See I never understood how a sorcerer would start as one and than go wizard. Dont you generally study to be a wizard? How'd you find time to study in between goblin raid 1 and kobold dungeon 2. Correspondence courses via message spells?Was going to read through all the posts until I got to this one, which is a common question, and one GMs can rake a player through the muck with.
Level increase is often considered "you acquired enough experience in doing what you've done through the previous levels to gain another level." While that is true, its not limited to "only what I've done in combat."
Level increase can encompass what you're character has been learning during that time when the GM fast forwards. "The trip to town takes you a little under a week." "The trek through the sea goes smoothly, and the crew docks your ship after three weeks underway." "You figure its a three day hike through the hills before you reach the temple." These are all perfect opportunities for characters to be learning what they'll be gaining next level. Any GM who tells you "you didn't directly tell me your character was actively training to multiclass, so it didn't happen" deserves to be slapped. Character progression is only ever in the hands of the PC, its the last vestige of the game that is 100% the players*.
For the quoted statement, it would be actually very easy to pick up wizard as a sorcerer, and vice versa. Your character is already tooling arcane energies, it would be almost natural for an intelligent sorcerer to learn to shape it in ways wizards do, and for a wizard to realize during his travels that he has latent natural arcane tendancies.
*The only exception to the above is if your new class is so far removed from continuity its hard to make happen. A brick of a Fighter who's never seen a spell form, book or scroll, and hasn't been outside of his training academy in the martial prowess, would have a hard time selling how he acquired Magic Missile. A travelling Fighter who has a...
I understand what it meant. I just view wizards as school trained. I wouldnt ban it or anything as a DM. I just snicker and move on. It just doesnt mesh well in MY head but I wouldnt stop someone from pursuing it. They may get a bit of bonus xp if they can explain and role play it in a good way though.
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So your resource of choice was splat books then. Because you see, my fighter didn't really use any of those. Oh yes a spell here or there...or an item, but I haven't touch of archetypes and the MCing options like you have. Like I said, it's a pretty basic fighter...one that isn't even REMOTELY optimized for DPR. My fighter build is easy enough for completely new players to grasp and play within 10 min of me explaining it to them...can you say the same for yours? And I don't mean the whole wizard aspect (which I will grant is just gonna go over new player head)...I mean just doing the DPR thing.
And you could not out DPR a basic, bare minimum I do DPR build. That by default means your not very good at DPR.
And PFS!=NORM. Seriously, your using the PFS swap out scribe scroll at level 1 as part of your build? Seriously? Is this a PFS specific thread? I could have sworn not.
Your don't need spell penetration you say? You think your elf bonus of +12 to caster level checks is enough? Rakshasa at CR 10 has a SR of 25 (so you need a 13+...9+ if you have the two spell penetration feats)...which I admit is on the high side. At CR 12, the green dragon is SR 23. CR 13 the ice devil and Glabrezu are SR 24. Heck even a nabasu at CR 8 has SR 19 and the babau at CR 6 has SR 17. Yeah way to sell you know how to play a wizard by ignoring one of your bloody glaring weakness and not taking spell penetration line for the spell you plan on using like what was it again? 11 times per day? Great idea there.
Wait, I can't cast min/level buffs before fights and have it up for a pretty long time? I could have SWORN you could. Or do you expect silly bad play? You know having min/level and 10 min/level and hour/level spells up and running before fights is not that unreasonable.
And yes PFS is one of those scenarios where blasting actually is pretty good for a VAST majority of them. There are a lot of weak mooks and the bosses have pretty piddly HP compared to what you see in most APs. If PFS (or the couple of APs that has a large chunk of the enemies be low HP humanoid enemies in hoards...or home games as such) is all you play, your view of this is skewed...badly.
So your resource of choice was splat books then. Because you see, my fighter didn't really use any of those. Oh yes a spell here or there...or an item, but I haven't touch of archetypes and the MCing options like you have. Like I said, it's a pretty basic fighter...one that isn't even REMOTELY optimized for DPR.
If by "splat books" you mean UM, UC, APG, and ARG then yes. My wizard is actually what Trentmonk would call a "god wizard", that has the cool ability to blast the stuffing out of things too.
My fighter build is easy enough for completely new players to grasp and play within 10 min of me explaining it to them...can you say the same for yours? And I don't mean the whole wizard aspect (which I will grant is just gonna go over new player head)...I mean just doing the DPR thing.
No more difficult than playing a Cleric.
And you could not out DPR a basic, bare minimum I do DPR build. That by default means your not very good at DPR.
And yet under most circumstances, and completely naked, I could keep up with your fighter. Actually, under most circumstances, I'll do more while you prepare and try to move and deal with flying creatures etc. (see below for the awesome examples you've provided).
And PFS!=NORM. Seriously, your using the PFS swap out scribe scroll at level 1 as part of your build? Seriously? Is this a PFS specific thread? I could have sworn not.
Wow Cold you got me, you completely negated my whole build... wait I've only talked about 3 feats at 10th level A wizard will have 6... Hmm I think that's fixable.
Your don't need spell penetration you say? You think your elf bonus of +12 to caster level checks is enough? Rakshasa at CR 10 has a SR of 25 (so you need a 13+...9+ if you have the two spell penetration feats)...which I admit is on the high side. At CR 12, the green dragon is SR 23. CR 13 the ice devil and Glabrezu are SR 24. Heck even a nabasu at CR 8 has SR 19 and the babau at CR 6 has SR 17. Yeah way to sell you know how to play a wizard by ignoring one of your bloody glaring weakness and not taking spell penetration line for the spell you plan on using like what was it again? 11 times per day? Great idea there.
Actually, I don't think I'm the one that needs the lesson. You do realize that at 10th level you're CR 9 right? IF you're fighting CR 13 monsters, you're in the wrong game, but let's pit those same monsters against your fighter, and see how he fares, shall we?
