your monk. If your goal is to feel good about yourself and bask in your false sense of superiority you're good to go. If your goal is to actually convince people you're failing. Real debate isn't a game of scoring points. It's about actually convincing people observing the debate that your point of view is closer to the actual truth than the oppositions and I, for one, have found Dabbler and Master Arminas more convincing for as long as I've been privy to the debate.
If you actually want to be convincing your build has to past the "smell test." What is or isn't acceptable is in the eyes of the people you're trying to convince. If you think that's not fair then debate is not for you.
Your idea a smell test is, anything that disrupts your preconceived notions of the way this game works cannot be allowed.
We simply eliminate any class feature, feat, weapon selection, race or archetype that might threaten our position and THEN point and say "monk sucks".
If I eliminate enough options from any class, I can make the same claim.
Not only are my builds legal by RAW, they are legal by PFS. I can sit down at any PFS table in the world and it would not matter how much you complained, I would still be permitted to play the posted builds.
Honestly I see no need for the monk.
Lets take a look at the usual 4 man party shall we?
You have the divine caster (whether he be cleric, oracle, or druid).
You have the OP guy everyone complains about (I.E. Wizard, or his less counterparts the witch and sorcerer).
You have the BSF (usually a fighter, barbarian, or paladin, but role can be decently filled with a Summoner or druid)
Then you usually have either the skill monkey and/or the "round-out" guy (the guy who compliments another one of the three to increase net prociency). This guy will usually be the glass cannon, I.E. "the-guy-who-can-do-alot-in-melee-but-has-d8-HD-so-isn't-the-tank" guy. Usually this slot is filled with a rogue (for the nostalgia people), an inquisitor (effectively a better rogue for most people), the magus, the ranger, the alchemist, or the bard.
Now lets see how the monk stands up in usual group construction:
No divine spells- Knixed
Not a wizard- knixed
well that was a easy start, now time to look at the other two general roles.
BSF- The BSF has 2 jobs: 1) hit things and 2) don't let things hit your squishies (I.E. the primadonna,ermm I mean, god wizard). At lower levels a monk can be quite effective in this role. As you get higher in levels though they become less and less effective in this role as the *InsertDudeWithD10HDHere* guy gets gear and a multitude of class abilities that are useful. For the monk, standing more or less still and taking blows is a bad idea. They are generally designed to be mobile. Additionally, with a usually lower Con and a lower HD than the "big 3" (I.E. fighter, paladin, and barb [with honorable mention of the cavalier]) they really don't want to be hit. Additionally, as you level, they fall farther and farther behind the big 3 when it comes to the whole "Kill Things" department. A Monk just has a hard time comparing to the CAGM barbarian or the Paladin (how often are you NOT fighting evil things?) in mid to late levels.
The "Glass Cannon"- This is naturally many people would think of the monk. The monk is not the BSF, after all, he has D8 HD. But then you have to think, what does he bring that the others don't? Lets look at the other guys one by one:
Alchemist: The alchemist beats the monk when it comes to skill monkeying hands down. Honestly the Alchemist is one of the top skill monkeys (behind the bard but ahead of [or tied with] with rogue and the inquisitor). They have the same BAB. The Monk (obviously) has the better saves (all good saves are nice). Now comes the fun part. At lower levels, the bomb alchemist is obnoxious fun. Especially if you take the Mindchemist archetype. You pump your Int to god levels and start chucking bombs with reckless abandon. At lower levels the bombadier can outdamage a good deal of people, is hitting touch ac (so hitting more often) and is hitting alot of people in the process. All things a monk of equivalent level is not doing very well (if at all). At higher levels the bombadier becomes an excellent battlefield controller, dropping entangles and blinding and choking bombs at stratigic locations to corale the enemies into the Mage's spells. The monk can't even begin to dream of doing that. Additionally, the alchemist can Nova with the best of them if built right (abuse things like rapid shot and TWF). To top all of this off, the alchemist can create "potions" and hand them out to people, thereby eleviating the burden on the mage and cleric (increasing their efficiency), allow the party members to buff themselves when most convienient for them or when unable to reach a certain member, and increasing net power for the ENTIRE PARTY (since now the cleric and mage can prepare more proactive spells). Oh and I need not even mention the rediculousness of the Beastmorph+Vivisectionist alchemist...
Inquisitor: One of the best scouts in the game. There was actually a thread a while ago about who made the best scouts and it came down to the inquisitor, bard, and druid. Unlike the monk, he is very adept at using knowledge skills to figure things out. Has decent melee ability, and has spell casting with a fairly decent list. A decently built inquisitor can be as effective, if only slightly less, than a well built monk, in combat (modular bane+judgements are really nice) while being able to bring ALOT more to the party than a monk could out of combat (Discern Lies, Stern Gaze, Monster Lore, and Discern Alignment really help with the whole "interrogator" guy in the party and track helps alot with scouting).
