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This is all about the dynamics of the game. I have 2 main goals in my game...to make the players feel like they have the real heroes of the world, and to make the monsters even more monstrous...and actually a bit scary.
You see, I'm a big fan of horror...good horror, that is. Lovecraft, Poe...and a handful of the newer authors.
Here's how I manage to fit that all in one game:
NPCs are lower level than standard. There are very few NPCs over 10th level in the world...and most that are, are evil, or neutral at best. They aren't out to save the world, at any rate.
PCs have better stats, as a rule, too.
Now...once the PCs get past 5th-6th level, there are almost no good characters that are decidedly better...in their area. The sheriff might be a 5th level fighter. There's usually a higher level cleric, for emergencies...but they're of the non-combat variety...wearing light armor at best, and not being strong or tough. Hey, they run a temple, they have their duties.
So...NPCs are a CR or 2 lower, generally...while real monster encounters are PL+1 or +2, at a minimum. Sure, there are other encounters...humanoids, for example...'monsters' of a sort...but they're usually not powerful, and in groups, just so that the PCs can feel their power. A half-dozen orcs, led by one 2nd level Bbn, and the 6th lvl fighter can shrug and tell the rest of the party to carry on, he'll handle it. He's the stuff of legends...in the making...they're simple speedbumps.
Not so, the monster. It's a slavering beast that attacks from the darkness, almost slaying one of the weaker party members in an instant...it inspires FEAR.
Now...when there's a huge troll up in the hills eating the local farmers' children, the PCs are the ONLY choice to take care of it. They're the only ones who can.
I find Darkvision to be a much bigger obstacle in inspiring horror than the level of NPCs back in town.
I've been attracted to the idea of running a game where pretty much every fight was EL APL+2 or +3. My last group would have loved the challenge.
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You sound like you're going in two different directions. Heroism and horror usually work against each other. Being a hero is mostly about saving the poor defenseless villagers, while horror is most effective when you keep the heroes confused and unable to save anyone.
How heroic are the main characters in a Lovecraft novel? They are usually curious to a fault, and often willing to go far to satisfy that curiosity, but when they encounter evil they are always more desperate than heroic. And most of them end up being insane, missing or dead as well.
I'm not speaking against horror here, I'm actually running a rather efficient horror game myself currently. But horror should be run in short adventures, not long campaigns, or it will quickly lose it's bite. Also; a good horror game should always make the players feel lost, alone and in more trouble than they can manage, which clashes loudly with feeling heroic and awesome.
If you want to run a game with heroism and horror, I recommend that you alternate between the two, with more heroism than horror. And you should really get your hands on the "rise of the runelords ap, the hill billy ogres are beautifully disturbing and horrible, while most of the ap is quite heroic, great inspiration :-)
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I find Darkvision to be a much bigger obstacle in inspiring horror than the level of NPCs back in town.
I've been attracted to the idea of running a game where pretty much every fight was EL APL+2 or +3. My last group would have loved the challenge.
If darkvision is the issue, keep the monster hidden in other ways...or simply make it horrifying, whether it's easily seen or not. I love to foreshadow...the party doesn't even find the monster, too quickly, instead, running across its handiwork...tracking it back to its den...its old den, that is, where something else has just moved in...I've been known to keep a party guessing for a while...and then, at night, it attacks...when someone who doesn't have darkvision is on watch...sure, the screams wake the party, and I don't want to kill characters...but they'll remember it!
I find Darkvision to be a much bigger obstacle in inspiring horror than the level of NPCs back in town.
I've been attracted to the idea of running a game where pretty much every fight was EL APL+2 or +3. My last group would have loved the challenge.
Darkvision is only 60 feet ... what's that shape at the edge of your vision? ;)
I mostly find that fight's is just fights, no matter the cl. Some of them are obviously very hard and should be avoided, while others are acceptable risks. Horror should be the little nagging voice in your head telling you that something is very wrong, the sure knowledge that you are seeing or hearing things that cannot possibly be true, and yet you do.
