Can anyone quickly C&P what PF has to say about this if anything? About having to describe social situations instead of just rolling it?
C&P?
Though does it really matter? I mean if a group just wants to Roll in social situration they can...I respect it. I might not like doing that myself...but to each their own.
C&P means copy and paste.
Ah...I'll see if I can find it later.
And I don't think I'd return to a game like that myself.
I don't think...I know I would not return to a game like that.
Personaly I hope it gives both options. That kinda more supports the idea I want from a RPG...and that is to make it your own.
That is what we have GMs for, after all. Although rolling for all interactions is a valid playstyle. Not one I want to deal with, but valid nonetheless.
We often go this path - specifically when the guy playing the 'social skills' character isnt very comfortable roleplaying. Our general approach is to let it be player driven - if the PC wants to explain his point of view and then roll some dice, we do that. If the PC wants to say "I diplome the king" we do that.
.I dont see any fun in forcing someone who isnt into roleplaying to try and make a flowery speech, but dont want to discourage them from giving it a go when they're comfortable.
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Very likely.
Though the main reason for the post was to address black raven's point about NPC masterminds also bypassing the rules.
I get your point, Snorter ;-)
Note however that anyone using Diplomacy as a blunt tool should get a HUGE penalty due to bad roleplay and broken verisimilitude.
Which IMO is what was missing in your example of GM using Diplomacy with the PC (which cannot be done RAW BTW). Even if he rolled 55, the GM did such a bad job of his diplomacy speech that he has a -30 roleplaying penalty, in addition to the -20 circumstance penalty (the whole "killed my father" thing), ending up in a net result of 5 which just will not ever convince anyone of anything.
The Stormwind Fallacy is there to explain people like me. People who are BOTH dedicated roleplayers and skillful optimizers. For me, the optimization facilitates the roleplay. If my character is incapable of doing what I want it to do, or is likely to get screwed by iterative probability, then that hampers my roleplaying because either the character isn't who I envisioned (thus breaking my immersion and ripping me out of the role) or s/he is going to die before their story unfolds and I'd be forced to abandon this character I lovingly and painstakingly crafted and start all over again before I was ready.
Perfectly expressed. Congratulations, you win one internet.
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If a DM is thinking of running a social intrigue game or dungeon crawl game, isn't he going to choose a system that's geared torward those most appropriately?
I agree with you completely here. But that is why having mechanics to handle social/RP situration can just take the Role out of it and replace it with Roll. This is why I am leery of systems with robust mechanics dealing with Social siturations.
Maybe it's time to remove social skills from future RPGs?
If the players are going to insist their PCs have verbal Rohypnol, while refusing to comply with counter-skills by NPCs?
If players are dumping Charisma as low as they can go, then expecting the GM to give them the benefit of their real-world charm*?
We have to include stats for physical abilities, since (leaving aside any stereotypes that many RPGers are sedentary, uncoordinated dorks), we don't want players 'demonstrating' their ability to take a punch, or how they would swing a greataxe, in the confined space of our game room. Demonstrating that you can bluff a guard doesn't result in broken windows or noses...
If we're going to make great claims (which people have been doing for decades, now) about RPGs being an amazing social activity, that encourages empathy for other points of view, increases self-confidence, trains public-speaking, yaddayaddayadda**...then why are we still prepared to accept monosyllabic mumblings?
Why are we willing to accept "Hur hur. I roll Charisma, to get her knickers off, heurgh, heurgh", from Creepy Dan, the Wench-F**ker Man?
"Oh, but then players who are shy or awkward (or creepy f@+!ers) won't be able to accurately portray charismatic PCs..."
Well, tough titty for them. Isn't it time they got their s$+! together?
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There reaches a point where optimization CAN hinder roleplaying.
If I'm going to Optimize a wizard, one of the most common methods is min-maxing.
How many people are going to play an average intelligence wizard? thats not optimizing and one roleplaying option thrown out.
Depends if Wizard is going to be the sole focus, or if it's a dip class. An optimized Mystic Theurge would tend toward lower Int and Wis than either a sole class Cleric or Wizard.
Similarly, a PC designed around the 'warrior wizard' gish archetype, whose spells are intended to be mostly buffs and utility. Any offensive spells he picks will be rays and touch attacks, which don't allow saving throws. He doesn't need the 'punch' to his DCs, that a starting Int 20 would give him.
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I've always found 'fallacy' to be a really strong word with this Stormwind stuff. For example, there is one way that rollplaying and roleplaying always do conflict - time spent. Imagine two scenarios:
A) PC wants lower prices from a shopkeeper.
and
B) PC squares off against a much weaker foe.
Rollplaying A) Diplomacy check.
Roleplaying A) Interactive dialogue, quests, and relationship building.
Rollplaying B) Protracted combat with tactical elements highlighting feat selection and character design.
Roleplaying B) Handwaived combat.
As you can see, one of these options takes a lot more time than the other, in each case. While 'Roleplaying B' may not be typical, it has seen a lot of use at my table when evil PCs want to do non-adventure-related things. "While the Ninja effortlessly kills each of the sleeping soldiers, what are the rest of you doing?"
Going back to the system at hand, being Pathfinder, it is noteworthy that it even has a Diplomacy skill. It is also noteworthy that their newest book seems to be making downtime more systematic, providing faster resolution.
IME it shifts it towards rollplay, but that's just based on the description of it, and the assumption that the remaining table time will be spent on rollplay things.
There reaches a point where optimization CAN hinder roleplaying.
If I'm going to Optimize a wizard, one of the most common methods is min-maxing.
How many people are going to play an average intelligence wizard? thats not optimizing and one roleplaying option thrown out.
In the universe of Pathfinder, magical ability is directly tied to to your mental prowess, so a wizard would not be a wizard, in this game, with low or average intelligence. "Wizard" means a lot of different things in different stories. One can roleplay a spell-user with average intelligence in a lot of different ways and can call himself wizard in any of them if he wants. Class names rarely have a place in actual roleplaying anyhow.