Bard: Yes a lone bard is worse than a monk. Maybe... But the strength of the bard comes from the fact that the bard can make his WHOLE PARTY a whole lot stronger. 1 mildly powerful guy is worth alot less than having 4 VERY powerful guys. The bard is also the BEST skill monkey, the BEST FoP (barring unusual circumstances like a barbarian clan that only responds to people of significant strength and battle powess [yes has happened once to me in a home brew]) and the best wingman in a party. The bard also comes with a pretty decent selection of spells that can aid the cleric or mage in taking strain off of them, and acting as a off healer. Oh, and if you ever need a knowledge check done, the bard just about can't fail.
Magus: Two things. 1) Dervish Dancing, 2)Spells+SpellStrike+Spell Combat. Those two things makes the magus the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to glass cannons. The magus is the epitome of glass cannon. In early levels the Dervish Dancing magus can generally out damage most of the party pretty easily (until he runs out of spells/arcana points) and at higher levels he tapers off but still keeps up with the fighter (which at high levels, out damages a monk any day of the week) for bursts at a time. The versatility of having spells also greatly helps him as spells (especially arcane spells) are generally pretty useful.
Rogue- This one is about on par if a little better than the monk (depending on scenerio). Out of combat the rogue is INFINTELY more useful than the monk (having 8+INT skills helps alot, along with trapfinding and rogue talents) and in combat the DPS of the rogue tends to hover aorund the same, or a little lower than the monk (depends on sneak attack).
So yeah... The monk really does not add mucht that another class cannot do, and the other classes are capable of doing more as a whole and aid the party more than any monk. So... what is the point of the monk?
And he's using vows. I wouldn't want a vow of silence monk in my party if it let him gestalt four ways with druid, cleric, and wildblooded celestial sorcerer. Verbal communication is too fundamental to adventuring in a group to give up for anything. A commoner can shout useful warnings. If a commoner has a good idea he can communicate it to his companions. If you can't perform such basic group coordination you should not be a PC in a social game.
On those grounds I'm going to have to pan your monk. If your goal is to feel good about yourself and bask in your false sense of superiority you're good to go. If your goal is to actually convince people you're failing. Real debate isn't a game of scoring points. It's about actually convincing people observing the debate that your point of view is closer to the actual truth than the oppositions and I, for one, have found Dabbler and Master Arminas more convincing for as long as I've been privy to the debate.
If you actually want to be convincing your build has to past the "smell test." What is or isn't acceptable is in the eyes of the people you're trying to convince. If you think that's not fair then debate is not for you.
Your idea a smell test is, anything that disrupts your preconceived notions of the way this game works cannot be allowed.
We simply eliminate any class feature, feat, weapon selection, race or archetype that might threaten our position and THEN point and say "monk sucks".
If I eliminate enough options from any class, I can make the same claim.
Not only are my builds legal by RAW, they are legal by PFS. I can sit down at any PFS table in the world and it would not matter how much you complained, I would still be permitted to play the posted builds.
Except your monk, while decent in combat, would he horridly useless in just about any other scenerio, and is incapable of boosting the total power of the party unlike an alchemist, bard, magus, or any other D8 HD class.... Additionally, the whole vow of silence thing would get really old really fast. Remember, this is also a ROLE PLAYING game, and your monk would be horrid in the roleplaying aspect. Fighters are always horrid in roleplaying aspect due to their general lack of any skills, but things like the Paladin or the Barbarian can match (or exceed easily) your damage while still being rather useful and effective out of combat.
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but yeah, race and archetype did do the heavy lifting, plus the build is dependant on Ki which is a rarer resource than spell slots and limited means to recuperate
there are pearls of power, scrolls, wands and potions of spells, but no potions of ki restoration
If I were not building to PFS standards, the weapon would be made of wyroot. With a 17-20 critical threat range, I would have a 68% chance of threatening at least one critical on a full attack or a 60% chance of threatening at least one critical on a round not I was not using KI for an extra attack. Chance of confirming would depend on which attack was threatening.
There is also the possibility of multiple crits in a single round.
ok? So a Dervish Dancer Magus can Crit threaten on a 15-20 with a scimitar with an intesified shockgrasp+weapon damage for MUCH more damage. And his spells are a more common of a resource than your ki (especially since he can burn his Arcana points (which is about equal to your ki) to restore his spell, in addition to just having a bunch of spell slots). The reason I say a Dervish Dancing magus is because almost ALL magus' are a Dervish Dancing magus (sadly).
