12+ Players in One Game

[Scott_UAT]

So I have been running an open game for about 2 1/2 years now.
Our un-advertised rule of thumb is "if you ask to join the game, you can".

The premise is set up the handle that (they are a military unit/part of one and have to effect change on a large scale).

Obviously game handles like herding cats sometimes but ultimately it actually works. We do a lot of mass combat.

With the option to "play with less players" off the table, what suggestions might you guys have for speeding up play?

Some things we have enacted:
Pre-rolling attacks (recording values)
5 min turns (if it takes more than 5 min, turn ends where it is at)

Some things we want to try:
2 turns at once (on two different battles)

[MrSin]

When I had a group where the party split often and was usually very large, we usually ended up delegating the task of Co-DM to someone. Got peoples eyes off games that included meta-game knowledge and let us get a lot done faster.

[Rom001]

Wow! 12+ Players!?!?!? May as well call it a "convention" and not "game night"! ;p

One suggestion, if I may, is split them into smaller groups - 3 groups of 4-6 players mayhaps??? As the GM you'll have you're work cut out for ya...meaning you'll have to "create" different situations on/near the same battlefield/area.

Look at the "Lord of the Rings" movie. On the grounds in front of Minias Tirith you had King Thoeden, Eowyn, and Merry attacking on the grounds; Gandalf and Pipin inside the Gates of Minas Tirith; Aragon, Legolas and Gimili arrived by the river and EVERYONE else some where on the battlefield/general vicinity!

So yeah it can be done, only YOU have to make the setting. However, MAYBE, you can select "trusted" friends of the group to "co GM" the smaller groups. Those who've been meaning to GM, but don't have the experience. This is a great way to get budding GMs to get their feet wet.

Otherwise "rotate" Co Gm responsibilities. This way EVERYONE gets a taste of being a GM and MAYBE everyone will have a better understanding that a GM as to go through!

These "co GMs" will run the games per table, BUT you DO NOT have to give them the plot or have them run "key NPCs". Just tell them that they have to run the "usual" NPC on your behalf (the baddies that the PCs have to deal with etc). Again they need not know the overall plot you have made.

Here's a for example:

Your PC's are at the battlefield. Because of the number of PC "groups" you decide to have four (4) Objectives they must complete to win the day. To get the creative juices flowing:

- Gather intelligence by infiltrating the enemy camp
- Disrupt enemy/protect allied supply lines
- Assassinate key enemy NPC(s)
- Hold the line somewhere on the battlefield
- Protect a key "injured" Ally NPC (When King Theoden was grabbed by the Wraith King and Eowyn protected him)

There are more, but you get the idea.

However if you plan on a Dungeon Raid that's a bit trickier/easier simply because a dungeon can "restrict" movement and/or options. Again I refer you the J.R.R. Tolkien's books "The Hobbit". Look how many started on that Journey. Imagine, at the end of their "quest" the entire group, all 12+, had to go against a Dragon! Go ahead...have them ALL raid a Dragon's hoard!

So in the above scenario instead of a small group of High Level PCs taking on a Dragon, it will be a "large group" of low to medium Level PCs taking on a a Dragon! Remember encounters are based by the PCs' collective CR level.

Anywho I hope that's a good start to get your noggin a thinnkin'.

That'll be two cp please,

Rom001

(partial Ninja'd by MrSin)

[Joesi]

5-minute turns? WTF are you talking about?
How in the world could you get anything done at all if some of your turns are near or surpass 5 minutes and you have 12 people‽ That would be 1 hour for just one round if everyone used their time limit!

I've played games with only like 5-7 PCs and people have been proposing to add like 30-second time limits to turns or something (because combat is really slow, generally takes an hour or more).

A good idea to save a bit of time (don't know how much) is have the DM pre-roll all his D20 rolls for the session (like 40 or 100 rolls or something) and have them written down on paper, so that he just needs to cross them off when used.

I'd say the most important thing is to have players plan what their characters are going to do whilst other players are executing their turns. Unless something significant happens, their planned action wouldn't likely change much, and even if that significant thing does happen, they'd still have x number of other players' turns to re-plan unless that event occurred directly before his turn. Even then, the player should try to plan ahead an expect likely things to happen such as "my planned target dies","someone critically damages me/someone","allies/enemies are retreating", and have contingencies laid out so that he can act accordingly to those things

Finally, while difficult to enact sometimes (abilities that only apply certain buffs in certain instances, not all the time), it's good to have all bonuses to attack(/DC) and damage already written down for what that character is going to do; that way after the rolls occur it's a simple addition.

