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Keep in mind that if the player has the animal companion class feature, then their first animal companion comes fully trained.
Wait, it does? This is news to me. I knew about the bonus tricks, but otherwise I thought druids and such had to teach most of their tricks the hard way. Where is that written?
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I don't think I'm misreading the rules. Check out the chart of available animals in Ultimate Equipment. .....
The issue here is not Ultimate Equipment but Animal Archive. Both a combat trained tiger at 500 gp or combat trained Lion at 300 gp are there and legal - though I would suggest people bringing the animal archive and section of additional resources to GM to prove it.
It does make a Domain Druid a little more interesting at low levels, as they can easily have Handle Animal and no animal companion. Likewise many rangers.
Even if the bison costs are changed, 150 gp gets one a combat trained riding boar.
That the book says that both Lions and Tigers are 'easily ridden' is a little disturbing as well.
GMs should also make sure the person paid for an exotic saddle, and if they bard the animals, take into account penalties to attack and the high cost.
Also GMs should remember, that unless the animal has the exclusive trick, the PC is not the only one who can command the animal. Game Writers who give their bad guys Handle Animal could cause some confusion in battle.
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Are these animals considered always available to buy or do they need 5 PP?
Any of them seem to be a great "consumable" to buy at level 2 if you have any animal handling skill at all.
A single combat trained Bison or Tiger will trivialise encounters at subtier 1-2 as will multiple combat trained Boars.
If there is more than one Tiger/Bison at the table (with different PCs) then they will also trivialise subtier 4-5 encounters and possibly above.
I expect to have to enforce the only one combat pet rule, and will pack more mundane figures for table use such as Lions, Tigers and Bison.
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This is just a hunch, but when these kinds of rules gaps have opened in the past, the campaign leadership has stepped in and closed them.
Paizo is in the middle of its crazy Gen-Con crunch. Sure. So the response might be delayed a couple days. But if you wanted to exploit the "buy a trained tiger" gimmick, I'd recommend doing so this weekend rather than waiting till May.
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I am hoping that some player tries this at my table.
The animal is an NPC controlled by the GM, with the player getting to make handle animal rolls (I don't want to reopen the Animal Companion discussion, but in my mind a purchased animal CLEARLY falls into this category).
So, your bison goes into the dungeon. Oops. Scary undead. Bison panics. "Accidentally" tramples PC as it runs away from the scary undead.
Problem solved.
As far as I can see the above is totally within my rights as a GM.
Being the softy that I am, I'd actually warn the player in advance of the likely consequences. And might even roll dice to determine what the animal did as opposed to just using pure GM fiat.
If he still wants to bring his tiger or bison that is fine with me.
Even in PFS it really isn't wise to try and beat the GM with some obviously hosey tactic. We have lots of cards up our sleeves if we want to play them. Legal ones like above, focus firing, coup de Gracing, etc. And I've heard rumours that some GMs "accidentally" make mistakes that end up killing a character.
I find the above to be somewhat offensive, and I fear I would have to leave your table if you did that to someone when I was playing for you.I am hoping that some player tries this at my table.
The animal is an NPC controlled by the GM, with the player getting to make handle animal rolls (I don't want to reopen the Animal Companion discussion, but in my mind a purchased animal CLEARLY falls into this category).
So, your bison goes into the dungeon. Oops. Scary undead. Bison panics. "Accidentally" tramples PC as it runs away from the scary undead.
Problem solved.
As far as I can see the above is totally within my rights as a GM.
Being the softy that I am, I'd actually warn the player in advance of the likely consequences. And might even roll dice to determine what the animal did as opposed to just using pure GM fiat.
If he still wants to bring his tiger or bison that is fine with me.
Even in PFS it really isn't wise to try and beat the GM with some obviously hosey tactic. We have lots of cards up our sleeves if we want to play them. Legal ones like above, focus firing, coup de Gracing, etc. And I've heard rumours that some GMs "accidentally" make mistakes that end up killing a character.