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That monk is useless half of his career, not to mention that he totally depends of a not so hard to sunder item. Also this monk can do this trick even less times than the last monk since he have less ki. But I will build a dex based fighter with boots of speed to see what happens.
I'm assuming, with improved trip (first level bonus feat), he'll be making sure opponents spend most of their time prone at low level.
As soon as he gets his AOMF and KI pool (by level 4) he's dealing damage.
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ok? So a Dervish Dancer Magus can Crit threaten on a 15-20 with a scimitar with an intesified shockgrasp+weapon damage for MUCH more damage. And his spells are a more common of a resource than your ki (especially since he can burn his Arcana points (which is about equal to your ki) to restore his spell, in addition to just having a bunch of spell slots). The reason I say a Dervish Dancing magus is because almost ALL magus' are a Dervish Dancing magus (sadly).
Three points:
1. The comparison was between fighter and monk. Nobody, anywhere on this thread, has been discussing the magus. Nobody denies that magus is the highest NOVA damage in the game.
2. The discussion on crit chance combined with a high rate of attack was in the context of replenishing KI in a non-PFS environment.
3. The only reason the magus takes dervish dance is because he is denied 2-handed fighting, 2-weapon fighting and sword & board. If other combat styles were a viable option, very few people would take Dervish Dance.
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That monk is useless half of his career, not to mention that he totally depends of a not so hard to sunder item. Also this monk can do this trick even less times than the last monk since he have less ki. But I will build a dex based fighter with boots of speed to see what happens.I'm assuming, with improved trip (first level bonus feat), he'll be making sure opponents spend most of their time prone at low level.
As soon as he gets his AOMF and KI pool (by level 4) he's dealing damage.
Not without agile maneuvers.
EDIT: Also, it would be good if you post the monk with an archetype and a the race you want so we can compare how much that change the build.
Weapon Finesse: If I have this feat, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus?
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/03/11
Emphasis mine
The archetype granted access to Barkskin.
The Race raised wisdom by 2, lowered charisma by 2 and allowed Armor of the Pit. The difference is 7 AC and 1 will save. No other combat stats change. Were he human, the two feats freed up would have been applied to dodge and snapping turtle style, making the AC difference 5 points.
The reason why I bring up Magus is because honestly the monk would never take the place of the fighter. The monk is about mobility, and really hates being hit. The monk works best along side another fighter to take the heat off of him. The slot the monk would compete with would be the slot the Magus/bard/inquisitor/alchemist/rogue/ranger would normally fill, which is the "glass-cannon" role or the "AP carry/Assassin" for those of you who play LoL. You snipe off (whether by actual sniping or by targetting and harassing a single guy while the BSF keeps everyone else busy/killing things) the stratigic targets. You would play the role of the force multiplier. In that role the monk brings VERY little that the other guys cannot do as well if not better AND they bring others skills to the table to aid the party that the monk cannot begin to do (scoutings the forte of rogues, bards and inquisitors. The magus, bard,ranger, and the alchemist bring "spells" and buffs to the party. The bard and alchemist bring intelligence checks. The Alchemist brings very useful crafting (infusions are beast). And all but the magus bring a very useful set of skills to disarm just about any scenerio).
Monks are great scouts. Stop dumping int.
Dabbler doubts the monks power.
Maybe he's one of those people that dumps int on monks...
Actually the last monk I played I tried to fill the skill-monkey role. We used diced stats, and I got not one score below 14, so I could afford to, and I prefer smart, skilled characters anyway. Still didn't work too well, a real rogue would have done much better for the skills/scout role and no worse in the combat role. When a ranger joined the party, I was basically sidelined.
Look upthread just a few posts for comparisons between monk and fighter builds.
You'll see a monk matching a fighter point for point, without relying on potions.
That was in all the brew-ha-ha about setting limits, so I basically skipped it. Level 10 is one where fighter DPR is in a trough before they get that extra attack at 11th, and with a lot of damage per hit, that makes a big difference.
Also, DPR usually goes against un-buffed CR-equivelant statistics. The minute you start running it against actual monsters, and consider CR+ foes (like you get in boss-fights) then the monk usually drops precipitously in damage output, but the fighter shines.
For example, Ciretose's monk was maxing at +19 to hit, 1d10+8 damage. At 10th level I can easily build a fighter with +25 to hit, 2d4+27 damage. Now the monk has more attacks, so vs low AC he's getting way more hits in and can maybe score more damage. But the low ACs are not where you have a problem, it's the high ACs where you really want the hits. So against AC24, with haste and an extra attack, his monk could hit at +19/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12 for 53.865 DPR. Not bad. But a decent fighter without haste can dish +25/+17 2d4+27 15-20/x2 which adds to 68.64 DPR. With haste it's 108.16.