Rakshasa - Fighter has what a 3 WILL save? That's gonna hurt against a Rakshasa. Wizard switches all 2nd level spells to intensified snowballs 9d6+14 no SR. Fighter is useless due to Rakshasa's will save spells.Green Dragon - Dragon's Fly. Fighter DPR = 0, Wizard can use snowball trick again.
Ice Devil - Can fly, again 0 DPR for the fighter. Wizard Launches firey snowballs.
Glabrezu - Confusion DC 19, Wizard needs a 9 (with +4 cloak that the fighter can't afford) Fighter 16.
nabasu - Wizard needs a 7 to do full damage, fighter does 0 because it flies.
babau - Wizard needs a 4, but will lose 10 point of damage due to DR all energy types. Fighter will also lose 10 due to DR/Cold Iron but even when he hits will have to make DC 18 Reflex (so needs a 15) or it will destroy his weapon.
Got anymore great examples to show how much more useful a wizard is?
Wait, I can't cast min/level buffs before fights and have it up for a pretty long time? I could have SWORN you could. Or do you expect silly bad play? You know having min/level and 10 min/level and hour/level spells up and running before fights is not that unreasonable.
You're right, for a wizard. For you your using a wand. So you're telling me you have a 10th level wand of enlarge person? That's 7500 gold so now you're up to 57k for your weapon, gloves, belt, and 1 wand, you have 5k for armor, your other wand (is that 10th level too?), and whatever scrolls you're going to use... tell me again how I don't know how to play, that makes me giggle.
And yes PFS is one of those scenarios where blasting actually is pretty good for a VAST majority of them. There are a lot of weak mooks and the bosses have pretty piddly HP compared to what you see in most APs. If PFS (or the couple of APs that has a large chunk of the enemies be low HP humanoid enemies in hoards...or home games as such) is all you play, your view of this is skewed...badly.
So I can't use PFS scenarios as examples, and I can't use Adventure Paths... So basically what you're saying, is if I was in the same home game as you, that pits CR 9 PC's against CR 13 monsters, a blasting wizard is hindered. Well, to be honest, I think I can accept that.
So again those that aren't Cold Napalm and have an open mind, Wizards can make some mean blasters.
The main reason for Specialist over Universalist is simple: Bonus spells trump extra metamagic.
At level 8, the Universalist gets his first slot of free metamagic. By that time, the SPecialist has a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level bonus slot...+10 Spell levels. If he wants a spell with metamagic on it, he simply memorizes it.
The universalist continues to get +1 additional spell level every 2 levels. The Specialist gets a 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level bonus spell, ending up with +45 levels vs +7. The specialist has to modify his spells ahead of time, vs. the universalist, it is true...but he has so many more spell slots, it's not a serious imposition.
On top of that, metamagic rods allow the specialist to modify on the fly, which shoots the universalist power in the foot, as well.
Wizards can be built to be terrifyingly effective blasters. The 'core blaster' build can easily put out 100 HP of blasting damage in a go at level 10. The fighter's ability is he can do that to one opponent in one round all day...barring running out of hit points. The wizard is more limited, but he can do it at range, and to multiple targets, that is definitely worth something.
==Aelryinth
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Here's the breakdown damage of the blaster caster, WITHOUT GEAR. Yes, this is just feats.
BY LEVEL
At level 1, your Burning Hands should be 2d4+4 (avg 9)
At level 2, its unchanged.
At level 3, Spell Specialization kicks in. 5d4+10 (22.5). This tops it unless you Intensify it.
At 4th, 6d4+12 (27), Intensified BH.
At 5th, Intensified BH, 7d4+14 (31.5).
At 6th, you can shift Spec to Scorching Ray. 2x 4d6+8 (44). Your Fireball is 5d6+10 as well, or 7d6+14 if specced.
At 7th, 6d6+12 fireball, or 8d6+18 if spec. An Empowered, Intensified Burning Hands, if still the spec spell, is 13.5d4+27 (about 60).
8th - Empowered Scorching Ray, 2 x 6d6+12. E/I BH is 15d6+30 (74, max)
9th - Intensified, Specialized Fireball is 11d6+22 (51).
10th - Firesnake. E/Spec Fireball is 15d6+30 (74). Emp Scorching Rays are 3 x 6d6+12, or 18d6+36 (99 dmg). You can now Quicken a Burning Hands or Magic Missile as kicker damage in a round, although you've few slots.
12th - E/I/Spec Fireball is 21d6+42 (115) damage. You can now Quicken a 12d6+24 Scorching Ray.
14th level - A Specialized Firesnake now exceeds/equals an intensified Fireball. Fireball caps at 22.5d6+ 45 (123~) damage. An Empowered Firesnake is 24d6+48 (132) damage. You can now Quicken a 10d6+20 Fireball. Intensified, Empowered Scorching Ray tops out at 24d6+48 (132 dmg)
15th level - Spell Perfection. You can now add a Meta for Free. This will be Quicken or Empower. Intensified might be free if Magical Lineage applies to it. Caster level buffs for spec spell exceed +5, so top out at 20d6 dmg at 15th level. You will miss Spell Resistance rolls against CR appropriate enemies on a 1.
Assuming Firesnake, you can now cast a Quickened Intensified Firesnake for 20d6+40 (110) damage out of a 5th level slot, and an Empowered Firesnake out of the same slot for 30d6+60 (165) damage. Using a 7th level slot, you can Empower both.
16th+ - Damage remains the same, higher level spell slots are open for use of other Metas or control spells.
Conceivably you could use Disintegrate to get a higher damage total, but the delay isn't worth it, and you'd lose the Varisian tattoo bonus.
If your DM allows you Twin Spell from 3.5, you can very, very easily clock in at 495 raw dmg/round. IF he allows Arcane Thesis, god help your enemies.
