So I've been a tabletop gamer for about 5-6 years now (and a fantasy nerd since I was born). I've played 3.5, 4e, Pathfinder, Star Wars RPG, and both Warhammers. Through my travels at old gaming stores I've picked up the three books I need to start playing first edition AD&D. I don't have the reprints, I have just old copies that had been in a gaming store's basement for thirty years and I've poured over the rulebooks, but I'm still pretty confused about a lot of things.
So far I understand that all dice rolls for combat and non-combat encounters run off of tables that are augmented by ability scores, class race, etc. What I guess is how does morale work (I've seen hints of it in the rulebook but I haven't really done any digging)? How does initiative work, is there a modifier, and how does weapon speed factor com into play?
Is there just like a free guide out there that gives me the basics on character creation and gameplay? If so can someone send me a link?
I guess I'm really just confused on overall gameplay. I really just need some help with everything.
IIRC initiative was a d10 roll, adjusted by Dexterity and weapon speed/spell cast time. The catch was that the lower initiative went before higher so everyone aimed at lowest total possible.
I think that morale checks were either 2d6 or 3d6 roll, aiming to roll equal to or under the Morale value.
I found a .pdf of Keep on the Borderlands. Should that be good?
The main thing to consider when DMing 1st edition is to get the overall feel you want right (although that can be said for any edition). Many people playing ignored rules like morale and weapon speed. They slowed the game down. When I played, the DM would just decide when a group of bad guys had enough and would run...more common sense than dice rolls. There were no skill rules, so the player would just announce to the DM what they wanted to do (hopefully describing it in ways that were interesting and feasible) and the DM would decide if it worked or if we should have to roll a Dex check or an Int check (or whatever) on a d20, or if really difficult, 2d20.
I do think that the reason a lot of us "old timers" loved playing thieves was that we were forced to think through how to disarm a trap, or find a secret door, or lay an ambush, or whatever. Yes, we had the thief skill rolls but (at least in the games I played in) if you could describe what you wanted to do well enough, you could get a bonus on the roll (actually a subtraction cause you wanted to roll low) or even auto succeed.
One other thing to keep in mind is that 1st edition rules were a mixture of roleplaying rules and wargaming rules because wargames were the basis from which Gygax and gang understood. As such, certain mechanics (like morale) made much more sense in a tabletop wargame than in a fantasy role-playing game.
A suggestion: find a copy of Amber Diceless rpg and play a couple of sessions. This will help get you, as the DM, get into the mindset of making a lot more decisions without rolling dice. Then go to 1st edition and see what rules you need to enjoy the game. Throw away the rest.
In the early editions of the 1st edition rule books (especially the DMG), there were a lot of Appendices for all kinds of optional rules, like psionics. Some people loved the rules and used them, but most ignored them.
Hope that helped.
Okey dokey, I think I'm wrapping my mind around the majority of the game and the feel. I think I'll try to get a session started soon. My interest is really piqued and I like the old-school feel even though I never played it before.
Is there anything special I should know about DMing? I really have no idea how to work XP. It seemed really confusing like with gold = XP and adjusted for LVL and junk.
One note about weapon speed -- back in the 1E and 2E eras, it was very common to ignore that rule. I do not recall ever playing in a game that used that rule.
Initiative was rolled on d6 in 1E and d10 in 2E. There were also surprise checks, rolled on the same dice but with no modifiers for ability scores.
For morale, look at the values of the most fanatically brave monsters in your Monster Manual or equivalent. If it maxes out at 12, then roll 2d6 for morale. If it maxes out at 20, roll 2d10. I do not recall ever seeing a percentile value used. Also, note that these values are for NPCs and for DM controlled monsters -- player characters can fight to the death if they want as long as they are not subjected to a supernatural fear effect.
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I would be hesitant to suggest any of the 'B' series of modules to a person who is trying to get a grasp on 1st Edition AD&D. The 'B' series, including B2: The Keep on the Borderlands and B4: The Lost City (The Palace of the Silver Princess was B3) wwere all written for Basic D&D, not AD&D.