Now pump up the AC by four and add 10 DR/alignment. The monk now gets 2.6 hits, for all of 9.1 damage pulling all the stops out. The fighter, though, hits for 40.04 DPR.
Oh, and if you want the fighter stats I'm using:
Human (Shoanti) Fighter 10
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 15, flat-footed 24 (+11 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 100 (10d10+36)
Fort +10, Ref +9, Will +9 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Falchion +22/+17 (2d4+27/15-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +13/+8 (1d3+12/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +13/+8 (1d3+12/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +6) +16/+11 (1d8+9/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +4, bows +3)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +13; CMD 31 (35 vs. Disarm, 35 vs. Sunder)
Feats Dodge, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Iron Will (1/day), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack -3/+6, Step Up, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
Traits Deft Dodger, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +12, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (engineering) +5, Perception +12, Profession (soldier) +6, Ride +6, Stealth -1, Survival +8, Swim +7
Languages Common, Shoanti
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +3 Falchion, Arrows (20), Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +6), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Cloak of resistance +1, Gloves of dueling, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +1, 97 PP, 1004 GP
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Oh, saw your build....nice number crunching, but it's a "theorycraft" build - Str 7 is going to kill you at level 1-3 long before you can get that Agile AoMF in any real game. It really shines as an example of how a monk has to be min-maxed to hell and back just to match a basic "other class".
@Dabbler
What part of partial skill monkey do you not get here? Of course the rogue is better at being a skill monkey!
Monks don't fill the skill monkey role, they partially fill the skill monkey and martial role. If you don't have other players also partially filling those roles, you are going to have a bad time.
@Dabbler
What part of partial skill monkey do you not get here? Of course the rogue is better at being a skill monkey!
What's the point of a job half-done? If you need somebody else to finish the job, then they may as well be doing all of the job.
Monks don't fill the skill monkey role, they partially fill the skill monkey and martial role. If you don't have other players also partially filling those roles, you are going to have a bad time.
What's the point of a class that can only "partially" do two jobs when another class can by comparison "fully" do both those jobs?
I'm not arguing that the monk can't help, I'm pointing out that there is nothing going on here another class couldn't do better and do more besides, and that's why the monk is an underpowered class.
My monk had 14 Int, and was human, so 7 skill ranks per level wasn't bad. I also took the Vagabond Child trait and Disable Device as the class skill. Even so, I struggled to do the skill-monkey's job. When a new player joined us with a ranger (archery focussed), he effectively took over the scouting and I got sidelined, only called in to disarm the occasional trap or open the occasional lock.
If scouting is a job, it's a job that involves moving ahead of the party to ascertain dangers and reconnoitre the enemy. As such it will involve Stealth (for obvious reasons), Perception (enemies & trap-finding), Disable Device (because despite what some say, setting off traps is not desirable when using Stealth), Survival (sometimes), Knowledges (often, because you need to know what you are looking at), Climb (to get to vantage points), Swim (likewise).
Comparing our two characters, mine had the edge in Stealth but the ranger had slightly better Perception (he was an elf, so my 2-point wisdom advantage was trumped), he didn't have Disable Device (the one reason I stayed useful), but was way better on Climb and Survival, and was way better on applicable Knowledges (I had Religion, he had Dungeoneering and Nature at higher levels). Skill-wise, he had me beat or matched in all areas save the one I took a trait to be good at, a trait he could have taken if he were a more experienced player. In addition he was way nastier in a fight with his archery focus.
Now I will agree that we could be argued to be able to "share" the scouting "role," and we did, but I was left with the distinct feeling that if it didn't involve a lock, I was redundant to needs, and it's not like I was able to contribute significantly anywhere else while he most definitely did.
1) Disable device is not part of scouting
2) Archer rangers and rogues make better scouts than monks. That doesn't mean the monks isn't a good scout.
3) The ranger is a lot like the monk, except they have less mobility and worse defenses, but since they are normally archers this is generally not a problem.
4) Maybe he was the redundant character, since he added his to the party.
Climb is much less useful when you can do a ki jump and fall without taking damage. I'm not convince Survival is necessary for a party scout in the game.
Let's assume you're 10th level and have +18 to Acrobatics.
Spend Ki to add +20 to it, we'll assume a 10.
You have a 48 Acrobatics roll.
You can jump a whopping...12 feet up (impressive feat, in comparison to a normal human, admittedly, but still.).
No, it really doesn't replace Climb in the slightest.
Archery is very vulnerable to things like Wind Wall and Obscurement - any spell caster should have a wand of something that defeats archery.