Note: This was designed before Snowball.
==Aelryinth
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So your resource of choice was splat books then. Because you see, my fighter didn't really use any of those. Oh yes a spell here or there...or an item, but I haven't touch of archetypes and the MCing options like you have. Like I said, it's a pretty basic fighter...one that isn't even REMOTELY optimized for DPR.If by "splat books" you mean UM, UC, APG, and ARG then yes. My wizard is actually what Trentmonk would call a "god wizard", that has the cool ability to blast the stuffing out of things too.
Yeah...those would be splat books. What the hell kind of assumption do you run when somebody say core?!?
My fighter build is easy enough for completely new players to grasp and play within 10 min of me explaining it to them...can you say the same for yours? And I don't mean the whole wizard aspect (which I will grant is just gonna go over new player head)...I mean just doing the DPR thing.No more difficult than playing a Cleric.
So explaining ONE aspect of your character is about as hard as an ENTIRE full caster class...yeah you just proved my point right there about the difference in complexity right there. I put up a pretty BASIC fighter build. Not optimized...at all. Something somebody new to the game when pointed to a few things can easily figure out on their own. And you STILL couldn't out DPR it.
And PFS!=NORM. Seriously, your using the PFS swap out scribe scroll at level 1 as part of your build? Seriously? Is this a PFS specific thread? I could have sworn not.Wow Cold you got me, you completely negated my whole build... wait I've only talked about 3 feats at 10th level A wizard will have 6... Hmm I think that's fixable.
So you use up 3 for greater spell specialization. 1 for selective spell (or do you not mind killing allies? Because seriously, if you started tossing fireballs willy nilly in PFS, I'd have you banned pretty quickly. Speaking of which, for PFS, this is even worse. You retire at level 12 (mostly) and your can't take selective spell til 10 so you have 2 whole levels you can enjoy this at...but that is kind of a Segway. And if your not PFS and you actually meet things with SR by level 10, you gonna want the two spell penetration...which is all your feats. You have no room for crafting or other meta magics. In normal games crafting will boost power levels WAY more then the ability to do less damage then the damage dealers will.
Rakshasa - Fighter has what a 3 WILL save? That's gonna hurt against a Rakshasa. Wizard switches all 2nd level spells to intensified snowballs 9d6+14 no SR. Fighter is useless due to Rakshasa's will save spells.
Green Dragon - Dragon's Fly. Fighter DPR = 0, Wizard can use snowball trick again.
Ice Devil - Can fly, again 0 DPR for the fighter. Wizard Launches firey snowballs.
Glabrezu - Confusion DC 19, Wizard needs a 9 (with +4 cloak that the fighter can't afford) Fighter 16.
nabasu - Wizard needs a 7 to do full damage, fighter does 0 because it flies.
babau - Wizard needs a 4, but will lose 10 point of damage due to DR all energy types. Fighter will also lose 10 due to DR/Cold Iron but even when he hits will have to make DC 18 Reflex (so needs a 15) or it will destroy his weapon.
Why does my fighter have a will save of 3 at level 10? Once again, you assume ABSOLUTE stupid play as your excuse. So we are looking at 9d6+14 vs what was the fighter damage output again? The dragon flies...within CLOSE range spells? So now we not only assume the fighter player is stupid but so is the critters...okay then. And the fighter at level 10 doesn't have a fly method...yeah...okay seriously, you need to stop with the whole world plays super badly so your build works BS. Oh and your fiery snowball vs the ice devil will do NOTHING...they are immune. And the babau slime does NOTHING to a magical sword. It has a slight chance to do something to a +1 wooden weapon and does nothing is it's +2 or higher. The slime must break the hardness of the item on a 1d8 to do anything. Oh and if my fighter does straight enhancement, cold iron is ignored. Your not only assuming bad play here, your just flat out breaking the rules now.
You're right, for a wizard. For you your using a wand. So you're telling me you have a 10th level wand of enlarge person? That's 7500 gold so now you're up to 57k for your weapon, gloves, belt, and 1 wand, you have 5k for armor, your other wand (is that 10th level too?), and whatever scrolls you're going to use... tell me again how I don't know how to play, that makes me giggle.
And why do I need CL 10 wands? 3 works pretty well. Do you have any idea how much dungeon you can clear in 3 min if you do the kill everything first and search later method? One that anyone who uses active buffs should fully endorse.
So I can't use PFS scenarios as examples, and I can't use Adventure Paths... So basically what you're saying, is if I was in the same home game as you, that pits CR 9 PC's against CR 13 monsters, a blasting wizard is hindered. Well, to be honest, I think I can accept that.
So again those that aren't Cold Napalm and have an open mind, Wizards can make some mean blasters.
I did not say you can't use APs in general...but ones like shackles which has a high amount of low level humanoid encounters with nice fireball space and low HPs will skew your view somewhat (seriously, evocation is probably a top tier school for the AP). Most of the other APs are not like that. They are in fact more along the lines of one powerful boss with a few decent mooks. CR of APL+4 is COMMON in APs and even some of the season 4 run +4 of the HIGHEST level of tier (which means you can be in a APL 7 game play up and face a CR13 critter...hell you can be level 5, end up playing up due to table and face a CR 13 critter...it's great fun). See the fact that you seem to think that facing something APL+4 (and I was only giving examples to +3) is somehow uncommon proves my point. You use to PFS...where blasting is actually VERY VALID. I play PFS, I don't doubt that blasting as a wizard is quite effective is a very good chunk of situations there. Do in most APs and your gonna find a different answer. Do it in home games that are HARDER then APs where APL+6 or even 8 happen...and yeah don't even bother.
This thread has turned colossally stupid. Is this supposed be who can do more damage? Boom barbarian and/or vivisectionist alchemist. /thread
This thread has turned colossally stupid. Is this supposed be who can do more damage? Boom barbarian and/or vivisectionist alchemist. /threadI just find it funny they're making the fighter a 2 hander.