Many DMs may allow players to Pre-roll their dice for their turn for that round (only that round) to save time. This way the player essentially just asks the DM if his X hits, and if it does than X effect/damage occurs — no rolling, and no addition performed at all during the turn, which can reduce turn times to mere seconds!
There's a minor concern of cheating here, but if you have trusted players then that's no problem. Also, and perhaps more importantly, you can have adjacent players monitor other players' rolls if you find it's necessary.

MrSin wrote:

When I had a group where the party split often and was usually very large, we usually ended up delegating the task of Co-DM to someone. Got peoples eyes off games that included meta-game knowledge and let us get a lot done faster.

And of course this, but I don't need to repeat what's already been said.

occasional/temporary Co-DMs work well for combat, because they're not really learning anything about the plot, only some numbers about creatures that are probably going to die soon anyway. He might need to be informed about some specific events that will occur during combat though (dynamic/new hazards, reinforcements).
With so many people, it's probably best to have one or two of your most regular and familiar-with-PF players be permanent co-DMs, who could optionally control their old PCs as NPCs if they don't want to let go of them.

[EldonG]

Hahahaha...

'The big game' I used to play in - friends and family - reached its peak at 17. 17 people! I think it's down to 14 or 15. Seriously.

It drove me crazy. I never had time for anything.

I ran a game for 8 for 1 1/2 years (weekly)...but the big game has been going on for 5-6 at least...but it's only monthly. They've gone through 3 different party changes that I know of.

[Anguish]

Definitely need to have a visible initiative tracker so everyone knows "I'm next" and they're expected to pre-plan their actions. If the guy before you does something that seriously changes your plan (say, moves into a square you needed for charging), only then do you get actual time to think about your action. And yes, you have to justify why you're not ready.

[Ciaran Barnes]

1) Don't hide initiative. Assign an initiative caller, kind of how Monopoly has a banker.

2) Players need to accept that there is not a perfect action each round. Stressing over whether or not your 5 ft step sets up a flank, to attack or buff, who will engage the enemy caster, and the choice to put away or drop your bow are not worth slowing down the game in a group this large. Make a decision quickly and begin it, since resolving the actions might take a minute or two. If a player can't decide and begin to act on it in ten seconds, he she should consider not using the full turn. This might mean taking only a move action. I might mean total defense. It might mean only making a knowledge check. The party's success or failure does not hinge on one decision.

3) Encourage the melee types to memorize or write down attack bonuses for different variables: vanilla attack, with power attacks, with rage and power attack, ranged attack, with flank, etc, etc. Their pre-calculated numbers should cover at least half of the situations that crop up.

4) Prepared spell casters should have a standard spell list, with small modifications made day to day. It is important to know your most used spells as well as you can.

5) Be prepared, stay positive, be a team player. And have fun.

[Shifty]

Having a similar table once, I had an 'assistant GM' handle some of it, especially the admin.

[Pan]

I have always wanted to put togehter a big game like that. However I would never dream of 12 players 1 GM. I would have two tables same world. PCs could intermingle between quests. GMs could rotate. Would be a lot of fun.

[Shifty]

Which is (sort of) what happened with us. One party doing one thing, one party doing another, sometimes all of them co-locating. There was also continuous changes in party compositions as people moved between the parties depending on their own interests and needs...

Having non-static groupings made life pretty interesting.

When EVERYBODY was on the one crusade things got interesting as well, in a hard way :p

[Pan]

Shifty wrote:

Which is (sort of) what happened with us. One party doing one thing, one party doing another, sometimes all of them co-locating. There was also continuous changes in party compositions as people moved between the parties depending on their own interests and needs...

Having non-static groupings made life pretty interesting.

When EVERYBODY was on the one crusade things got interesting as well, in a hard way :p

oh man I'm jealous that sounds great.

[Shifty]

It was also a large headache some days! :p

[Scott_UAT]

Oh the 5 min turn is a max. We generally do like 1 min or less but 5 min is when the turn ends and you're done. That's even like debate over rules and whatnot.

I like the DM pre-rolling!

I am of the school of thought that if you are cheating, you're not playing the game. Might as well leave. We've been playing for 2.5 year together. I trust everyone.

We have actually have a projector screen and an initiative tracker up on it.

Has anyone tried running two battles at once? (1 GM, like pairs of players going at once)

I am leaning more and more towards the co/sub GM thing.

[Kolokotroni]

Rule #1 in a game that big, everyone pays attention. It can be really easy to get lost in side conversations or by phones or whatever when there are so many people taking turns.

the best way I know of to maintain this, is when someone's turn comes up, they must immediately state what they are doing. They dont have to resolve it immediately, but they must say 'I go to that guy and attack him' 'I shoot those two orcs', 'i cast fireball here *points*'. You then take however long it takes to resolve those actions, but the descision must be made right at the start of the turn and they stick with it. It forces people to pay attention during other peoples turns.