The rules differences between Basic and Advanced D&D are significant enough that a newbie DM shouldn't try to run the conversion.
If you're looking for a great 1st level AD&D Module, I'd suggest U1: The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh.
The questions about initiative, morale, and weapon speed have been well answered. Just remember that Morale checks are only for monsters, the PCs choose at all times whether to fight, withdraw, flee, or surrender.
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Okey dokey, I think I'm wrapping my mind around the majority of the game and the feel. I think I'll try to get a session started soon. My interest is really piqued and I like the old-school feel even though I never played it before.
Is there anything special I should know about DMing? I really have no idea how to work XP. It seemed really confusing like with gold = XP and adjusted for LVL and junk.
Learn on the job, it was the way of 1e. Coming from Holmes and then getting into 1e was a real shock way back when! My first character was a Druid - actually wanted a Paladin (sigh) but my stats while excellent (see Druid) I just wasn't Charismatic enough :(
I'll find a link I have on the initiative system as best guessed by those who spoke with Gygax and others. I also wargame and the full initiative system is rather complicated but has a really good feel to it.
In short Gygax changed things like the wind also. So you can not doing anything wrong as long as players are having fun. Back in high school we just went with both sides roll d6 and the highest goes first and ties were simultaneous for initiative. We never delved into what speed factors were for etc. However we did play the weapon 'to hit' adjustments. Many didn't but if you do they really add flavour to the weapons. In 1e why anyone would ever use a Crossbow is a mystery, but use the to hit adjustments and suddenly you find that when faced with armoured knights a Crossbow rules and a Longbow is better suited to shooting peasants. If you are a wargamer try the weapon to hit adjusts they just feel right.
We did play Gold = XP and never found it a problem, far less than any WBL as in PF for example.
I'm sure you will get lots of help on these forums, us old schoolers love retelling tales of our youth :)
S.
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Ponswick, in the many years that I ran AD&D, I never made use of weapon speeds. The game runs faster without that rule. I also never gave xp for gold; to me, gold is its own reward. Instead, I gave xp for monsters and bonuses for good role-play.
If you like old-school style play but want something a bit more streamlined and in-print, check out Swords & Wizardry (it's available thru the Piazo store http://paizo.com/products/btpy8yg8?Swords-Wizardry-Complete-Rulebook-2013-E dition). It has the option of using classic descending AC or modern ascending AC, is very clearly organized, classic modules adapt with minimal conversion (or the S&W modules can be used with AD&D), and is well-supported by both professional modules and by many on-line blogs.
Regards,
V
We did play Gold = XP and never found it a problem, far less than any WBL as in PF for example.
I prefer giving experience for treasure - it's really about what you want to incentivise. Players are great at following carrots, in my experience.
Also, if you remove this feature, you kind of undercut some of the point of wandering monsters (so you might want to remove those as well). As written they are a resource drain, pure and simple, since they rarely have much treasure and dont give much experience points. If you decrease that distinction, there's less incentive to avoid them (and you end up checking for traps every ten feet of every corridor).
If you want to really enjoy earlier roleplaying games, the paucity of rules subsystems is something to embrace, in my view. Approaching it from a "what's the rule for that?" perspective will give the impression the system is incomplete. If the players are willing to just go with whatever mechanic the DM comes up with on the fly, the game can move really quickly and cover a lot of ground.
Or for free OSRIC is 1e in all but name. One book only has PHB, DMG, and MM. There modification on the initiative system is inspired - no weapon vs armour hit adjustments however :(
Swords and Wizardry Core is also free if you want to 'try before you buy' the complete version (which adds a few more classes, basically.
Care to give a brief summary of the OSRIC modification to the initiative system?