Fighter Longbow (11 feats in no order)
1. Deadly Aim
2. Point Blank
3. Precise shot
4. Rapid shot
5. Manyshot
6. Clustered
7. Weapon Focus
8. Great Weapon Focus
9. Weapon Spec
10. Iron will
11. Improved Iron will15k Gloves of dueling
9k +2 Adaptive Bow
4k Bracers of the Falcon
12k Boots of Speed40k spent
To hit (assume easily 22 Dex)
10 BAB + 1 Point Blank + 2 Weap Foc + 4 Weapon training + 2 Weap + 1 Bracers + 6 Dex +1 boots -2 Rapid -3 deadly = +22
+22 2d8+34 (assuming str of 14)
+22/22/17 1d8+17Against AC 28 for CR 13 creature
.75*43*1.2+2.0*21.5*1.2=90.3 DPR against a creature 3 CR above your level, no buffing spells or anything.
pwnt
owned = pwned = pwnt
a way to end internet cock measuring contests like the one above.
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This thread has turned colossally stupid. Is this supposed be who can do more damage? Boom barbarian and/or vivisectionist alchemist. /threadI just find it funny they're making the fighter a 2 hander.
That was kind of the point tho. The fighter is your standard not really very good DPR fighter. It's suppose to be kinda on the low end for doing his job.
Yeah...those would be splat books. What the hell kind of assumption do you run when somebody say core?!?
What are you 12? Quit trying to make yourself sound intelligent and get "digs" in. You're failing miserably. Splat books are non-Paizo where I come from.
To answer a few of your questions:
No the fighter can't fly, he has 5k and hasn't bought armor yet.
Yes his WILL save is 3 he has a 10 WIS and no money for items to raise it.
He's reflex save is a 4 because he has a 12 DEX and no money to raise it.
If you can fly you can't hover you have 12 DEX and no skill points left for fly skill, so you're only making 1 attack per round, wizard wins again.
I'm not saying anyone is playing stupid, you're the one that built the guy, if it's stupid, don't blame me. Right, everyone just charges through a dungeon without searching every room. I mean it's happened exactly never in my 20 some years of playing. And no explaining my ENTIRE character is as difficult as playing a Cleric. You have X spells, you can trade them out for Y spells when you want and add metamagic as a full round. Yup I think that's a pretty simple explanation.
What I really want to say, is that my initial premise wasn't that a Wizard can out DPR a Fighter, you turned into that, my initial premise was that a Wizard can be effective as a blaster. Nothing you've said has disproved that in the least, you've actually helped my case by listing those monsters that your fighter is useless against.
So all that said, the post right after yours is completely right, for those of you keeping score at home, here's my list of feats at 10th level, keeping in mind that I went Teleport instead of Admixture. You don't need Elemental Spell if you go Admixture like I suggest above. My GM also don't like crafting, so we use PFS rules for Spell Focus, but even so I took Breadth of Experience, and Elemental Spell, so one of those could be traded out for Spell Focus instead, and the other could be Skill Focus: Basket weaving. No theory crafting, no changing what I said because based on the argument at hand. This is the build.
Breadth of Experience
Elemental Spell (Acid)
Elven Weapon Proficiencies
Eschew Materials
Greater Spell Specialization
Intensified Spell
Magical Lineage (Fireball)
Reactionary
Selective Spell
Simple Weapon Proficiency - All
Spell Focus (Evocation)
Spell Specialization (Fireball)
Varisian Tattoo (Evocation)
Wizard Weapon Proficiencies
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Wow...just wow. Your fighters make a habit of not taking iron will and improved iron will with their gobs of feats?!? Really? And I just need a scroll of fly if I need fly for an encounter. I think I can squeeze in 375 gold somewhere. Who says I have 1 skill point per levels?
20 PB, 17 for str, 2 for dex, 5 for con (yeah I know kinda low), 0 for int, 0 for wis, -4 for cha. That means I have 2 skill points per level. 3 for human. +1 for favored class if I want. I can have 13 con to take some risk and get an additional skill point if I so desire. Once again, pretty BASIC stuff here. Seriously, this is new people can figure stuff out here. I am very surprised you seem completely unable to work this out on your own. Not like I'm doing some complex multi book stuff here. And like I said, this isn't even remotely optimized. This is fighter 101 here. If you can't meet fighter 101 in DPS, your a secondary DPS at best.
Feats I must have...
Weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon spec, power attack, iron will, improved iron will. 2 skill feats. That is it. I have 3 feats to do whatever I want with. 4 for human. What part of this is a basic...seriously basic fighter do you not understand?!?
Oh and telling somebody you have spell x and can swap out to spell y ACTUALLY explains in full what those spells do...right.... I can explain EVERYTHING about the fighter...including the expendable stuff in 10 min and a new player can get it. Enough so that when a PFS judge asked okay how do you do that, s/he can explain it back. I highly doubt that is the case with your build. The finer points of when to use spells is a whole other matter as well for learning to play the caster classes.
All you really proved is that you seem to think that fighter players are god awful dumb and can't do anything right and that you seem to play your game VERY un-tactically if you have NEVER seen this happen. What do real life special forces do again? Yeah they clear rooms and the search for what they need. They do not dilly about. PFS is once again different due to faction mission that people seem pretty greedy about. But then even in PFS, the groups that really know what they are doing buff up, clear rooms and then search for their stuff. The fact that you and your group could not grasp this rather BASIC TACTIC does not make this rather basic tactic any less valid. Oh and blasting works fine in the confines of your experience (which being PFS is not in line with the APs or the forum's "normal" game...seriously APL+4 is common).
All you really proved is that you seem to think that fighter players are god awful dumb and can't do anything right
Nope not all of them.
