For me, the very best crafting system I have ever found in a game was that used by Dragonrealms, a pay to play text-based MUD.
As an example of the depth of complexity there was the skill of fletching bows and arrows. First there were different kinds of wood, like pine, maple, elm, oak, teak, etc. which were increasingly challenging to both forage up a limb (longbow) or stick (shortbow) and successfully shape that into a longbow, shortbow or arrow shaft. The aspiring fletcher would have to purchase a fletching bag to contain his fletching tools, such as a knife and a 'wood shaper' like a wood plane, and hold his arrowheads flights, and fletching glue. Having foraged a limb of wood he has a hope of working successfully the fletcher uses the command 'shape longbow from limb' or 'shape shortbow from stick'. You gain prompts telling you which tool to use at each step. There is always a chance that you'll slip, and ruin the piece. Advanced skill relative to the material you are working increase the likelihood of success/reduce the chances of a misstep. Arrows are crafted similarly, and arrowheads as well, using different commands.
All the crafting skills are complex, deep, and challenging.
To you, which game provided the best crafting, and why do you think so?
I'd love to see that level of depth in the crafting system. My personal favorite crafting systems have been in SWG and Vanguard...and I like both for different reasons.
SWG was my first experience crafting so I may be slightly fickle, but it was a sound system where the quality of the materials had a direct impact on the quality of the item. You could also make large batches of items with the same stat's if you had enough material...more of a factory-esque approach.
Vanguard was more about making individual items. It was more in line with crafting being detailed and specific..not mass produced.
I think a system more like Vanguard would be a better fit in PFO. Attention to detail at an individual item level.
My personal favorite was SWG. Not only was the crafting excellent, but the individualized vending made it even better. I loved the fact that certain crafters were able to produce items with nearly unique attributes.
That last point is something that I really hope GW does for PFO. That might actually be the basis for their idea to have items incorporate any combination of 6 key words.
I'm also hoping that there is a certain amount of experimentation, especially with herbalism and alchemy. I believe that Oblivion of Elder Scrolls introduced that, and did an excellent job of it.
Most of all, I hope that GW elevates crafting, exploration and discover to be an almost coequal aspect of the game, along with PvP and Settelment management.
That might actually be the basis for their idea to have items incorporate any combination of 6 key words.
What makes you think it's limited to 6 keywords? I don't recall this limitation.
A fairly potent mid-level longsword still does 40 Base Damage, but has the keywords "Slashing," "Sharp," "Razored," "Silver," and "Masterwork." A starter set of heavy armor has 27 Physical damage resistance and the "Heavy" Keyword. A mid-level set still has the same resistance, but has the "Heavy," "Dense," "Distributed," "Military," and "Masterwork" keywords.*
That describes "mid-level" items with 5 keywords. It seems unlikely that Tier 3 items will only have one additional keyword.
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Something to keep in mind is that, as the system had been described so far, our characters will not be wielding a wood plane and glue. We'll be directing a team of fletchers in a fletching structure in a settlement. I could see exceptions for beginning crafters, who need to learn the trade before they can supervise it, or for field crafting, like cooking over a campfire or making temporary repairs to damaged armor. Overall, though, the crafting system GW has described is more supervision, and less hands-on production.
I loved the crafting system in SWG, and I see several aspects of it being relevant in PFO.
For resource gathering, SWG had your character place a machine (drilling rig, solar panel, etc.) at the resource site. PFO will replace that machine with a crew of NPC gatherers.
In SWG, resource sites had areas of higher or lower concentration, and characters used hand-held scanners to find the best available spot. In PFO, those scanners could be replaced by specialized skills like Knowledge (Forestry) and Profession (Surveyor). When the highest-producing spots in an area were taken, late-arriving gatherers had to decide whether to settle for a less-desirable spot, or go find the center of another concentration of resources.
Resource sites also decayed over time. Today's valuable ore vein might be played out next week, requiring another round of surveying.
SWG materials varied, even within the same "tier". One mineral might have had better hardness, while another had better ductility. Crafting a given item involved finding the materials that had the best scores in the quality that your product required. Armor, for instance, might have required a metal with good hardness, while weapons required metals with high elasticity.
The combination of several different raw materials with different characteristics lead to a high degree of variety in the finished products. Every breast plate was not alike. One might provide better protection, while another allowed the wearer more flexibility, reducing the stamina penalty for maneuvers while wearing it.