1st edition is a bit of a conundrum - because most of the pieces are there for a very good reason, but why is not explained. Take wandering monsters, for example. A serious issue in discussions about PF today is "how do you avoid the 15 minute adventuring day?", the issue that players choose to rest after every fight, and thus have far more power since they can "empty the stores" completely every round since they do not have to save for the next battle. With wandering monsters, resting becomes difficult or impossible, thereby negating this problem. You often have to read various editorials in Dragon magazine or other related texts to get these little hints, the rules had no sidebars. People talk of RAW, rules as written, and RAI, rules as intended, today. In 1st edition, RAW was all we had. The discussions could be quite vitriolic due to this.
I think I'm getting a handle on things. I guess there's a lot of leeway on the rules. Now that it has come up which module should run first, it seems like Keep On The Borderlands isn't the right choice. Is that true? Is it a big deal?
I think I'm getting a handle on things. I guess there's a lot of leeway on the rules. Now that it has come up which module should run first, it seems like Keep On The Borderlands isn't the right choice. Is that true? Is it a big deal?
Keep on the Borderlands was "basic" D&D. If you are running AD&D, you may need to revisit the monsters and use stats for them from the Monster Manual or the back of the DMG (which has a master listing, as I recall).
Is it too different because I have the MM?
Pffft. It's not "oh my god no don't use that it will take months to convert", exactly. The monster stats are pretty similar, enough so that you can make very good guesses on what goes where and means what. Some things may be a bit different, for example, Alignment is Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic only in Original D&D, while AD&D 1 adds a Good-Evil axis as well. If you have the MM, I would say you're in the clear, because the monsters used are pretty basic. What might remain to you are some spells that work slightly different and some other details.
So Keep On The Borderlands is chill?
I think so. Don't quote me on it, though, I haven't gone through it to check. However, I still think you would do better with Palace of the Silver Princess. Wasn't that possible to download for free?
Keep On The Borderlands was free I haven'y really checked out any others.
Keep On The Borderlands was free I haven't really checked out any others.
Sorry about that my computer spazzed.
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To be honest, I've never really thought the conversions between any of the pre-d20 editions were that complicated. It'd rate it as about the same as conversions between 3.5 and pathfinder....you can make it more complicated if you insist that everything is 100% converted, but for the most part you can just use the stats that are given and make any absolutely necessary conversions on-the-fly.
That ogre is a bit different than the offical by-the-Monster Manual ogre? Does it really matter?
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For a simple low level starter AD&D 1E module, you might want to try any of N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God, T1 Village of Hommlet or U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh. T1 is probably the best bet but all are good.
B2 Keep on the Borderlands as mentioned uses the Basic rules, but that said, if you did a straight up replacement of the monsters with the equivalent one in the 1E Monster Manual you're probably 75% or more of the way there.
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Classic D&D is the same game from 1974-1999 (0e - 2e). Each edition had ever expanding options and different organization. However, it is all easily compatible and modular with no wrong way to play. It really didn't become a different game (although still easily convertible for spells & magic items) until 3e. The major differences really come down to tone, organization, and the options presented.
As for monster replacement, most are still the same. For example, whether you playing 0e-2e, D&D B/X, D&D BECMI, the basilisk HD are 6+1, the bite is still 1d10 and the gaze reguires a save vs. petrification. Although for 0e, D&D B/X, D&B BECMI, the base AC 9 vs AC 10 for AD&D, Gygax didn't bother to adjust the AC, most ACs remain the same.
As Kthulhu said, any conversions are not that complicated. So, whatever module you have from this classic era will work and if you wish to try anything recent may I suggest any of the Swords & Wizardry material from Frog God Games.
I want to stick with AD&D, but I might check out T1
Then check out pdfs of classic D&D materials at http://www.dndclassics.com.
My players are asking what non-weapon proficiencies are. They can't find it in the book, but one player says they're part of AD&D. Is a 2nd Addition thing?
