There are enough stealth gripe/complaint threads that we don't need another. That being said, how would one target or attack a target that is both flying and invisible?
I am working on a character has a Fly speed (via Hexcrafter Flight Hex) that is also Invisible (via Vanish) as early as level 5. Spell Combat allows a Magus to attack (canceling prior round's Vanish) and then recast Vanish as part of the same full round action. An optional 5 foot step (if flying, moving less than 1/2 speed requires a DC15 Fly check) and you are set up for the next round. Invisibility granted by Vanish would even cancel out the -2 from spell combat as you would get a +2 attacking while invisible. This seems to me like it could emulate Greater Invisibility until you ran out of level 1 spell slots for Vanish (Wand Wielder arcana?). Flying and a reach weapon (or Lunge) would effectively allow this character to be out of range for the majority of melee attacks from earthbound foes. Add to that total concealment's 50% miss chance, which would only even come into play if the attacker can determine the square for targeting. Which comes to my question...
I assume that the Perception chance to notice an invisible enemy who is moving on the ground is less than that of one moving in the air, but I'm not sure the rules support this. Flight via the spell is not going to buffet the air such as winged flight, so there wouldn't really be any way to sense where the target is hovering above. The character should enjoy the +20 to Stealth checks to determine location, but is it more since they are not touching anything that could give away location, even when moving?
Follow up: Would this character get +40 stealth if while flying and invisible he just hovered (same DC15 Fly check), or does hover count as movement against stealth and invisibility?
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There are enough stealth gripe/complaint threads that we don't need another. That being said, how would one target or attack a target that is both flying and invisible?
The rules don't have an exact answer for this one, I expect some will agree with, some will think I don't know what I'm talking about, but this is how I would adjudicate it and why.
First off when this becomes an issue. I remove the miniature from the table. I then keep track of the invisible creatures position relative to the last know spot. If a player wants to guess at a square and give me an altitude they can simply do that. Given the limitations of the 5-foot step, this hardly makes the tactic as good as Greater Invisibility.
Nothing in the rules suggest that different forms of movement are inherently more stealthy than another. Remember, stealth and perception also rely on hearing, such as the jingling of equipment, or even smell. Since I don't typically apply circumstance bonuses to perception (too many variables to argue over) I would just leave it as it is. You get the +20 bonus while walking or flying.
I'd base my ruling on the phrase: "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Stealth checks if you are immobile." One definition of 'immobile' is "motionless." If you need to use motion to stay airborne then you don't count as immobile. Since your flight is a Supernatural ability it doesn't involve flapping. So, you get the +40 while hovering. An alchemist with wings (extraordinary ability) would only get +20.
I'd agree with Tim, although if you attacked and casts vanish, then 5 ft stepped and rolled stealth, I would only give you the +20 not +40. Reason for me is that you weren't immobile on your turn. Now if you went the entire next turn not moving I would up it to +40.
I do like his idea of just removing the mini from the table, sounds like a great way to give the invisible "feel".
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Spell Combat allows a Magus to attack (canceling prior round's Vanish) and then recast Vanish as part of the same full round action.
Please for the love of Sarenrae don't waste spell combat on vanish...
You could be decimating them with a shocking grasp crit, or corrosive touch
Faerie fire works quite nicely against this tactic -- ready an action to cast it as soon as you see them. The nice long-range no-save burst will coat them in a nice visible concealment-negating glow.
Ditto glitterdust, but it doesn't have quite the range.
Please for the love of Sarenrae don't waste spell combat on vanish...
You could be decimating them with a shocking grasp crit, or corrosive touch
Don't worry. This is an alternate tactic that I am just playing around with.
Believe me, at level 5 a Spellstrike Shocking Grasp via Dervish Scimitar with a +14 attack dealing 6d6+10 and crit range of 15-20 is just too good to pass up.
... how would one target or attack a target that is both flying and invisible? ...
Same way we attack all invisible targets: glitterdust, see invisibility, perception checks, scent... and did I meantion true seeing?
I think readying powder or chalk might also work.
Also purge invisibility, and since it is an ongoing emanation even if vanish is cast again it wont matter.
So as a CR4 Encounter as a storyteller he could run an NPC doing the exact same tactic. Would that Total Party Kill your group at 4th level? What tactics would they have prepared to counter something like this?
I am in agreement 5 step move or taking any non-purely mental action at all violates "not moving" and would forfeit the +40. +40 is for the freeze in place, and breath very quietly type stealth.
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glitterdust is great against invisible creatures, but that's not generally available until CL 3 or 4 arcane spellcasting; not all groups take it (it's something more veteran gamers choose); and you can run into CR 4 creatures long before your party is APL 4.