This is assuming every enemy (or even the majority) they face is a spellcaster and/or has Wind Wall up.
You can put up scenarios that are just as unfavorable to the Monk as well, but they shouldn't be used to determine effectiveness.
1) Disable device is not part of scouting
Have fun scouting when you can't get through doors you need to get to and set off every trap you pass by (that'd get loud pretty quick).
Why didn't you play an elven monk?
Comparing our two characters, mine had the edge in Stealth but the ranger had slightly better Perception (he was an elf, so my 2-point wisdom advantage was trumped)
Because I needed the extra feat for being human at first level, and at the outset the ranger wasn't in the party, that player joined later. Why SHOULD I play an elven monk? My Perception should have been adequate...somebody just came along with a better Perception is all.
The fundamental here is that the ranger is better at scouting, period. Added to that, he's often better and more versatile at combat too once you factor in his animal companion. In special abilities he's better, he has spells.
This is why I maintain the monk is a weak class that is negatively unbalanced.
Climb is much less useful when you can do a ki jump and fall without taking damage. I'm not convince Survival is necessary for a party scout in the game.
, he didn't have Disable Device (the one reason I stayed useful), but was way better on Climb and Survival,
Ki-jump isn't that amazing, you only go 1' up for each +4 DC. So jumping 10' vertically is DC40...good luck replacing Climb with that. As for Survival, it's situational but if you are scouting and come across tracks, it's still useful.
[He] way better on applicable Knowledges (I had Religion, he had Dungeoneering and Nature at higher levels). Skill-wise, he had me beat or matched in all areas save the one I took a trait to be good at, a trait he could have taken if he were a more experienced player.acknowledged
Archery is very vulnerable to things like Wind Wall and Obscurement - any spell caster should have a wand of something that defeats archery.
In addition he was way nastier in a fight with his archery focus.
I agree. But not every foe you run across is a caster, and if your scout is to make a surprise attack on the enemy when the rest of the party shoes, an archer has real big advantage on this.
Then your GM played it easy on the Ranger.
Now I will agree that we could be argued to be able to "share" the scouting "role," and we did, but I was left with the distinct feeling that if it didn't involve a lock, I was redundant to needs, and it's not like I was able to contribute significantly anywhere else while he most definitely did.
No, he didn't, trust me on this, the ranger had some hard times of it, I just had more hard times.
1) Disable device is not part of scouting
I disagree - but if you are correct, that just makes the ranger even better by comparison.
2) Archer rangers and rogues make better scouts than monks. That doesn't mean the monks isn't a good scout.
Well lets face it, it places the monk as third tier choice:
1st choice - rogue or bard2nd choice - ranger
3rd choice - monk, druid, barbarian.
Really, it's not so much that the monk is a good choice as that he'll do if you don't have a real scout.
3) The ranger is a lot like the monk, except they have less mobility and worse defenses, but since they are normally archers this is generally not a problem.
Well, they have spells and animal companions to make up for that, so perhaps that should read: "The ranger is a lot like the monk, only better because they can minimalise their weaknesses."
4) Maybe he was the redundant character, since he added his to the party.
He made himself more useful to the party than my monk could, is all I can say to that.
At 10th level, everybody has a fly ring.
Dunno about everyone having a ring but I will agree with you that by 10th Climb is shat upon by Fly and Fly related things.
The Ranger had a higher Per due to racial bonuses. You chose to spend your racial bonuses elsewhere. If you'd taken skill focus (Per) as your racial bonus, you would have had a much higher Per than he did.Because I needed the extra feat for being human at first level, and at the outset the ranger wasn't in the party, that player joined later. Why SHOULD I play an elven monk? My Perception should have been adequate...somebody just came along with a better Perception is all.
Why didn't you play an elven monk?
In either case, there would be 1 point in it. Given the other things his character did better, it's really not worth arguing over. Monk has a good wisdom score, but it's a secondary stat. Rangers need an OK score for their spells, so a point or two is all the difference there will be...except the ranger then gets Favoured Terrain on top, and the monk doesn't. The ranger's still going to have the edge, I think.
While detecting and disarming traps is certainly preferable to just setting them off deliberately, from time to time traps will be set off by accident. When that happens, your Monk would have had a distinct advantage.
The fundamental here is that the ranger is better at scouting, period.
But that wasn't a fundamental of the class, it was a choice I took. Class-to-class, neither class has Disable Device and the ranger has the advantage in scouting.
Well, a Monk was posted earlier by Atarlast. You could write up a Ranger and we could see how far you have to abuse the rules (if at all) to match his DPR.
Added to that, he's often better and more versatile at combat too once you factor in his animal companion. In special abilities he's better, he has spells.
