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Speaking of Bards, I'd like there to be multiple types of performance skills in game. Flutes, Lutes, Harps, Horns, Singing, Drums, Juggling, Dance, Oratory, Acrobatics, the more the better.
Violins, if I get gipped out of violins again Im going to...well thats secret but no one will be happy. :)
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I'm sorry for opening this can... branch of discussion by one remark. :) And this is really big theme. I must not build another wall of text (that's autohypnosis).
But all things goes down to believability and inconsistencies. Nature magic grant their adepts different set of powers. You can design primitive shaman out of druid archetypes. Clerics are different story. I hardly can imagine driad worshipping some other entity - but they cast spells as 7th druid. I can't imagine religious conflict between 2 druids of same alignment, worshippers of different deities. Summoning, at last - druids can't call divine outsiders, but easily can summon some beasts from realm of fey.
But all this is just my opinion and I can be very opinionate guy :)
Structure prevents inconsistancy and makes the foundation of believability.
Nature magic isn't different, its the choices of the casters tradition. Would a druid really summon some demonic creature not native to the plane, when there are plenty of native creatures to handle the problem? Both clerics and druids use nature magic, but the focus is different. Druids focus on the material plane, basically local nature. Clerics focus on celestial and interplaner nature, basically nonlocal nature and the foundation that nature is built on.
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... if I get [racial slur term for cheated] out of violins again...Please don't use racial slurs on this board. I know it's probably not intentional, but it is an offensive term.
Since when is that a racial slur? Can you at least tell me who is supposedly referenced by that and how it supposedly applies? I truly cant even guess at what people could think is racial about it much less insulting.
Goblin Squad Member
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Since when is that a racial slur?
There's a discussion of it in the thread I linked in the quote.
See defective yeti - Research Day: Gypped for a very good analysis. It makes a point that occurred to me, but which I found too offensive even to mention.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Please take the etymology discussion of what may or may not be a racial slur someplace else.
I'd love to see the bard's "All allies within sight (or hearing)" abilities, but those are simply gamebreakingly good in large (7+) tabletop games.
With that in mind: Bardic attacks and defenses in formation combat! Rather than trying to wear down your opponents' morale indirectly by hitting them with metal, attack their morale directly with a combination of sad stories, detailed discussions of what their intestines will look like spilling out of their abdomen, yo' mama jokes, and racial slurs. All shouted over the din of battle by specialists trained in the snappy comeback and interrupting others by going 'thzip!'. Advanced practitioners can even learn to snap their fingers in a Z pattern while leaning forward and going bug-eyed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please take the etymology discussion of what may or may not be a racial slur someplace else.
I'd love to see the bard's "All allies within sight (or hearing)" abilities, but those are simply gamebreakingly good in large (7+) tabletop games.
With that in mind: Bardic attacks and defenses in formation combat! Rather than trying to wear down your opponents' morale indirectly by hitting them with metal, attack their morale directly with a combination of sad stories, detailed discussions of what their intestines will look like spilling out of their abdomen, yo' mama jokes, and racial slurs. All shouted over the din of battle by specialists trained in the snappy comeback and interrupting others by going 'thzip!'. Advanced practitioners can even learn to snap their fingers in a Z pattern while leaning forward and going bug-eyed.
Golarion goblins are apparently masters of several of these techniques. Hopefully they'll get a chance to use them on us. For many characters and many goblins, there will be a language barrier, but on occasion, it could work.
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I got to call BS on that Nihimon. There is no consensus on the origin of the word "gyp" or "gypped", or any of several other spellings. Just because one cultural subset is offended doesn't mean that word is a slur. The page linked is not worth much.
Are you saying it's not a racial term? Or are you saying it's not a slur?
A cheat or swindle
Gypsy, individual of the Romani people
to defraud or rob by some sharp practice; swindle; cheat.
Origin:
1885–90, Americanism; back formation from Gypsy
A fraud or swindle.
[Probably short for Gypsy.]
(pejorative, sometimes offensive) A cheat or swindle; a rip-off.