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For AgentJay, Full Post: Paizo BLASTER CASTER build:
Goal: Pile on the hurty-hurt with direct damage spells. You don't need battlefield control if the enemy is dead.
Level 1: Take Sorceror: Crossblooded Orc/Draconic, Human, take Varisian Tattoo (+1 Cl Evoc), take Trait: Magical Lineage (pick spell(important!), Reactionary (+2 Init, optional)
Then take Wizard/Evoker -Admixture Specialist for your remaining levels. Why Admixture? Because you can change the element of any of your blasting spells on the fly to get around elemental resistances/immunities.
If you want to superspecialize outside of Evoker, take Sin Magic, lose two schools (Conjuration/Abjuration), gain yet another spell slot per level of raw power.
Key Feats: Intensify Spell, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Perfection, Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization, Greater Spell Specialization.
End result: Crossblooded sorc orc/dragon bloodline 1, Wiz/19, Admixture Evocation specialist.
Note: Can use Sin Magic for more slots. Sorcerer level allows use of spell devices from denied schools (Conj/Abjuration).
Magical Lineage Trait allows Intensify for free on chosen spell.
Spell Perfection allows free Quicken at higher levels.
===============================================
Play Hints:
Take Burning Hands or Magic Missile as a Specialized Spell early. Burning Hands will deal more damage, Magic Missile has better long-term utility and keeps you out of danger. Every other level, you can change your specialized spell.
Add Greater Spell Specialization at level 7 or 9. Why? You can then memorize utility spells, and trash them for your blaster spell.
Change your specialized spell up to Scorching Ray or Fireball when you can, depending on campaign, typically at 5 or 7.
At level 12 or higher, change it to Fire Snake.
Use Admixture specializing to change the element on the fly.
Use Fire Snake for remainder levels. Why? High damage base and level 5 spell still leaves room for metamagic, esp Quicken.
Mechanics behind Choices: Orc blooded, Draconic: +1/die to all damage spells, +1/die to element of choice, retasked by Admixture = +2 dmg/die on blasting spells.
FEATS
Intensify Spell: Increases caster level damage cap +5 to apply to a specific spell. Burning hands goes up to 10d4+20. Magic Missile goes to 7d4+7. Fireball to 15d6, Fire Snake to 20d6+40.
Empower Spell: Increase dmg by 50%.
Quicken Spell: Hit enemy with two spells/rd.
Spell Specialization: +2 to caster level with a specific spell. Helps bring the damage earlier and faster.
Varisian Tattoo: +1 to Caster level with a specific school (Evo). This buys off your sorc level.
Greater Spell Specialization: Sacrifice spells to power your chosen blaster spell. Means you can memorize utility spells freely.
Spell Perfection: Doubles fixed feat bonuses, apply one metamagic for free. An Empowered/Intensified spell with Magical Lineage is still its original spell slot. SPell Penetration doubles to +4. Varisian Tattoo to +2. Spell Specialization to +4. Effectively, you've got +10 on Spell Resistance rolls, and are casting at 5 levels higher then your own.
Top End Damage: 30d6 +60 from Fire Snake, empowered, Intensified, average 165 dmg, save 1/2, level 5 slot.
Quicken for another hit, 5th level slot, 20d6 + 40dmg, avg 165.
= 330 blasting dmg in one round, save for 1/2. If you've a Rod of Maximize, you can lift this to 215 base damage.
Base level 5 spell slot is 20d6+40 dmg, 165 dmg.
BY LEVEL
At level 1, your Burning Hands should be 2d4+4 (avg 9)
At level 2, its unchanged.
At level 3, Spell Specialization kicks in. 5d4+10 (22.5). This tops it unless you Intensify it.
At 4th, 6d4+12 (27), Intensified BH.
At 5th, Intensified BH, 7d4+14 (31.5).
At 6th, you can shift Spec to Scorching Ray. 2x 4d6+8 (44). Your Fireball is 5d6+10 as well, or 7d6+14 if specced.
At 7th, 6d6+12 fireball, or 8d6+18 if spec. An Empowered, Intensified Burning Hands, if still the spec spell, is 13.5d4+27 (about 60).
8th - Empowered Scorching Ray, 2 x 6d6+12. E/I BH is 15d6+30 (74, max)
9th - Intensified, Specialized Fireball is 11d6+22 (51).
10th - Firesnake. E/Spec Fireball is 15d6+30 (74). Emp Scorching Rays are 3 x 6d6+12, or 18d6+36 (99 dmg). You can now Quicken a Burning Hands or Magic Missile as kicker damage in a round, although you've few slots.
12th - E/I/Spec Fireball is 21d6+42 (115) damage. You can now Quicken a 12d6+24 Scorching Ray.
14th level - A Specialized Firesnake now exceeds/equals an intensified Fireball. Fireball caps at 22.5d6+ 45 (123~) damage. An Empowered Firesnake is 24d6+48 (132) damage. You can now Quicken a 10d6+20 Fireball. Intensified, Empowered Scorching Ray tops out at 24d6+48 (132 dmg)
15th level - Spell Perfection. You can now add a Meta for Free. This will be Quicken or Empower. Intensified might be free if Magical Lineage applies to it. Caster level buffs for spec spell exceed +5, so top out at 20d6 dmg at 15th level. You will miss Spell Resistance rolls against CR appropriate enemies on a 1.
Assuming Firesnake, you can now cast a Quickened Intensified Firesnake for 20d6+40 (110) damage out of a 5th level slot, and an Empowered Firesnake out of the same slot for 30d6+60 (165) damage. Using a 7th level slot, you can Empower both.
16th+ - Damage remains the same, higher level spell slots are open for use of other Metas or control spells.
Conceivably you could use Disintegrate to get a higher damage total, but the delay isn't worth it, and you'd lose the Varisian tattoo bonus.