DPR isn't everything, there's also versatility. With access to all martial weapons a ranger has a lot more options available than the monk - most specifically, a ranger can be a switch hitter, a monk is always a melee fighter unless he's a Zen Archer. If you want a 5th wheel in a party, an archer is a good one to have, probably more useful than a monk. In all honesty, I try not to "abuse the rules" in my builds (take a look at my fighter, above - he's not over optimised or min-maxed, he's just a solid all-round fighter build). I'll knock up a ranger, though, if you want.
The "fix" I favour to the monk is one that cuts back on damage but improves accuracy in hitting and the ability to bypass DR. It isn't all about damage, but about making the monk work with positive synergy between his abilities.
At 10th level, everybody has a fly ring.
Ki-jump isn't that amazing, you only go 1' up for each +4 DC. So jumping 10' vertically is DC40...good luck replacing Climb with that. As for Survival, it's situational but if you are scouting and come across tracks, it's still useful.
Rendering the monk's land speed and agility irrelevant from that point onward, I must point out.
That's true, but hamanoids (at least in our campaign) are the most common monster type and it doesn't take very many levels before every enemy party has a spellcaster.
I agree. But not every foe you run across is a caster,
Archery is very vulnerable to things like Wind Wall and Obscurement - any spell caster should have a wand of something that defeats archery.
You see in this campaign, very few foes were humanoids after around 8th level. Those that were I could pull maneuvers on and do OK, those that were not (a lot of them, and almost all the serious fights) I really struggled with (they often had DR and high AC as well).
The monk can do well if you play to his strengths, but playing to the monk's strengths is not like playing to everyone else's weaknesses, very often all the other combat classes are strong against foes the monk is strong against, but the reverse is not often true.
I'm not convinced its a secondary score.
Monk has a good wisdom score, but it's a secondary stat.
It's not really a secondary score, it's just the monk needs 4 abilities high to be average, against one main and 1 or 2 secondary for ALL the other classes (except the druid...).
A wizard ? INT as high as possible, and DEX+CON as secondary abilities
A Fighter ? STR as high as possible, and CON + (either DEX or INT) as secondary abilities (and usually WIS not a dump)
A cleric ? WIS as high as possible, and CON + CHA as secondary abilities
and I can continue forever with any class.
The enhanced ability to survive a trap the character accidentally triggers while scouting is a fundamental of the class. If a Ranger accidentally sets off a trap, he has an enhanced chance, compared to the monk, of being immobilized (or worse). Having a round or two of the enemy beating on you while you're immobilized and waiting for your party to catch up is bad.
While detecting and disarming traps is certainly preferable to just setting them off deliberately, from time to time traps will be set off by accident. When that happens, your Monk would have had a distinct advantage.But that wasn't a fundamental of the class, it was a choice I took. Class-to-class, neither class has Disable Device and the ranger has the advantage in scouting.
The thing is : in order to be a great scout, you need more than be silent and be quick.
You need to be perceptive, be able to disarm traps/open locks SILENTLY (=> without triggering them by running), be able to recognize what you see, to understand what you hear, to follow tracks you detect, to infiltrate in difficult situations (climb, swim, ...), etc...
A monk cannot do that. He simply can't. None of his "Skill monkey" level can. You need classes that are proficient with skills (or that have powers above skills alone, like spells or wildshape) to do that.
I think, in an actual combat, the monk's versatility is in the way he can change targets without having to worry about stuff like Wind Wall.
DPR isn't everything, there's also versatility. With access to all martial weapons a ranger has a lot more options available than the monk - most specifically, a ranger can be a switch hitter, a monk is always a melee fighter unless he's a Zen Archer. If you want a 5th wheel in a party, an archer is a good one to have, probably more useful than a monk. In all honesty, I try not to "abuse the rules" in my builds (take a look at my fighter, above - he's not over optimised or min-maxed, he's just a solid all-round fighter build). I'll knock up a ranger, though, if you want.
Wind wall is a joke. An archer can lock down a caster during the whole combat if he plays smart. A monk simply can't.
The monk doesn't have versatility either : he is melee only (except if you consider taking archetypes like Zen archer), he doesn't hit ofter, and he doesn't hit hard. Hell, even a wizard could have enough AC to be protected from half the monks attacks, before accounting his magical protections (Mirror image, Displacement, blur, Invisibility, Fly, ...).Uhm, duh? Sorry, its just that so many people miss the point you just made. Of...
The "fix" I favour to the monk is one that cuts back on damage but improves accuracy in hitting and the ability to bypass DR. It isn't all about damage, but about making the monk work with positive synergy between his abilities.
That is what the monk needs, that's true : powers that synergize each other. And something that allows him to do its role (the one in the description of the class).