Usage notes
Because this term is often considered to derive[1] from the the problematic exonymic term Gypsy and represent a racist stereotype of the Romani, it may be offensive. See the usage note about gypsy.
a : cheat, swindler
probably short for gypsy
A ripoff; something that is not worth what your are giving for it; refering to gypsies who make their living off of swidling others.
an act of cheating; swindle; fraud
Origin: prob. < Gypsy
That's every single non-thesaurus reference on the first page of search results for "gyp". Every single one of them says it's at least "probably" a reference to Gypsies.
The only reason I linked the page I linked is because it very early made a rather obvious parallel with another racial group that I didn't want to spell out here.
You can call it "BS" all you want. I'm sticking to my guns that it's a racial slur. I would hope that most people would respond to this knowledge with "Oh wow, I had no idea" rather than "BS" or "get over it".
Please take the etymology discussion of what may or may not be a racial slur someplace else.
You confront misinformation where you find it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would hope most people would respond to this knowledge with "Oh wow, I had no idea"
This is a tricky point for us non-US (and non-anglophone) folks.
Slang, and especially racial slur, evolves fast. Which leads to a lot of "Oh wow, I had no idea". Until you start delving a bit deeper and run into the whole US political correctness thing, where the traditional European response is less politically correct. When communicating in foreign languages (like english) we prefer words to have an up-front meaning and stick to that meaning, ignoring subtle nuances and believing that two synonyms mean the same thing.
Also, many words have different connotations in different societies. A tit is a type of bird, a boob is a stupid guy, a fag is a cigarette, etc. Which leads to "get over it".
Conclusion: expect us non-US players to use different terms, or adopt US slang without having the context. Confront us by all means, but don't necessarily assume bad intent.
Oohh, what was the topic again? right, skills. I'd like to see linguistics and diplomacy - at least on the forums.
In game: dancing skill that unlocks new animations as you increase it!
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Confront us by all means, but don't necessarily assume bad intent.
Exactly what I tried to do.
I am a prideful man, though, and sometimes respond antagonistically when I'm challenged on something of which I am very confident. My apologies if I've done this inelegantly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I checked all the same references you did Nihimon. Most say "Probably derived from..." Not really a ringing endorsement. And there's at least one site that says "the origins may be lost to history". Also, there is no consensus on whether gypsies are a race. Some references say yes, most say no.
Either way, no offense intended, but I'll use the lexicon if it fits the moment.
Speaking of gypsies, someone else had mentioned theatrical skills, bardic skills, singing, disguise, general entertaining! Add those in!
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Nihimon, first being offended is a choice though not always a concious one, second anything can be twisted to be offensive. This effect is seen clearly in the "thats what she said" joke which is applied to most any phrase to severly distort original meaning.
Therefore it is rather petty to have a word on your blacklist because or merely possible secondary connotations. It is further pettiness to take offense at something that doesn't apply to you (if it does apply to you then you at least have an excuse to be offended even if you shouldn't take offense)
The only exception is that one should always take offense when the comment is intended to be offending.
Frankly of all the things people take offense to just absurd(Derpy Hooves for example), particularly when they are just fine with shows like South Park or Beavus and buthead.
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@DarkLightHitomi, imagine yourself saying everything you just said but in response to me asking someone not to use "Jew" as a term to describe someone who's stingy. It's incredibly offensive, and I don't have to be a Jew to say so.
Yes, intent means a lot, but someone who was raised to casually use the n-word shouldn't fall back on "I didn't mean anything by it" when someone points out how offensive it is.
Using the name of any group of people as synonymous with some undesirable behavior is the very essence of racism/bigotry.
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Gyp is equally likely to come from the greek word for vulture and perhaps both gyp and gypsy cam from the same root rather then one from the other, i have seen lots of guesses about itbut nobody can say whether they are related they just sound similar.
Did you read the comments on your link? One mentioned useing a word derived from someones last name and then someone else said he was useing a racial slur just because it sounded similar to mongoloids.