If your DM allows you Twin Spell from 3.5, you can very, very easily clock in at 495 raw dmg/round. IF he allows Arcane Thesis, god help your enemies.
==+Aelryinth
4k Bracers of the Falcon
These have been errata'd to 18k I believe, putting them on a par with Bracers of Archery.
Just so you know. They were one of the most underpriced magic items of all time.
==Aelryinth
I was going to leave this alone, but I just can't. It's a problem I'm working on, just failing right now
Wow...just wow. Your fighters make a habit of not taking iron will and improved iron will with their gobs of feats?!?
I want to show you what you're doing here and really try to drive it home. You're acting like my not taking into account Iron Will and Improved Iron Will is the huge deal and I must be a colossal idiot. Let's look at the reality of the situation: Your will save is 5 not 3 5. OH MY GOODNESS I WAS SO FAR OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Knowing your STR was 20, I pegged your Will save within 2. Yeah I must be an idiot. But seriously, no my fighters never take Iron Will, mostly because I'd never play a fighter since they're pretty useless unless all the enemies stand right in front of them the whole time, and after the fight is over, they're even more useless.
Really? And I just need a scroll of fly if I need fly for an encounter. I think I can squeeze in 375 gold somewhere. Who says I have 1 skill point per levels?
And we're back to theory crafting. In Theory you could have a scroll of fly. In reality you probably used on the a previous encounter, and if not, well now we're up to 6 rounds of the Wizard blasting before the fighter does anything.
20 PB, 17 for str, 2 for dex, 5 for con (yeah I know kinda low), 0 for int, 0 for wis, -4 for cha. That means I have 2 skill points per level. 3 for human. +1 for favored class if I want.
Right 2 points per level, and 1 of them is used on UMD. 2-1=1, and yeah I know. I called your stats exactly from your 20 STR, but all of that is irrelevant, since you can't take fly until you have a reliable way of doing it. Once you do (and I'm pretty sure potions and scrolls don't count), you can't dump a bunch of skill points into it to bring it up quickly. So you have no fly skill... Oh yeah but I don't know how to play.
I can have 13 con to take some risk and get an additional skill point if I so desire. Once again, pretty BASIC stuff here. Seriously, this is new people can figure stuff out here. I am very surprised you seem completely unable to work this out on your own. Not like I'm doing some complex multi book stuff here. And like I said, this isn't even remotely optimized. This is fighter 101 here. If you can't meet fighter 101 in DPS, your a secondary DPS at best.
Now you're back to trying to sound like you're smarter than me, but at this point I don't even think you know what you're talking about. Regardless, your way to "win" the argument is to change your build based on what I say. If I say you have no skill points, you say you drop CON and use favored class, if I say you have low HP you raise CON back up and say favored class is HP. Why don't you stick with a REAL build so we can actually speak intelligently about it.
Oh and telling somebody you have spell x and can swap out to spell y ACTUALLY explains in full what those spells do...right.... I can explain EVERYTHING about the fighter...including the expendable stuff in 10 min and a new player can get it. Enough so that when a PFS judge asked okay how do you do that, s/he can explain it back. I highly doubt that is the case with your build. The finer points of when to use spells is a whole other matter as well for learning to play the caster classes.
If you can't figure out what a fireball does, I'm not sure I can help you.
All you really proved is that you seem to think that fighter players are god awful dumb and can't do anything right and that you seem to play your game VERY un-tactically if you have NEVER seen this happen. What do real life special forces do again? Yeah they clear rooms and the search for what they need. They do not dilly about.
Right, right real life special forces, because we all know that if they don't find the Iron Key in Dragon Lair, they'll never make it to the Al'Queda hideout. And once they get there, they're always on the look out for Magic Rune traps. Why just the other day, my Seal buddy was telling me about the Hold Person trap he walked into because the rogue in his party missed it... o_O
PFS is once again different due to faction mission that people seem pretty greedy about. But then even in PFS, the groups that really know what they are doing buff up, clear rooms and then search for their stuff. The fact that you and your group could not grasp this rather BASIC TACTIC does not make this rather basic tactic any less valid. Oh and blasting works fine in the confines of your experience (which being PFS is not in line with the APs or the forum's "normal" game...seriously APL+4 is common).
You seem to think I only play PFS, I assure you that isn't the case. I've been playing RPG's for over 20 years, have you even been alive that long? Not only that, but I've spent 20 years in the military, that means I've played RPG's in general and Pathfinder specifically all over the country, from San Diego, to New York, 3 different cities in Florida, and 2 different cities in Alabama. On an average weekend I play in at least 2 different cities. That's not counting the home games on Wednesday, Kingmaker on Tuesday, and Jade Regent every other Saturday. Paizo says APL +3 is EPIC. I didn't come up with that Paizo did. Even if APL +4 are as common as you say, I've already proven that the Wizard can handle those situations far better than your fighter.
I'll say again, I'm not the one that turned this into a Fighter vs. Wizard, you did that. My point was, and still is Wizards are viable as blasters.
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So...your gonna completely ignore the ability to re-roll your will save then....because you know, that IS A BIG DEAL. The fact that you seem to utterly be willing to ignore what is considered two must have feats for fighters means yes, you have no idea how to build or play them. You just assume that anyone who does so must be an idiot from your comments like how useless they are. So yes, your assumption is that a badly made, badly played fighter makes a blaster wizard seem viable...which is very true. Badly made and played DPR will make that fireball seem awfully good.
So...your special forces and room clearing is something you can't grasp?!? REALLY?!? I'm gonna have to call you out of that one. Either your lying about being special forces or you really are bad at this game. I admit that you don't have buff timers in real life, but you DO have timers in an any engagement as so long after you start, bad things will start to happen as the information of your egress gets to the bad guys. You do not clear one room, spend 5 min searching that room for stuff before moving to the next room. And while there may not be any hold person traps, real life traps when you clear a building is VERY MUCH A THREAT. Seriously the fact that your making fun of this makes me doubt your special forces even more. No special forces guy I know would make fun of traps so lightly...and if you had said that near anyone from EOD you'd have your face punched in. The fact that your joking about traps like that is exceedingly offensive.