EVE Online also has valuable things to offer for a "batch production" crafting system. Blueprint originals are very valuable, because they can be used to make infinite batches of product, or copied. Blueprint copies are more fragile. They can only be used so many times, creating a guaranteed market for the owners of blueprint originals.
Finally, Everquest 2 has a very involving crafting system, almost a mini-game in itself. In most MMOs, you push a button to start making something, them just wait until it's finished. In EQ2, events occur during production, and crafters must respond to them. If your potion is turning acidic, and you fail to neutralize it, you may lose your chance to produce a full batch, or create an inferior potion (the inferior results were eventually downgraded to reduced yield). The PFO equivalent might be protecting gatherers from wild animals, or negotiating with crafters to avoid a guild strike.
Most crafting systems are pretty much the same. Ultima Online, Conan, WoW, SWTOR, LotRO, all used low level materials for lower level crafts. (I didn't play SWG so won't comment on it). EVE does do something I think is important for harvesters...EVE used a lot of low level materials in some pretty high level end product crafting items, and some intermediate crafting ingredients. That helps keep low level harvesters (read noobs and those who dislike the dangerous areas or PvP areas).
If PFO keeps the system described so far the low level materials will be irrelevant after a few "levels", which would be unfortunate. I remain hopeful all levels of materials will somehow stay relevant throughout the life of the game instead of just being farmed and refined, only to be vendored, as those low level mats have no other value.
@Hardin
How does EVE avoid the problem of new crafters having to compete against veteran crafters to purchase the low-grade material? It seems to me that gatherers would be setting their prices in a range that would price it out of reach of the new characters since people who've been playing longer (and thus have more money) need it too.
How does EVE avoid the problem of new crafters having to compete against veteran crafters to purchase the low-grade material?
Supply is high enough.
@Hardin
How does EVE avoid the problem of new crafters having to compete against veteran crafters to purchase the low-grade material? It seems to me that gatherers would be setting their prices in a range that would price it out of reach of the new characters since people who've been playing longer (and thus have more money) need it too.
Competition. Any cartel that tried price-fixing would have to control a large fraction of the total production, or the people willing to undercut them make all of the ISK.
Such a feat has been accomplished in the past.
The market price ebbs and flows with the supply and demand of the materials. A veteran crafter doesn't have any more control over that market than the new crafter. Gatherers and refiners compete with each other on the market as much as any other merchant, so the price of materials is fairly self-dictating according to supply and demand. Someone selling their 10m units of tritanium for 5isk each will invariably be undercut by someone selling their 100k units at 4.99isk, spawning a new round of .01isk wars. There's a whole commodities market there where people buy and sell high volume, low price goods like minerals according to the natural market fluctuations.
Social connections can be made and suppliers secured to ensure a steady flow of material, often at a small discount against the market. Usually a veteran has an advantage here, but an enterprising newbie can wheel and deal as well.
With EVE there's an additional aspect to crafting, the Material and Production Efficiency ratings of the blueprints. For Tech 1 (entry level) items, these aspects can be improved on through research. Material Efficiency reduces the amount of waste during the manufacturing process, Production Efficiency reduces the run time. Veteran crafters will have near-perfect blueprints and skills, allowing them to either eek out a higher return, or undercut new competitors. With the vast size of EVE, though, it's nearly impossible to completely squeeze someone out. A new crafter can also purchase high-efficiency blueprints off of contracts (auction house), effectively trading ISK for time.
The biggest advantage a veteran has, though is skill level. A new crafter can specialize in their training and catch up there very quickly though. Tech2 and Tech3 items all use the base materials, in addition to more specialized materials, so there is always a high demand for low-level, basic material.
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One cartel did control pricing of a relatively high-level resource for a while. They killed every non-cartel gatherer they found, and tried to take control of as many as possible of the solar systems containing that resource. Eventually, I think relations among the cartel members broke down, and rank and file pilots got bored with hunting non-cartel gatherers. While it lasted, though, it had a serious effect on the price for that resource.
If PFO keeps the system described so far the low level materials will be irrelevant after a few "levels", which would be unfortunate. I remain hopeful all levels of materials will somehow stay relevant throughout the life of the game instead of just being farmed and refined, only to be vendored, as those low level mats have no other value.