People aren't takeing offense at something reasonable, they are taking offense at sound symbolism and assumtions. Both reasons for taking offense are petty even more when you consider that taking offense is a choice, it is not objective and there is no way to make is so.
Even the Nword is only offensive when used by a nonblack. Blacks use the nword on each other as a greeting. So what is a greeting for one is a slur for another, obvious that it is pointless to bother with caring.
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That is a big can of worms you open when you suggest that diplomacy should affect other PCs. That and bluff, sense motive, intimidate are all real controversial in player vs. player interactions.I would think that they can work some sort of a system in where it would effect pricing and other interactions between PCs. Like diplomacy would give an auto discount of 1% per rank on all prices paid to players when buying stuff. This is an example, but something like that would make those skills useful and needed where there is a lack of NPCs.I'd like to see Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive appear as a single skill or 'badge', and have a choice of verbal options depending upon your skill, race, badges and alignment,
A Lawful Good character might only have a few options with a Lawful Evil NPC, but a Neutral Evil character might have a plethora of them.
Those skills could be useful if there are enough NPCs in-game to make them worthwhile. Not sure, judging by my interpretation of what I have read, that there will be all that many NPCs.
If there are NPCs to interact with, they would be a great inclusion.
Diplomacy was officially ruled to not effect other player characters.
That being said pvp should treat each other as though the enemy was an npc. No reason that intimidation, bluffing and sense motive shouldn't work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is a big can of worms you open when you suggest that diplomacy should affect other PCs. That and bluff, sense motive, intimidate are all real controversial in player vs. player interactions.I would think that they can work some sort of a system in where it would effect pricing and other interactions between PCs. Like diplomacy would give an auto discount of 1% per rank on all prices paid to players when buying stuff. This is an example, but something like that would make those skills useful and needed where there is a lack of NPCs.I'd like to see Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive appear as a single skill or 'badge', and have a choice of verbal options depending upon your skill, race, badges and alignment,
A Lawful Good character might only have a few options with a Lawful Evil NPC, but a Neutral Evil character might have a plethora of them.
Those skills could be useful if there are enough NPCs in-game to make them worthwhile. Not sure, judging by my interpretation of what I have read, that there will be all that many NPCs.
If there are NPCs to interact with, they would be a great inclusion.
Diplomacy was officially ruled to not effect other player characters.
That being said pvp should treat each other as though the enemy was an npc. No reason that intimidation, bluffing and sense motive shouldn't work.
How would you use sense motive against an actual PC? How can the computer "sense" the motive of another person?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sense Motive might allow your character to 'predict' their moves, granting your character a small % bonus against their next attack, or it might let you realise there is something 'off' about this Merchant, giving you an option to check the items you are looking to buy for ground-off maker's marks a hint that he might be being threatened by the local Chapter for protection money.
Bluff works in reverse to Sense Motive, giving you a chance to 'slip one through' the enemy's defences, or making it easier for you to disguise a blemished or malfunctioning item.
Intimidation works good as 'Short Term Diplomacy' against an NPC Merchant and might very well grant a bonus to your Stand-And-Deliver challenges, allowing you to demand a higher tithe in exchange for you leaving the other Player/NPC alone.
Nothing says they HAVE to accept it, as normal, but the Intimidation factor allows you to start the S.A.D. higher than your less intimidating Chapter-mates. Alternatively, the Merchant in question can attempt intimidation against the Bandit, gaining stacking bonuses depending upon who he is allied with and if so, is he in the hex controlled by his backers so on and so forth.
Intimidate can also work well in combat, either making you look the most threatening to the enemy so they'll gang up on you and leave your cohorts alone (and since everyone will have access to intimidate, the old 'dps/tank/heal' pitfall can be jumped over) or allowing you to frighten the enemy and make them more willing to run away, making their focus on you and not your friend behind them, who is about to relieve the enemy of their spleen the old fashion way.