Avh answered this pretty well, but for the record.
I'm not convinced its a secondary score.
Monk has a good wisdom score, but it's a secondary stat.
What can the monk do to a foe that does not involve making an attack roll of some sort on that foe?
That's right, pretty much nothing.
To successfully make an attack role, you need one of two stats maxed out: Strength or Dexterity. Look at every monk build listed here, and one of those two scores is pushed to the max - even on Ciretose's stunning fist monk. That's because if you don't have a high score, you don't have good odds to hit. You can't hit, nothing else is happening.
So Strength or Dexterity has to be primary, and that means Wisdom is secondary.
And before you trot out that same "Well, that's because you want the monk to be fighter" drivel, it's not: it's because the monk is a COMBAT CLASS. He's meant to fight, that's all he can do. If you don't believe me, take a look in Mythic Adventures, and see where the ability "Mythic Ki" sits. It's right there, under "Champion" next to "Mythic Rage".
Please stop trying to pretend the monk isn't meant to fight. Until the monk's attacks are based of his Wisdom score (which is a change I would LOVE to see introduced) that stat is going to stay secondary.
The enhanced ability to survive a trap the character accidentally triggers while scouting is a fundamental of the class. If a Ranger accidentally sets off a trap, he has an enhanced chance, compared to the monk, of being immobilized (or worse). Having a round or two of the enemy beating on you while you're immobilized and waiting for your party to catch up is bad.
While detecting and disarming traps is certainly preferable to just setting them off deliberately, from time to time traps will be set off by accident. When that happens, your Monk would have had a distinct advantage.But that wasn't a fundamental of the class, it was a choice I took. Class-to-class, neither class has Disable Device and the ranger has the advantage in scouting.
Well most traps are Fortitude or Reflex save based, so given that those are good saves for the Ranger, I don't see how your point is valid. If he does have the enemy beat on him, he has more hit points to soak the damage up than the monk. Even if you do get a Will-based attack, the ranger's Will save isn't going to be that far behind the monk's - he needs wisdom too in order to cast spells.
I think, in an actual combat, the monk's versatility is in the way he can change targets without having to worry about stuff like Wind Wall.
DPR isn't everything, there's also versatility. With access to all martial weapons a ranger has a lot more options available than the monk - most specifically, a ranger can be a switch hitter, a monk is always a melee fighter unless he's a Zen Archer. If you want a 5th wheel in a party, an archer is a good one to have, probably more useful than a monk. In all honesty, I try not to "abuse the rules" in my builds (take a look at my fighter, above - he's not over optimised or min-maxed, he's just a solid all-round fighter build). I'll knock up a ranger, though, if you want.
That's not versatility, that's running up to things and hitting them repeatedly. The ranger could stand in one place and full-attack everything he can see (and not every enemy is going to be protected by wind wall) - as likely that they will be flying and thus the monk cannot reach them). If he has to get into melee he can still fight reasonably well, and his favoured enemy bonus still counts. He has an animal companion that can flank with him and help out. He has spells he can use to buff himself and harass the enemy. The monk has none of these things. All he's got is run up and hit things and he isn't actually very good at that when you compare him to the other classes that do the same thing.
Uhm, duh? Sorry, its just that so many people miss the point you just made. Of course the monk build should care more about synergy and ability to hit than amount of damage per hit.
The "fix" I favour to the monk is one that cuts back on damage but improves accuracy in hitting and the ability to bypass DR. It isn't all about damage, but about making the monk work with positive synergy between his abilities.
Problem is the core monk doesn't get much in the way of synergy in his abilities, and some of them are just plain badly thought out and implemented (like wholeness of body and diamond soul). Increasing the monk's wisdom doesn't change this, either. Even the qingong isn't very well thought out, the abilities are a grab-bag that have some glaring omissions and some odd inclusions, but I will concede it is a huge improvement on the core monk.
If you really want to take a look at how I think the monk should be improved, my running tests are here. I'm looking at minimal changes to the core that will rock the boat very little but hopefully give the monk enough edge to hold his own.
Rendering the monk's land speed and agility irrelevant from that point onward, I must point out.On the flip side, there are many places where fly doesn't work. I mean A LOT of places (like 99% of underground and in most buildings).
Fly works fine indoors and underground. It's just that it confers few particular advantages there unless you have a high ceiling, other than faster movement. Given the confines of these places, faster movement isn't very significant either.
Edit:
That is what the monk needs, that's true : powers that synergize each other. And something that allows him to do its role (the one in the description of the class).That's what the monk has if you stop trying to use him like a fighter in a saffron robe.
No, he doesn't have the ability to do his role (if you treat his 'role' as that listed in the class description). That's just the point, that's why so many people agree (including the developers!) that the monk is a weak class. Stop making him effective in combat and he can do even less of his stated role.