Horror is something you slowly make your players believe in, not something decided by stats or challenge levels :-)
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You sound like you're going in two different directions. Heroism and horror usually work against each other. Being a hero is mostly about saving the poor defenseless villagers, while horror is most effective when you keep the heroes confused and unable to save anyone.
How heroic are the main characters in a Lovecraft novel? They are usually curious to a fault, and often willing to go far to satisfy that curiosity, but when they encounter evil they are always more desperate than heroic. And most of them end up being insane, missing or dead as well.
I'm not speaking against horror here, I'm actually running a rather efficient horror game myself currently. But horror should be run in short adventures, not long campaigns, or it will quickly lose it's bite. Also; a good horror game should always make the players feel lost, alone and in more trouble than they can manage, which clashes loudly with feeling heroic and awesome.
If you want to run a game with heroism and horror, I recommend that you alternate between the two, with more heroism than horror. And you should really get your hands on the "rise of the runelords ap, the hill billy ogres are beautifully disturbing and horrible, while most of the ap is quite heroic, great inspiration :-)
You see, I'm not really running it as a horror game...it's just that, while all games have threats...the threats are MONSTERS. Yeah, the warlord over there in the next kingdom is tough...but he's really not that much more than the fighter. Alone. Sure, he has troops, but the party could wade through them.
Every once in a while, a classic BBEG is great...but in that style of game, often as not, it's a monster, not just another human. The idea isn't so much that the party ends up terrified all the time...but that they understand it's a challenge...and THEY are the heroes. There is no 15th level wizard that they go to on a regular basis that could just poof it away...but always has better things to do.
You sound like you're going in two different directions. Heroism and horror usually work against each other. Being a hero is mostly about saving the poor defenseless villagers, while horror is most effective when you keep the heroes confused and unable to save anyone.
How heroic are the main characters in a Lovecraft novel? They are usually curious to a fault, and often willing to go far to satisfy that curiosity, but when they encounter evil they are always more desperate than heroic. And most of them end up being insane, missing or dead as well.
I'm not speaking against horror here, I'm actually running a rather efficient horror game myself currently. But horror should be run in short adventures, not long campaigns, or it will quickly lose it's bite. Also; a good horror game should always make the players feel lost, alone and in more trouble than they can manage, which clashes loudly with feeling heroic and awesome.
If you want to run a game with heroism and horror, I recommend that you alternate between the two, with more heroism than horror. And you should really get your hands on the "rise of the runelords ap, the hill billy ogres are beautifully disturbing and horrible, while most of the ap is quite heroic, great inspiration :-)
You see, I'm not really running it as a horror game...it's just that, while all games have threats...the threats are MONSTERS. Yeah, the warlord over there in the next kingdom is tough...but he's really not that much more than the fighter. Alone. Sure, he has troops, but the party could wade through them.
Every once in a while, a classic BBEG is great...but in that style of game, often as not, it's a monster, not just another human. The idea isn't so much that the party ends up terrified all the time...but that they understand it's a challenge...and THEY are the heroes. There is no 15th level wizard that they go to on a regular basis that could just poof it away...but always has better things to do.
I see. Thank you formaking it clear :-)
One thing I would suggest is perhaps running game with less gear rewards. Think of it like survival horror where you need to conserve ammunition because running out means the zombies get you. It would force the PCs to rely more on their own abilities and that makes it more heroic, IMHO.
Imagine playing a game where enhancement bonuses don't exist, and you NEED specific material weapons to fight the evil and undead, and just how rare those might be.
Reminds me of the 3rd edition version of ravenloft released by white-wolf. That was a really cool book.
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One thing I would suggest is perhaps running game with less gear rewards. Think of it like survival horror where you need to conserve ammunition because running out means the zombies get you. It would force the PCs to rely more on their own abilities and that makes it more heroic, IMHO.
Imagine playing a game where enhancement bonuses don't exist, and you NEED specific material weapons to fight the evil and undead, and just how rare those might be.
Reminds me of the 3rd edition version of ravenloft released by white-wolf. That was a really cool book.
That could be done, yes...and it is pretty interesting. It's not what I'm doing at the moment, though...but I figured...I worked out this style of game a few years back, after over 30 years of GMing...just figured others might get something out of it. :)