Diplomacy ... that's gonna be a tricky one. I could see Diplomacy being used as much as a 'haggling' skill as anything else. It would also be useful for negotiating with Neutral or better NPCs for information, goods or even alliances. It might even 'oppose' intimidate in Stand And Deliver challenges, and attempting Diplomacy in combat, especially if you've ended up in a fight you don't want to be fighting, might be able to make everyone back off and sheath their weapons.
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My thought, regarding the use of derogatory slang, is that once you learn a word is offensive to a people that is enough to restrict it's use. If the Romani are offended it doesn't matter a whit whether you intended a Greek vulture or not: The Romani are offended regardless of your intent. Consideration of the sensitivities of others is upheld as a virtue in our culture and insensitivity is not.
I understand some folks like to talk smack: the point is that it is identified offensive so the recommendation is to govern your language more closely in this international forum.
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Is it offensive though? And are enough people offended to worry about?
This came up with Derpy, 150 people signed a petition saying Derpy was offensive and to remove her from the show. Around 55 thousand people signed a petition to bring Derpy back. I am nominally one of those people suppossed offended according to those 150 people, but really Derpy is my favorite character. What right do those people have to tell everyone I'm offended?
Of all the comments and sources I've found, the overwhelming majority merely "suppose" that gyp comes from gypsy and none have refered to it as offensive or have heard of someone being offended.
And given my past experiences I think it is as stupid to assume it's offensive as it is to be offended by anything other than clear intent to offend.
@bringslight
I suggested useing sense motive vs bluff to mundanly detect alignment. Could also be used against disguise or perhaps some assassin/spy abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it offensive though? And are enough people offended to worry about?
This came up with Derpy, 150 people signed a petition saying Derpy was offensive and to remove her from the show. Around 55 thousand people signed a petition to bring Derpy back. I am nominally one of those people suppossed offended according to those 150 people, but really Derpy is my favorite character. What right do those people have to tell everyone I'm offended?
Of all the comments and sources I've found, the overwhelming majority merely "suppose" that gyp comes from gypsy and none have refered to it as offensive or have heard of someone being offended.
And given my past experiences I think it is as stupid to assume it's offensive as it is to be offended by anything other than clear intent to offend.
@bringslight
I suggested useing sense motive vs bluff to mundanly detect alignment. Could also be used against disguise or perhaps some assassin/spy abilities.
Why not leave detect alignment to the spell and detect disguise to perception?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it offensive though? And are enough people offended to worry about?...
One person has openly stated the term is offensive. Are you going to tell me that offending one person is insignificant? What is your gating number? Ten? A hundred? Or is one person more valuable to you than the effort it might take to be thoughtful and considerate in public?
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Only casters have the spell (which theoretically infallible except by more magic) and it would really be the best indicator of what the other player intends as far as what the computer can tell anyway. Also it is very close to the original use of sense motive. As for vs disguise, I always thought either perception or sense motive would be used depending on situation. (perception for seeing the disguised and sense motive for interacting with the disguise)
So the skill would be used anybody while the spell would only be used by casters and only when suspicious enough to cast it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Only casters have the spell (which theoretically infallible except by more magic) and it would really be the best indicator of what the other player intends as far as what the computer can tell anyway. Also it is very close to the original use of sense motive. As for vs disguise, I always thought either perception or sense motive would be used depending on situation. (perception for seeing the disguised and sense motive for interacting with the disguise)
So the skill would be used anybody while the spell would only be used by casters and only when suspicious enough to cast it.
Your ideas are interesting. We don't yet know if a pcs alignment will be visible to any who look automatically. Let's assume that it isn't though. Why make it so easy to discern? Why dumb down unique powers, spells, etc. by giving them to everyone? Why make so many checks to detect disguise that disguise is impossible?
I once had a DM that would make his players roll so many checks to accomplish an action or small series of actions that it was literally a "roll until you fail" situation. He didn't last long.
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As a computer game many checks will be made without the notice of the player. Skills are not sure successes, and it gives options to non casters. Besides as pointed out before the computer can't inform others of another players intent or motives, but the alignment is a decent indicator and the best the computer has available. Fail the check and the alignment remains unseen, pass and see their alignment.