If the AP is being run as written, +4 APL really should not have surprised you at all (hell statistically you should run into a few CR 5 random encounters before level 2 in kingmaker)...that makes me think they are not. There is a difference between my blaster works because I'm getting softballed and my blaster works. Oh and kingmaker is considered one of the easiest APs...and one where blasting works okayish because of that. But then again crafting pretty much breaks that AP into bits. So you can use all your feats to make a blaster to do the fighter's job...just not as well...or you can take craft feats and increase the power of everyone into easy mode. Yes I realize easy mode isn't fun. Yes I realize that is a good reason to not get crafting in this AP and do a blaster instead. That does not negate that spending the feats to do blasting is mechanically metric tons worse then crafting. And that is what we are ultimately comparing is it not? Usefulness of choices mechanically? In fact in most APs, crafting to basically double everyone's wealth kinda trumps a lot of things. There are very few time elements in most AP...and they generally have gobs of down time. So unless your definition of viable is that I can spend all my feats to do the job of another class...just not as well is viable...then yes that is viable. But that is not the same definition I have of the word.
Wow, Schrödinger's Wizard vs. Fighter strikes again! I love how these discussions always turn to a child's game of "I shot you! No you didn't!".
So...your special forces and room clearing is something you can't grasp?!? REALLY?!? I'm gonna have to call you out of that one. Either your lying about being special forces or you really are bad at this game.
I don't know if you're being diliberately obtuse or if you really don't comprehend what you read. I'm done here, but I do want to clear up that I never said I was special forces.
Wow, Schrödinger's Wizard vs. Fighter strikes again! I love how these discussions always turn to a child's game of "I shot you! No you didn't!".
Just to be clear, my wizard has been posted and not changed at all. So more accurately it would Schrödinger Fighter vs. REAL Wizard.
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So...your special forces and room clearing is something you can't grasp?!? REALLY?!? I'm gonna have to call you out of that one. Either your lying about being special forces or you really are bad at this game.I don't know if you're being diliberately obtuse or if you really don't comprehend what you read. I'm done here, but I do want to clear up that I never said I was special forces.
Sorry is this bit made me think you were claiming to be SEAL...
Right, right real life special forces, because we all know that if they don't find the Iron Key in Dragon Lair, they'll never make it to the Al'Queda hideout. And once they get there, they're always on the look out for Magic Rune traps. Why just the other day, my Seal buddy was telling me about the Hold Person trap he walked into because the rogue in his party missed it... o_O
A jackaninnie SEAL...but that still that part is where I infered your claim of being special forces. None the less, the fact is, your still assuming that the fighter doesn't work based on REALLY bad play. If your not willing to accept that people can actually play fighters better then you and build then up better then you (because lets face it, you don't even know fighter 101 here) and that changes how the game works...well I am not the one being obtuse. And if it's just a case of you having fun, that is one thing...you are just giving out really bad advice based on a flawed set of assumptions. Now who's advice is better will depend on if the person who needs advice is in a group more like my assumptions...or yours of course. But honestly assume stupid always annoyed the hell out of me (despite the fact that it's true a lot of times...sadly...).
Wow, Schrödinger's Wizard vs. Fighter strikes again! I love how these discussions always turn to a child's game of "I shot you! No you didn't!".Just to be clear, my wizard has been posted and not changed at all. So more accurately it would Schrödinger Fighter vs. REAL Wizard.
Dude, the fighter I mentioned is fighter 101...you don't need a full on build. It's a framework of the basic THF fighter. Do you even remotely understand that? It allows room for some customization, either more skills, more damage, more health or whatever. The damage it can do and the ability to UMD is what is important here. I did not need your full build either as unlike you, I understood what you were doing from your framework. It's neat. It eats up all your feats. For a it's fun to roll dice factor, it can be fun to play. If you have fun, then by all means have fun...but that is not the same as it being a good idea. I do plenty of bad stuff (I play EKs for crying out loud) that I know is a bad idea...but it's still fun.
my PFS blaster
Human
traint magical knack
wayang spell caster fireball
level 1 wiz admxiture
spell focus(free for scribe scroll)
spell specializattion burning hands
mage tattoo evo
Level 1 spell BH 4d4+1 ave 11
level 2 sorcere dual blood orc/white drag
level 2 burning hands 5d4+11 cold ave 23.5
level 3 dual cursed oracle waves (later get a ring of revelation to get misfortune)
feat rhime or intensify
level 3 burning hands 5d4+11 failed save slows 23.5
levle 4 buying a rod of whatever feat I did nto take, most likely insenfiy another wizard elvel 7d4+14 failed save slows 31.5
level 5 8d4+16 entagles and failed save slows
heighten spell
level 6 is sad you dump SS for fireball anyhow you cna nto cast it
then next big jump is level 7 when you get the super slowing cold fireball 10d6+22 that slow and entangles that you can cast spontaneously. Yay status effects
Preferred Spell fireball
His name is Why-knee Face
... your still assuming that the fighter doesn't work based on REALLY bad play. If your not willing to accept that people can actually play fighters better then you and build then up better then you (because lets face it, you don't even know fighter 101 here) and that changes how the game works.
And right here is our disconnect. See you've stopped actually reading my posts. You've completely forgotten what I'm even talking about. In your desire to attack me and put me down, and try prove you're smarter than me, you've completely forgotten what the conversation is even about. I didn't come here saying Fighters suck, I never even said a Fighter can't out DPR a Wizard. All I've ever said is that Wizards can blast. You think that's wrong? Show me a post from anyone other than you that says Wizards aren't one of, if not THE strongest class in the game. Do you get that? EVERYONE but you, says wizards are probably the strongest class in the game.