What if Settlement and structures required the Basic materials but in large quantities, and combination of basic materials to mid-grade materials with larger proportions of the basic materials. Then they can reserve the high-end and rare materials for high end gear, artifacts and special type things.
Something to keep in mind is that, as the system had been described so far, our characters will not be wielding a wood plane and glue. We'll be directing a team of fletchers in a fletching structure in a settlement.
I liked the system in Pirates of the Burning Sea, not as a crafting system but as an economy system. This was based on a finite number of ports with different resources and belonging to different factions - along with the obvious dangers of transporting goods (it's a pirate game after all) - and ships being permanently lost in battle.
Raw materials and recipes were generic, but caps on how many industries you could own and how many ports you could operate in meant that noone could do it all, and high-end ships needed a bit of everything: hull and masts, sails, cannons and huge anchors, rations (hardtack and rum), and even a bit of granite for ballast. So, to run an efficient shipyard you would need 7-8 players operating in at least 3 different places (and if one of those places were closed down due to pvp war...).
What if Settlement and structures required the Basic materials but in large quantities, and combination of basic materials to mid-grade materials with larger proportions of the basic materials. Then they can reserve the high-end and rare materials for high end gear, artifacts and special type things.
If PFO keeps the system described so far the low level materials will be irrelevant after a few "levels", which would be unfortunate. I remain hopeful all levels of materials will somehow stay relevant throughout the life of the game instead of just being farmed and refined, only to be vendored, as those low level mats have no other value.
Agree. For large scale projects quantity > quality.
When considered with the harvesting system, Saga of Ryzom.
In LotRO, WoW, and GW2 to name a few, the crafting systems use low level materials for low level crafts, mid level materials for mid level crafts (not using the low level materials again), and high level materials and many rares and dungeon drops in the highest level crafts. While I understand the progression system, it leaves a glut of low level materials in the AH. What I liked about EVE was if all you wanted to do was mine Veldspar (the lowest level ore, refinable into Tritanium, the most common mineral) you still had a market fir it. The price was low, but mining it in volume was easy, safe, and noob friendly. It kept demand to Veldspar and Tritanium relatively high, and didn't leave millions of units of surplus unsold (as long as it was competitively priced).
The current items level for raw materials in PFO seems to go the LotRO, WoW, and GW2 route. I would like to see a way for the higher skill level refiners and crafters make use of low level materials so the market for low level materials and components stay viable.
In lotro only cooks use mats from low level tiers in some higher tiers. I hope in pfo new players can be vital suppliers for high levelled crafters
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Humm, Everquest 2 has the best crafting experience in my opinion. The mini game aspect of crafting keeps you involved while the results of crafting are very useful. Add in the ability to research special patterns plus unique crafting quests /rewards makes for a pretty deep crafting experience in Everquest 2.
So I played EQ, EQ2, WoW, SWG, AoC, Warhammer AoR, Tabula Rasa, The Secret World, and dabbled in a few others.
EQ2 hands down by far and away was the best system, effectively a game within a game, and an interesting one at that.
My favorite has to be SWTOR (with a nod to LOTRO). Both of these have enough complexity to keep things interesting but are simple enough to get the hang of things quickly. I really like SWTOR in that you can be self-sufficient in your production crew skill... unlike LOTRO, WOW, etc. with require either raw or produced materials from other craft skills in order to produce usable items. In SWTOR, it is easy to pick your triad of crew skills and be able to produce whatever you wanted/needed without resorting to paying GTN prices. Sometimes you get the wrong class 3 gem from Treasure Hunting, but you could easily sell it on the GTN and use the funds to buy it on the GTN or to fund more Treasure Hunting.
It irritated me to no end in WOW when I was trying to level leatherworking and needed a metal buckle or gem of some sort, which means I either needed to know (or have as an alt) a blacksmith or jeweler who would help me out in a trade or pay ridiculous auction house prices just to make a relatively low level item. LOTRO has some of this as well, but it doesn't seem as bad as WOW. I had several toons on LOTRO, so it didn't seem so bad. But on WOW I just gathered mats while I leveled and relied on instances for gear. Only once did I have a maxed out craft skill on WOW, and it was a bear to grind.
I know it is more realistic to have the gathering/crafting skills interact, but given the nature of MMOs I just don't care for it. My time is limited, I play to relax and enjoy the time on the MMO leveling, and overly complex craft systems just don't do it for me. But I know I am not the typical MMO player and not the demographic game companies cater to.