A monk should have a higher Per than a Ranger. And, as I pointed out earlier, while it is true that a good scout should have knowledge skills, the ability to detect traps, a high base move, evasion, all high saves, etc. NONE of the classes offer everything that is needed to be the ideal scout. They each offer only part what is required.
Nope : Monks and ranger starts usually with the same wisdom. But the ranger have bonuses to perception as class powers, while the monk don't.
Maxed out? I'm not convinced that's true.
To successfully make an attack role, you need one of two stats maxed out: Strength or Dexterity.
But it's indeed true. The monk IS a fighter. The reason is he NEEDS to be able to hit to do anything, from doing a manoeuver to succeeding to hit with at least one of its flurry attack.
There are 2 problems for him : he has 3/4 BAB. So if he moves, he sucks (so he can't move to the wizard and lock him up, as he will often not even manage to hit such a easy target, without accounting for magic protections.
If Wisdom is his first ability (or even he maxed it out, as you suggest he should), his other abilities will not be beyond 13 or 14 (before magic items). So it is another -2 to -4 to every attack rolls compared to a Fighter/Barbarian/... Worse, he hit less often than the rogue, who, him, maxed out DEX.
Please quote where I said the monk isn't meant to fight. Every class is meant to fight. But, every class has different ways of fighting. What I said is that the Monk should not be used to fight like the Fighter class.
Please stop trying to pretend the monk isn't meant to fight.
You're playing with words : the monk ONLY have combat abilities that push him to attack in melee his target. It's not as if he had some sneak attack, or bonus with manoeuvers, or ways to deal with special villains. He has nothing except good endurance (good saves, spell resistance, immunity, ...), but that doesn't help win encounters.
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Immunity to poison, spell resistance, and if the character does get trapped in a trap, the monk has abundant step. So, yeah, your point that Fort is a good save for the Ranger is invalid.
Well most traps are Fortitude or Reflex save based, so given that those are good saves for the Ranger, I don't see how your point is valid. If he does have the enemy beat on him, he has more hit points to soak the damage up than the monk. Even if you do get a Will-based attack, the ranger's Will save isn't going to be that far behind the monk's - he needs wisdom too in order to cast spells.
Sorry, but spell resistance is a joke, cause the spellcaster that the group goes against are usually several levels above the group. So it means that the SR will be negligible against enemy spells. At the contrary, the group's cleric will not often take Spell penetration, and so half the buff/heal during combat will be lost if directed on the character (and the monk is the one that needs buff the most).
Poison is rare, and easily dealt with most of the time. Traps are a joke.
When the character can change his target from round to round; harassing the enemy wizard in the enemy's rear flank, then as they reorient to get a defender back there, moving over to help your the rogue flank on one side of the board, then getting a potion to the fighter on the other side of the board then helping defend the party wizard in the rear and then on and on, that's versatility. Plucking arrows and swinging swords is just DPR.
That's not versatility, that's running up to things and hitting them repeatedly.
You say "harassing the enemy wizard", but I see at least X problems to that :
1 => You need to start before the wizard.2 => You need to manage to reach the wizard before he cast his first protection spell
3 => You need to be able to hit the wizard.
4 => Those hit(s) need to be able to harass the wizard in such a way that he won't be able to cast spells.
The Tetori can manage the 4th point. Others... not so much.
As you're so fond of saying, DPR isn't everything.
The ranger could stand in one place and full-attack everything he can see (and not every enemy is going to be protected by wind wall) - as likely that they will be flying and thus the monk cannot reach them).
Except that for a "warrior-type" of class, it IS everything.
If you're still doubting the goal of the monk is to be a warrior class, I quote the PRD for you :
For the truly exemplary, martial skill transcends the battlefield—it is a lifestyle, a doctrine, a state of mind. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade. These monks (so called since they adhere to ancient philosophies and strict martial disciplines) elevate their bodies to become weapons of war, from battle-minded ascetics to self-taught brawlers. Monks tread the path of discipline, and those with the will to endure that path discover within themselves not what they are, but what they are meant to be.
I think it's pretty obvious by itself, but I bolded some part I found important.
Why are you foused on the core monk? There's a lot that has been added to the monk that is not in the CRB.
Cause most of the archetypes of the monk have the same problems as the core monk. Those who manage to surpass that are either not really monks anymore (Sohei with armor and reach weapon, Zen archer) or super specialized in something (I heard the Tetori could manage very good in his field).
It is very hard to make a decent monk, as it needs to take specific races, archetypes AND feats to manage to do what the class says the monk does : hitting things with his bare hands and foot.