So let's say we're in a situation where the fighter will be really effective, what can the Wizard do instead of blasting when he's not needed? ANYTHING HE WANTS. He could do Battle Field Control, he could buff, he could Summon some creatures that might be more effective. That's the thing you don't understand. If you looked at my wizard's character sheet, you'd think I listened to Treantmonk. My spells are all utility, control and buffs. I can switch them out to blasting spells on the fly. You think you can customize your fighter because you get a few extra feats? I can completely change my whole concept EVERY DAY.
You've said yourself a fighter isn't complicated. Stop trying to say I don't understand it. I got your entire build from you saying you had a 20 STR. That's all I needed and I completely understood your build. You change your build mid sentence and then wonder why I'm confused. You pretend a fighter is always going to have all their buffs up at all times, and always going to have the exact potion, or scroll available at all times and it's always going to work. Anyone who has played the game knows that only works when you're arguing on the forums. In an actual game, it will rarely work that way. The wizard I presented doesn't need to waste time buffing, he doesn't need a stitch of clothing or magical gear. He gets up, spends 15min-1 hour preparing, and he's set for an entire day.
Bad advice? You're the only one that thinks that, and you think that because you don't really read my posts. I list 4 or 5 things in a post to prove my point, you say a fighter will take a feat that really only helps very little (like improved iron will changing your chance of success from 25% to 35%), and you think that completely negates the other 3 or 4 items. Look at that list of monsters you provide again. A Wizard will be more effective in every case. You have a 5 WILL save that re-roll is only useable 1x per day. Your Reflex is 4 or maybe 6 if you took those feats too, I don't think I'm the one giving bad advice here.
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... your still assuming that the fighter doesn't work based on REALLY bad play. If your not willing to accept that people can actually play fighters better then you and build then up better then you (because lets face it, you don't even know fighter 101 here) and that changes how the game works.And right here is our disconnect. See you've stopped actually reading my posts. You've completely forgotten what I'm even talking about. In your desire to attack me and put me down, and try prove you're smarter than me, you've completely forgotten what the conversation is even about. I didn't come here saying Fighters suck, I never even said a Fighter can't out DPR a Wizard. All I've ever said is that Wizards can blast. You think that's wrong? Show me a post from anyone other than you that says Wizards aren't one of, if not THE strongest class in the game. Do you get that? EVERYONE but you, says wizards are probably the strongest class in the game.
So let's say we're in a situation where the fighter will be really effective, what can the Wizard do instead of blasting when he's not needed? ANYTHING HE WANTS. He could do Battle Field Control, he could buff, he could Summon some creatures that might be more effective. That's the thing you don't understand. If you looked at my wizard's character sheet, you'd think I listened to Treantmonk. My spells are all utility, control and buffs. I can switch them out to blasting spells on the fly. You think you can customize your fighter because you get a few extra feats? I can completely change my whole concept EVERY DAY.
You've said yourself a fighter isn't complicated. Stop trying to say I don't understand it. I got your entire build from you saying you had a 20 STR. That's all I needed and I completely understood your build. You change your build mid sentence and then wonder why I'm confused. You pretend a fighter is always going to have all their buffs up at all times, and always going to have the exact potion, or scroll available at all...
So...still don't understand the BASIC concept of using ALL your feats to pull of the trick of doing LESS damage then what your damage dealer do in your group does is sub-optimal at BEST? My fighter isn't there to be better then your wizard...wizard will be better...even one as badly made as your blaster (honestly finlander's cold status effect blaster is better if you REALLY must have a blasty wizard). My job as the damage dealer is to...well DEAL DAMAGE. If you want to be a viable damage dealer for the group, you need to do better then a what the damage dealer in your group can currently do. If the damage dealers in your group does not know to have a fly effect by level 10 or have UMD (which can be avoided if you have an alchemist with infusions honestly) for self only buffs, use tactics or the slew of other bad play options you gave, then yes your blaster is viable in THAT GROUP. In any of my none PFS groups (even the casuals), your build is most certainly NOT a viable damage dealer (okay I will admit that your build in shackles would be pretty dang good...but like I said, evocation is a top tier school in that AP...and you don't even have to do all the shenanigans to make it good). In PFS, it is viable...mostly...but like I said, PFS is pretty different beast compared to home games or APs. Seriously, if you can not understand that if you want to be viable damage dealer for the group you need to do more then what the groups damage dealer is capable of...I'm not sure what to say to you anymore.
Oh and I did not change my build mid sentence. If you can't figure out that fighters take iron will and improved iron will as a part of fighter 101 build...not sure what I can tell you. I did not mention this at the start because I assumed you were mechanically savvy enough to know this already. Obviously I was SEVERLY mistaken on this assumption. Sorry, I thought I was talking to somebody who actually knew what they were doing and didn't need to spoon feed you 101 information...my bad. So yeah, I didn't post the WHOLE build, but don't even go there and accuse me of changing the build (and it wasn't even a build...just a frame work of basic fighter...seriously you still can't get this straight?!?).
And you still haven't learned how to read, so I guess we're at an impasse.
So if the monsters are smart enough to not just stand next to the death blender fighter, what's his source of pounce? Don't worry, I haven't taken Fighters 101, but it should be a pretty fast question to answer anyway.
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Well step up and improved step up tends to remove most abilities to move away after you reach them. Trip works well to keep them from moving away as well. As does just having better reach (remember, monsterous humanoid 3 gets you huge size...that is 15 foor reach with normal weapons and 30 with reach). Otherwise, yeah monsters who wanna play keepaway can be somewhat of a pain...and better left to the archer...who is honestly the superior DPS build for fighters. Or you can be a level 10 barbarian if you feel you absolutely need pounce. Sure there are other ways, but don't have times to dig deep into the rules right now.
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