Yep. Basically, you got a few NWPs, these were chosen from the General, Warrior, Rogue, Wizard and Priest groups, and cost one to three slots. You got that NWP's basic stat level in it, so if you chose Healing, you got your Wis score in it. You could put another slot for +1. Then when you used it, you rolled below or equal on d20 to succeed.
My players are asking what non-weapon proficiencies are. They can't find it in the book, but one player says they're part of AD&D. Is a 2nd Addition thing?
Non-weapon proficiencies became a part of AD&D with the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and the Wilderness Survival Guide. If you aren't playing with those two books (and I don't think you should), you should abstract all 'skill' checks to be stat tests with conditional modifiers.
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My players are asking what non-weapon proficiencies are. They can't find it in the book, but one player says they're part of AD&D. Is a 2nd Addition thing?
Non Weapon Proficiencies were a part of 1st edition, but they were not added to the game until 1985 with the release of "Oriental Adventures"...
The "Dungeoneer's Survival Guide" and the "Wilderness Survival Guide" books were released a year later in 1986...
And for some advice on "old school" gaming... You can find a "quick primer" on PDF for free HERE
It wasn't written specifically for AD&D (it was written for "Swords & Wizardy"), but I think the advice it presents will give you a pretty good idea of how to run an old school game such as AD&D...
We are about to start our first adevnture. Our party is a Human Monk, a Human Wizard, a Halfling Thief, and a Dwarf Fighter. I'm running T1 the Village of Hommlet.
Sounds great - should be a fun time. You should start a thread in the campaign journals and let us know how it goes.
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We are about to start our first adevnture. Our party is a Human Monk, a Human Wizard, a Halfling Thief, and a Dwarf Fighter. I'm running T1 the Village of Hommlet.
Awesome! Interesting to have a Monk.
Did you remember to check for Psionics? Monk have one of the best chances thanks to their required minimum stats...
If you play by the rules, the Moat House is a likely source of TPKs and player deaths. You've got three squishies in that group, and Fighters are pretty squishy at 1st level as well.
It's not something that is expected in modern games, but retainers and henchmen can help a lot, and they are nice warm bodies to turn into replacement PCs when someone gets eaten by a frog or turned into a fine red mist from a staff of striking.
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Or for free OSRIC is 1e in all but name. One book only has PHB, DMG, and MM. There modification on the initiative system is inspired - no weapon vs armour hit adjustments however :(Swords and Wizardry Core is also free if you want to 'try before you buy' the complete version (which adds a few more classes, basically.
Care to give a brief summary of the OSRIC modification to the initiative system?
From OSRIC v2.2. It works really well, however, you do loose a lot of the subtle details from the full 1e AD&D system - but for new players this is countered by not being so darn confusing.
3. determine Initiative: After any surprise segments are resolved
and spell casting is declared, the fi rst combat round
begins. At the beginning of a combat round, each side rolls
initiative on a d6. The roll represents the six second segment
of the round in which the OTHER group will be able to act;
hence, the higher roll is the better roll (as the other party will
act later). If the party rolls a 6 for initiative, and the monsters
roll a 1, this means that the party will be acting in segment 1,
and the monsters will not act until the sixth segment of the
10-segment round. Since a combat round is 10 segments long,
and the initiative roll only covers the fi rst six segments of the
round, there are four remaining segments in the round after
the two sides have already taken their actions: these remaining
four segments are still important because spells may take effect
during this time, and some combatants might “hold” (choose to
delay) their actions, waiting to act until these later segments.
Or for free OSRIC is 1e in all but name. One book only has PHB, DMG, and MM. There modification on the initiative system is inspired - no weapon vs armour hit adjustments however :(Swords and Wizardry Core is also free if you want to 'try before you buy' the complete version (which adds a few more classes, basically.
Care to give a brief summary of the OSRIC modification to the initiative system?
From OSRIC v2.2. It works really well, however, you do loose a lot of the subtle details from the full 1e AD&D system - but for new players this is countered by not being so darn confusing.