Also no opening books while its your turn. If you have to look something up on your turn you delay, simple as that.

[Scott_UAT]

Yeah. We have people at PCs in the room so we have a rule "no phones and if you are using the PC it better be for game". We have the SRDs open a lot of the time.

I like the idea of how to run the turn like that. Kind of "Tell us what you are doing, then you can figure out how to do it".

We actually have people go when someone is calculating their damage and whatnot.

[Calybos1]

Congratulations on garnering enough interest to now have two, or even three, table groups. Now you just need to go ahead and make the split.

[Brian Bachman]

Most I've ever done is ten in a prty and that was AD&D, which was less complicated to run (less rules, less player/GM options to choose from in combat and other scenarios, more GM determines what happens). I run for 7 now, and it was 8 previously. I probably wouldn't choose to do 12, but I think it is doable.

It requires more GM preparation and I would suggest a stronger GM disciplinary hand.

Preparation:
-- Have prepared tactics ahead of time for all encounters, including some contingencies.
-- Have an initiative board for large combats so you don't have to keep looking to see whose turn it is, also immediately note end of spells and other effects immediately on it.
-- Have your miniatures and other props pre-selected and ready to hand.
-- If possible have major encounter areas drawn out ahead of time as well on multiple battlemats
-- Look up all spells NPCs are likely to cast ahead of time, as well as any rules you aren't intimately familiar with that may come into play.
-- Prepare encounters carefully. Can't do single BBEG because of action economy, unless you make him so formidable that he is capable of killing a character or two each round. Need lots and lots of minions.

Discipline:
-- Strongly enforce need for players to be prepared with what they want to do before their turn arrives. If they aren't ready, they are doing nothing until they are (e.g. still looking up a spell or feat, going to the bathroom, texting their BFF, reading OOTS online, whatever). Losing a few actions like that usually ensures it won't happen often.
-- No rules disputes or lengthy rules searches during play. GM ruling is quick and final and it can be discussed later out of game if someone has serious heartburn with it. Recognize GM will make some mistakes, but that is better than a buzz-killing 30 minute rules debate/rules research project every session.
-- Respect other players turns by avoiding loud side conversations while it is someone else's turn.
-- Don't let other players (unless there is a truly lost newbie who needs help) tell or advise someone what their character should do (unless it is in character and would fit timewise, like a fighter yelling that he could use some healing). Everybody play their own character.

Optional:
-- Might want to discourage optimization. Creating challenging encounters for a 12 member party is hard enough, without it being a heavily optimized party.

[Scott_UAT]

It has proved quite challenging to make encounters. I generally have to set the CR 2-3 levels hire (min) and do some behind-the-scenes HP adjustment to make them able to be threat. I pit them against multiple opponents (when normally a group does one).

We have done some hardcore massive combats (like 150+ enemies) and they are a lot of fun.

A fun little ability I have thrown in a few times is that damage to a BBEG is shunted off onto minions. That way I can toss like an extra 20 minions at them and let them go to town on the BBEG without making his HP super-insane. It also makes the players feel like they have done something when the souls of three minions suddenly are ripped out of their body as a result of a critical hit.

@Calybos1
Unfortunately this is not a option as indicated in the opening post.

[Scott_UAT]

So we tried a few of the suggestions and sped up combat a lot last Friday! Thanks guys!

[Byrdology]

We have a 1min cap on turns and then you delay or ready an action.

I think you could split the party into 2 groups with two coordinating DMs and run from there. Set up scenarios with multiple objectives and let the players decide which group to join.

[Rom001]

Hey Scott,

Post on the forums what suggestions you used for your large group/convention! Please post both things that went well AND those that didn't go well.

I'm curious how your group works together.

Rom001

[Spook205]

Ah yes, the large party.

The action economy issue is the big one. I don't run with 12, but I run with 8 and the following are my own suggestions.

1.) Establish a quorum. A minimum number of players you can run with. Maybe establish understudies too so the party isn't suddenly cleric deprived.

2.) The strength of the group is actually with things like problem solving. Give environmental puzzles, social puzzles or the like.

3.) Don't start an optimization war. As earlier stated the issue is less balance for you (the DM always has the bigger guns), its that you don't want some of your party to 'fall behind' in the arms war.

4.) Know those rules on WBL and Encounter design? They're guidelines, not rules.

5.) Make encounters that involve events besides beating the crap out of things. The party might have to deal with 100 goblins attacking a village at level 7. The goblins are 0 threat to the party. They aren't 0 threat to the townsfolk the party needs to defend.

