Breaking Magic Weapons

[Duderlybob]

(TL:DR at bottom for those who just want me to get to the point)

So, currently playing in a fairly high level evil campaign. Our GM has suggested that beyond this just being a game in which everyone is evil, there's a good chance that coming plot twists will lead to PvP.

So I'm ok with that, I did build my character partly with this in mind. Which brings me to the crux of the matter. I am playing one of two fighters in the party, both of us are Drow. My contemporary chose to go fairly standard with a two-weapon fighting, dual rapier fighter. Pretty standard for a Drow, but very high on the DPS.

I on the other hand decided to say screw it to standard Drow fighting technique and go for a sword/shield, heavy armor, two-weapon fighter. Knowing what our party was likely to go head to head at some point during the adventure, I went with a Living Steel shield, for it's rule of "Metal weapons that roll a natural one gain the Broken Condition." And figured that since my opposing fighter would be completely spamming dice, the chance of him rolling a natural 1 is actually fairly good given time.

Now, as I hang out with my GM outside of game time, I mentioned this strategy off hand as we discussed the game. His response was that a magic weapon (like the other fighter has) wouldn't be susceptible to this, but I can't find this in the rules at all. Obviously, GM's word is law in the end, but wanted to get people's opinion on whether or not this was actually rules based or not. I'm willing to abide by my GM's ruling. But if he simply has misunderstood the rules, and since my character's survival may hang on the answer, I'm making sure that I actually know the rules well enough to have them on my side if I have to go that route.

TL:DR

Are magic weapons either immune to, or resistant to gaining the broken condition? Particularly in the case of Living Steel Armor/Shields.

[KainPen]

Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage
a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his
weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the
weapon struck. p.468 Core rule book This only applies to weapons magic armor or shields can be broken other wise. Note this is for sunder attacks not spells or magical effects. A rust monster can still be the bane metal magic weapons.

p.459 A magic item doesn’t need to make a saving throw unless it
is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its
wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always
get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to
them—even against attacks from which a nonmagical item
would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the
same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the
type (Fortitude, Ref lex, or Will). A magic item’s saving throw
bonus equals 2 + 1/2 its caster level (rounded down). The only
exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make
Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores.
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as
nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item
continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical
power is lost. Magic items that take damage in excess of half
their total hit points, but not more than their total hit points,
gain the condition, and might not function properly (see the
Appendix).

Living Steel Heavy Shield
Aura no aura (non-magical); CL —; Weight 15 lbs.; Price 120 gp
DESCRIPTION

This non-magical heavy steel shield is made out of living steel. It has no enhancement bonus, but its material and construction can damage metal weapons that strike it. Whenever the wielder of a metal weapon (other than one made of adamantine) rolls a natural 1 on an attack against a creature wielding this shield, the item must make a DC 20 Fortitude save or gain the broken condition. If the weapon already has the broken condition, it is instead destroyed.

I would say Living Steel would be exception to the rule as it is granting a saving throw and not doing damage as if struck by sunder. It was also published after core rule being it is more up to date rule. Also it requires the attack to strike the shield not the shield attack the weapon. It is on par with rust monster.

[DesolateHarmony]

KainPen wrote:

Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage

a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his
weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the
weapon struck. p.468 Core rule book This only applies to weapons magic armor or shields can be broken other wise. Note this is for sunder attacks not spells or magical effects. A rust monster can still be the bane metal magic weapons.

What version of the CRB are you looking at? My 5th printing says nothing like this, and I can't find it on the PRD.

[Malachi Silverclaw]

The requirement for a greater enhancement bonus when considering sunder has been errata'd out of the latest revision. Relative enhancement bonus is no longer a factor in sunder.

[KainPen]

4th Printing. If it was taken out then living steel should work with out issues.

[Duderlybob]

Very good information, thanks KainPen. So assuming I have a shield of Bashing, which counts as a +1 Magic Weapon, I can at the very least argue that it would damage +1 Magic Weapons, if not others. Still kinda dicey, but I do at least have a few good points of evidence on my side.

[Diego Rossi]

It has been changed. From the fourth printing update to the 5th:

Page 468—In the Weapons Section, delete the Damaging Magic Weapons paragraph. Add the following paragraph in its place:

Hardness and Hit Points: Each +1 of a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus adds +2 to its hardness and +10 to its hit points. See also Table 7–12 on page 175.

[Claxon]

I'm going to say no magical weapons are not immune to the effects of the living steel shield.

First the opponent must attack you and roll a 1. Secondly the item gets a save. Third, the item only gains the broken condition, it is not destroyed, nor does it actually take HP damage. Broken only imposes a -2 to attack and damage, and while not fun, isn't going to destroy a characters combat effectiveness.

Also, can't magical weapons use the save of the creature wielding it if it is higher? On a high level fighter they probably have a pretty good chance of being successful.

Anyways, in the event of in game PvP I'd be less worried about your other fighter companion and be more worried about any spellcasters in the group. You might want to invest some resources in a method to kill them off first.

[Duderlybob]

Yeah, have developed counter measures against pretty much the whole party, the shield was just part of my particular efforts against the weapon wielders I may end up fighting.

But looks like I got a fairly definitive answer as to my question, so thanks everyone!

[Claxon]

If you want to shut down the other fighter take the dueling enchant (the Pathfinder Society version as there are two) which lets you add double your weapon enhancement bonus to combat maneuvers which use the weapon. Disarm and sunder both use the weapon regardless of what weapon you are using, other can also have trip or other features. With a +5 weapon you end up adding +5 enhancement from the weapon and +10 bonus from dueling to your CMB to disarm or sunder. This becomes a very effective method to either destroy your opponent's weapon or disarm them.

Coming up with a good defense verses casters is really the harder thing to do, if you can come up with a way to produce an antimagic field around yourself when it comes time to fight them they have no offense or defense against you really. At best they can delay a bit with some offensive spells, of course finding a way to create an antimagic field is going to be hard as a fighter unless you can get a custom magic item made.