/takes notes
BTW, Adam, when I'm running a table and someone shows up with a leopard like that, the answer is "LOL no, and you can report that to the Venture-Captain after we're done here". But the rules do support it.... and I totally would, because this is organized play, and that's not your call. Go start a home game if you want to be able to ignore rules.
Patrick Harris @ SD, the poster, pupsocket retracted their statement soon after. Its obvious they were just blowing some steam.
Eyestalks. Crove's Asylum. Experimental Medicine.
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I am hoping that some player tries this at my table.
I find the above to be somewhat offensive, and I fear I would have to leave your table if you did that to someone when I was playing for you.
Thank you for at least saying you would "...actually warn the player in advance of the likely consequences."
I was being a little flippant. I was also assuming that the conversation had sort of gone something like the following already:
Player: By the way, I'm bringing my trained Bison into First Steps 2
Me : Uh, that is insanely overpowered and will ruin the game. Please don't do that.
Player: But its legal
Me: So, let me get this right. You want to bring in a semi trained bison into the dungeon. You DO realize that it is a NPC that I control? And that it will probably panic if it sees things like undead, gets hit by various magics, etc?
Player: I've got Handle Animal at +9
Me: Ok. Don't say I didn't warn you.
I'll stand by what I said. Bringing a moderately trained animal into a scary spooky place is just asking for trouble. That isn't my playing silly games, that is my enforcing a semblance of reality on the situation. Heck, as a recent thread showed, some GMs think that level of control should be applied to Animal Companions (animals that love the character, are insanely well trained, and often quite intelligent).
I also find it impossible to imagine any player trying to pull this who wasn't either quite inexperienced or a total munchkin. I'd only act like this with the munchkin.
I don't think I'm misreading the rules. Check out the chart of available animals in Ultimate Equipment. There are some that have brackets indicating they have a training package, and the hunting cat doesn't have those. Therefore, no tricks.
I wouldn't consider that conclusive. There's too much inconsistency on the table. Notice that the Guard and Hunting Animals section of the chart includes the Axe beak but doesn't give it a trained option - in fact, none of the animals on that chart do, yet both the Axe beak and Guard dog entries include combat training references (albeit the axe beak's is in its own header only).
In fact, only the mounts have combat trained options listed for them, which makes sense because you might have a war dire bat or just a riding dire bat. It's only there that the Axe beak is called out as being combat trained - there is no non-combat option (other than as an egg, which is weird enough since it's obviously not a mount at that stage).
I think a more reasonable assumption to draw is that the Guard and Hunting Animals table assumes the animals are capable of fulfilling the roles for which they are listed for purchase.
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It's my understanding that a combat trained animal is trained in the combat general purpose, which includes the 6 tricks that are listed in combat training. To those that suggest the creature would run away from undead, does the undead creature possess unnatural aura? Then i'm pretty sure it would have no other effect except that the creature cant attack the undead monster as it doesnt possess the attack anything trick it only can attack humanoids and animals.
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I am hoping that some player tries this at my table.
The animal is an NPC controlled by the GM, with the player getting to make handle animal rolls (I don't want to reopen the Animal Companion discussion, but in my mind a purchased animal CLEARLY falls into this category).
So, your bison goes into the dungeon. Oops. Scary undead. Bison panics. "Accidentally" tramples PC as it runs away from the scary undead.
Problem solved.
As far as I can see the above is totally within my rights as a GM.
Being the softy that I am, I'd actually warn the player in advance of the likely consequences. And might even roll dice to determine what the animal did as opposed to just using pure GM fiat.
If he still wants to bring his tiger or bison that is fine with me.
Even in PFS it really isn't wise to try and beat the GM with some obviously hosey tactic. We have lots of cards up our sleeves if we want to play them. Legal ones like above, focus firing, coup de Gracing, etc. And I've heard rumours that some GMs "accidentally" make mistakes that end up killing a character.