Besides disguise shouldn't be auto success except by magic and really a player only gets two chances to discover a disguise, first upon entering the area and second is only if the players interact. Thzt doesn't seem overly much.
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On the matter of racial slurs. The origins of the term under debate are uncertain but the term has and is used as a racial slur and does offend some people. That should be enough.
You are the only one to say it has it has been used without doubt. Even commentors from europe (where one would expect to know for sure if used) say it they have never heard of it used in ad deragtory fashion. In fact every comment thus far has point to the term being used to refer to cheating or a bodily pain(depending on which side ofthe pond) and some being told it's theoretically a slur, butnone bave heard it used as such.
Frankly I am of the firm mind that a rare few individuals expect it to be a slur because of the sound symboism without it haveing actually been so, in a similar fashion one commentorhad mentioned using the word "mongy" which he and his friends got from the shortening of someones last name. Then he got told off once for it being a slur to mongoloids.
Obviously some people just see offense entirely too easy and that see suppossed offense in things that really don't mean anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@DarkLightHitomi Then it appears that you feel the effort required to avoid offending people is too great to consider schooling your language to the cultural context of the conversation, and somehow have decided that you are in a position to judge when those offended are merely too sensitive to racial slurs.
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Primarily, I dont think it was ever a racial slur, i think some overly polictical correct people assumed it was because it's similarity to another word for a "race."
Yes, I think taking offense is a choice, therefore it's petty to take offense when it's obvious that no offense was intended.
Yes, I think it is petty to take offense on behalf of someone else. And even worse to try to do something about it.
But most of all, anything said can be taken as offensive in some fashion, therefore, there is no point in worrying about some minor offense that likely doesn't matter to whomever it is suppossedly referencing when it isn't actually referencing anybody.
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You may consider my world view petty for sticking up for others. I will have my opinions of you as well.
Right, cause telling people off for liking Derpy is really gonna make me happy.
It's not sticking up for people, at best it's coddling them (which isn't a good thing) and more likely they would find your political correctness as irritating as everyone else.
Frankly, we disagree on this point. Hopefully you'll just consider me rude and not much worse.
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Okay, I want some variation of Handle Animal and Ride. If my horse dies and a wolf is nearby, I'd like to trade up.
I would expect options like Charge and Attack for my trusty if temporary steed, though.
I know it's intended that we can raise Dragons from eggs, so I'd bet on Handle Animal being necessary, but can we train it so the librassin can ride it? Because I want to see a dragonrider collecting library fees.
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Really? Why is that? The entire difference of opinion is over something that can at worst be considered rude, so what is so horrible about my opinion that it is not just worse, but MUCH worse?...Hopefully you'll just consider me rude and not much worse.No: much worse would be accurate.
Do you guys really want to continue with this in a public thread about skills in PFO? (New thread or let it go, please).
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Do you guys really want to continue with this in a public thread about skills in PFO? (New thread or let it go, please).
No, I really, really do not want to continue this line of thought in public, however I already did make a public statement that should responsibly be explained, especially if there is a possibility that DarkLightHitomi really wants to understand where that came from. Please forgive my expansion on the issue but some things are more important than mere comfort.
It would be unjust to fail to explain why I said what I did.
I hold it is much worse than merely rude to slight a human culture with a derogatory term that invites even unconscious cultural bigotry, even in ignorance, let alone awareness. It is worse than that to not care if you harm someone with an insult that triggers a sense of real social injustice in them.
Even if we are unaware that a word we learned as children might actually harm someone else by insult, once we learn of the problem we should at least be responsible and caring enough to replace that word with a less bigotry-laden one.
Insults do harm people, and to not care about that possibility is irresponsible.
It is much worse than 'rude' to not care what the effects of your actions are, and it would be even worse than that to enjoy inflicting suffering on others. If it costs you no trouble at all to stop using that harmful word and it causes suffering in one person why else would you persist in using it unless you enjoyed causing suffering?
There is more than enough suffering in the world without our consciously adding to it.
So I intend stop posting now on this matter since I have explained my judgment call.