3. determine Initiative: After any surprise segments are resolved
and spell casting is declared, the fi rst combat round
begins. At the beginning of a combat round, each side rolls
initiative on a d6. The roll represents the six second segment
of the round in which the OTHER group will be able to act;
hence, the higher roll is the better roll (as the other party will
act later). If the party rolls a 6 for initiative, and the monsters
roll a 1, this means that the party will be acting in segment 1,
and the monsters will not act until the sixth segment of the
10-segment round. Since a combat round is 10 segments long,
and the initiative roll only covers the fi rst six segments of the
round, there are four remaining segments in the round after
the two sides have already taken their actions: these remaining
four segments are still important because spells may take effect
during this time, and some combatants might “hold” (choose to
delay) their actions, waiting to act until these later segments.
How does that work with individual init or three or more sides?
Then check out pdfs of classic D&D materials at http://www.dndclassics.com.
Zarathos, thanks for posting this! I had no idea this site was out there... I just downloaded a PDF copy of L3, which I never thought I would get my mits on. Hot damn, I am set for pool-side reading this weekend! ^_^
Okey dokey, I think I'm wrapping my mind around the majority of the game and the feel. I think I'll try to get a session started soon. My interest is really piqued and I like the old-school feel even though I never played it before.
Is there anything special I should know about DMing? I really have no idea how to work XP. It seemed really confusing like with gold = XP and adjusted for LVL and junk.
I can’t resist this one!
At Origins ’78, I had the pleasure of talking to Gary Gygax about some of the rules for D&D. Among other things, I asked him about the “Gold = Experience” rules, which I found quite confusing.
Mr. Gygax explained that his original idea was that your character’s advancement in level was not just an advancement in personal ability, but also in social status, holdings, feudal responsibilities, and so on. “Gold = Experience” did not mean that if you had a fat wallet, your character was more powerful. This ‘experience’ that came from gold represented your character’s social, political, and economic station. Mr. Gygax was clear that the gold that became ‘experience points’ was out of circulation: You couldn’t go to the local magic shop and buy a +2 Flaming Sword with it; that gold was invested in your career path. (He was opposed to magic shops and ever buying magic items, for that matter!).
Understanding levels in this context makes rules like a fighter gaining a stronghold keep and followers at 9th level make more sense: Level is not just your personal can of wup-a**; it was how your character fit into the world as a whole. Sadly, none of this was really explained in the game rules.
I advise you to ignore “gold/XP”; most of us did.
Oh, and Marshall Jansen is right about the “B” modules. Pick up Temple of Elemental Evil, and start the players with the village of Homlett.
That discussion of earning XPs for acquiring treasure does remind me of a house rule in that regard that I do recall using. There was an obvious contradiction between gaining XPs for treasure on the one hand and paying for training to gain levels, general upkeep, and other means that the DM was encouraged to use to separate a player character from his money.
What I did was drop most of the expenses as well as the giving of XP for acquiring treasure -- but since there was not much else to spend money on back then, I did allow the option of earning XPs for money given away (spent on training or other intangibles, but not used to buy useful items). It was a much more efficient way to support the trope of characters gaining large amounts of treasure and then spending it all, leaving them hungry to go adventuring again.
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For a simple low level starter AD&D 1E module, you might want to try any of N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God, T1 Village of Hommlet or U1 Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh. T1 is probably the best bet but all are good.
B2 Keep on the Borderlands as mentioned uses the Basic rules, but that said, if you did a straight up replacement of the monsters with the equivalent one in the 1E Monster Manual you're probably 75% or more of the way there.
N1 is probably best kept for a time when a group unfamiliar with 1e gains a bit more experience. It was challenging for my experienced (been playing since '79, '80) players when I ran it for them in '92, and can get overwhelming quickly. Plus, the final boss!
Salt Marsh and Hommlet are perfect for new groups (the former because the encounters aren't brutal, and most of it is atmosphere, the latter because of all of the NPCs willing to help the party).