I've heard that people have their characters restored when clicking "Report a problem with this session" after playing with GMs that behave as you have just described. You do not have the right to target a player just because you don't like their build. I just GM'd a game the other day and somebody was running a monk that specialized in grappling. Each encounter he would grapple the biggest baddest guy, then tie him up. His DC to break was pretty much impossible for the bad guys to escape as this was level 1. This trivialized some encounters, but I can think of a nice handful of scenarios that a build like that wouldn't be very effective. Bison and Tigers are Large creatures, so they won't be usable in every scenario, particularly caves and sewers with 5 foot hallways.
Just because people have effective builds doesn't mean they deserve poor treatment by a spiteful GM.
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paul, what makes a purchased animal "semi-trained"? What would it take for a normal character to train it?
Would you do the same thing with a dog or a pony?
The second attack trick is the main thing.
Would I handle a dog or pony the same way? Sure. A dog that doesn't have the second attack trick is quite possibly going to freak out at undead. Similarly, a horse or pony might rear and require a ride check. The biggest difference is that a freaked out pony isn't particularly dangerous unless you get in its way as it tries to run.
There is a huge difference between the way that I'd treat an Animal Companion and a purchased animal. An AC is, under almost all circumstances, under the players control at my table. A purchased animal is under my control. So tbey'll be quite different in how effective they are.
For the record, this is all theoretical on my part. I think that I've killed only 2 PCs in my career as a PFS GM. And neither were remotely caused by my picking on a character. If anything, my problem is that I'm too kind to the players as opposed to too cruel.
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Hello... Lemtwist Bratham Mallentwine Flannelfoot Smyth Olgen Jeebs Nathers Bingham the Third here. (call me "3")
I am at my ninth riding dog in my adventuring career. I use them mostly for a mount, as I am small and slow. But some of my earlier experiences had Cuddles, Shanks, Meathead and Nick... well, not Nick so much, but first three had some good fights before they were... well...
Actually, Cuddles is in an old dog's home, as it was cheaper to buy a new dog than to cure both diseases...
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Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount(DC 10): If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
So long as you have a +9 to your Ride skill, and your mount has the Attack trick (and for certain encounters the Attack Any Target upgrade), and you have a +11 Handle Animal modifier, and you're riding your animal companion rather than a purchased animal, you should be fine.
Would it be fun to encounter someone with a Bison riding animal? You bet!
I agree. My only caveat is that I think that the trained animals in question here (e.g. leopards, tigers, elephants) are too cheap. Is PFS the ideal place to fix that? Probably not, but there is precedent with the elephant ruling.
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I see no problem with combat trained animals being cheap for the following reasons:
1. It requires a move action to direct the animal
2. It's a free action to direct a mount but you are subject to the same attacks it would be
3. The animal will only attack humanoids, giants, and other animals (it doesn't possess the attack anything trick) tip: Outsiders aren't humanoids
4. If something has unnatural aura, your animal isn't going to go anywhere near it. (wraiths and other creepy things have it)
5. They are large creatures, so as soon as you go underground, the chances of them being useful drops significantly (even if you buy a medium mount for a small pathfinder)
6. Enemies with handle animal can probably ruin your day if you don't have the exclusive trick (purchased combat trained animals don't)
I see no problem with combat trained animals being cheap for the following reasons: [etc.]
When I say "cheap", I mean the prices in Ultimate Equipment and Animal Archive are cheap compared to other sources of getting sidekicks (e.g. figurines of wondrous power, planar ally spells, Bestiary creatures, etc.). For instance, according to the Bestiary 2, a trained CR 2 hippogriff would cost 5,000 gp. That's 5 times as much as a CR 7 elephant, and 11 times as much as a trained CR 2 dire bat.
When I say "cheap", I mean the prices in Ultimate Equipment and Animal Archive are cheap compared to other sources of getting sidekicks (e.g. figurines of wondrous power, planar ally spells, Bestiary creatures, etc.). For instance, according to the Bestiary 2, a trained CR 2 hippogriff would cost 5,000 gp. That's 5 times as much as a CR 7 elephant, and 11 times as much as a trained CR 2 dire bat.