Similarly, the fire burning down the house might only be CR6, but its a lot more threatening to the 1st level experts living in the building.

6.) Embrace the slow pace. Use the opportunity to have 'talking is a free action' go off.

7.) For encoutner design, challenge ratings start falling apart past 6 players. I usually start with a CR +2, and then throw in enough bodies so the party is outnumbered or equalled.

How would a single player react to encountering 12 dudes a mere 2 levels beneath him? Yeah. Thats what happens to your monsters.

Say goodbye to solo threats.

Embrace mobility. Embrace escape. Embrace concentration of attacks.

[Lumiere Dawnbringer]

i played with a group of 12 players and an overcompensating DM. my advice from experience.

combat is going to be slow, and is going to take up the majority of a session. having 1 combat encounter of extreme length per session is best.

remember to double up on roles. try not to make the mistake of going without a healer and don't go without an arcane caster. i recommend at least 2 of each in a 12 person party.

some level of independence is to be needed, even if you can't quite heal yourself, you can at least provide the resources to allow an ally to buff you. such as buying pearls of power to benefit from key buffs.

[Charlie Bell]

I got nothing for you other than split the group. 12 is about 6 past my max upper limit for the game to still be fun.

[Lumiere Dawnbringer]

My Advice

Add an Extra 2 hours for finalization, preparation and resolution to each session

Tell each player to keep a minimum of 3 premade level appropriate backup characters at all times

use either point buy or static arrays

either learn to whip up partially constructed homebrewed improvised creatures on the fly or keep a series of easily accessible pregenerated NPCs of varying level ranges

save leveling up for between sessions

dissallow rules lawyering, resolve the issue between sessions via phone or email

force each player to create or purchase easily accessible cards for spells, feats, items or manuevers that haven;t memorized

force players to keep copies of basic statistics of thier familiars, pets, or commonly used summons

put a 5 minute time limit on turns and force players to roll their dice and calculate between turns.

[roguerouge]

I've done this with a classroom full of 6th-8th graders. It can work. You need to make sure that everyone can see the tactical mat. You need to have very clearly defined characters given the very small amount of screen time they're going to have: think Avengers. For once, you're fine with splitting the party as it actually makes things easier and more cinematic, as you can do parallel montage.

[Silentman73]

I don't envy the GM who runs a game with this many players. Our group was at 8 players, and we just had to reduce by one to make things tenable for our GM. It wasn't just a game management issue, it was a space issue: our apartment only holds so many people.

The dynamic changes when you have a large number of players. The GM has to start playing with numbers to keep things challenging on a mechanical level, and player "chatter" during the session has to be managed/clamped-down-on a lot more.

Encourage each player to think of what their character is doing next the instant their action is finished for that round. Make sure they've worked out their math so they can make their roll and immediately tell you its result. If they're a spellcaster, make sure they've worked out all the appropriate math for that. Give bonus XP at the end of each session to any player who was prepared the instant their turn came up.

Make each player the "expert" on their class' rules. The one playing the Wizard should know everything about metamagic feats, item creation feats, how to calculate saving throws against spells, how to deal with spell resistance, caster checks, Knowledge checks, and what a spell realistically can and can't do. The more responsibility players have for their character, the less the GM has to manage in the moment. If they do something that doesn't seem right, let it fly for the moment, and talk with them about it after the session is over (or through email during the week if you have a group where everyone splits when the session is finished).

Keep house rules to a bare minimum. They're awesome to have (when they're fun...), but they require a lot more effort from the GM to adjudicate, as a player(s) will inevitably find a way to do something the GM didn't anticipate when they created the rule.

Put a small timer on the table (digital works best). Click it when a new player's turn starts. Set a soft cap for their action; if they don't meet it, go to another player's action. Once that's concluded return to the first player, and if they haven't made a decision on an action yet, they lose that turn.

[CWheezy]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

2) Players need to accept that there is not a perfect action each round.

I would like to point out that this is objectively false, but written as "There is a not a perfect action you can find within a reasonable time" is acceptable

[Reecy]

Well from experience I have run 16 players at once games and they were not only fun and entertaining to me, but they developed their own little factions.

I even had one group doing combat another group was bartering in a town while he misfit group was committing felonies in a church.

I would be happy to give you guys my suggestions and how things worked out.

[Scott_UAT]

Rom001 wrote:

Hey Scott,

Post on the forums what suggestions you used for your large group/convention! Please post both things that went well AND those that didn't go well.

I'm curious how your group works together.

Rom001

Here is our draft of rules: Link