For what it's worth, the hippogriff's price in the Ultimate Equipment Guide is still 5000 gp. So I don't think they've determined the prices on elephants and dire bats without being reminded of the hippogriff price.
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Personally, I decide I want an animal for my character before I look at the stats for it. For example, I decided a Yak mount would be neat for my Half-Orc, and I bought it.
Then I looked up the stats and almost swallowed my tongue. Naturally it will be useless for 95% of all encounters (maybe 90% after it is combat trained), but on the rare occasion where I have the opportunity to hurl myself, my double-axe, and a ton-and-a-half of enraged meat at someone because they decided to engage the party across an open field, I'm going to damn well do it, and it is going to be awesome, and that is the point.
The rest of the time it is a horse that costs more to stable and looks really cool.
So I don't think they've determined the prices on elephants and dire bats without being reminded of the hippogriff price.
That doesn't mean that those prices are appropriate, though. (They aren't, IMO, and I suspect the person who banned elephants from PFS would feel the same way.)
so, we are going to discuss the price structure in PFS?
All I'm saying is that if the Adventurer's Armory had priced an elephant at 100,000 gp, then I guarantee it wouldn't have banned for PFS play.
(See also: potions made by rangers and paladins.)
if an elephant was priced at 17,000 gp I could easily see PCs buying it... wait, let me check.
Yeap! here we go... 17,000 gp (marble elephant)
I don't understand -- Are you agreeing with me that 17,000 gp is more appropriate than 1,000 gp? Or are you making some other point that I'm missing?
There's nothing special about "100,000 gp" in my comment. I was just trying to say that the only reason that the elephant was banned from PFS play is because of price because you can easily think of a price point where buying an elephant wouldn't be a problem; whether that's 100,000 gp or 17,000 gp or some other value is left as an exercise to the reader, but it sure isn't 1,000 gp.
so, it looks to me like your PC can get an elephant, it just costs 17K.
Absolutely, I understood that part.
and mostly my post was a (poor) attempt at humor.
So it has nothing to with your later comment "I do not beleave price is a factor in access (other than for fame etc)"? That's what confused me.
Just trying to lighten the mood, the board has been real negitive lately (it seems to me).
Personally I'm trying to be constructive, not negative. YMMV.
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Being the softy that I am, I'd actually warn the player in advance of the likely consequences. And might even roll dice to determine what the animal did as opposed to just using pure GM fiat.
Cool, just so we know, anything in the rules that you decide you don't like will ensure the player is punished, and in the most arbitrary and punitive way possible.
Saying you would 'warn the player' has all the same legitimacy of saying something like 'no offence, BUT...', or 'I am no racist, BUT...' - you are predetermining an outcome, and the only way out for the player is to comply with what you want or get hosed, regardless of any skill or ability they might have, regardless of what the RAW says.
How about sticking to RAW and beong less adversarial to the legitimate choices made by players within the continually balanced rules of the PFS system?
When you have 5 stars next to your name and 'Lead PFS Guru' as your title, please feel free to let your wildest whims and fancies flow free...
Until then I can only suggest Nosig nailed it above:
"I like to play WITH people, not AGAINST them".
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I see you dislike people using written material legallySo tell me, wisest of wise men: Should tier 1-2 scenarios assume that everyone brings a leopard? That no-one brings one? Should all scenarios have animal-removing obstacles?While I believe anyone can see the balance issues here, balance is not the job of a table GM to enforce or tweak rules to fit. That is upto the campaign management (who i'm sure will errata this at some point).
While in home brew campaigns you can add/remove rules as you see fit, that is not the case of PFS scenarios. One of the core principles of PFS play is that players and GM's can expect consistant rules where ever they go.
Disregarding them is just demonstrating a beligerant approach and completely against the principles of PFS play.
As a GM, all you can ensure is that the player using such a creature has a purchased copy of the appropriate resource with them.
I know this is back aways, but why do people think rules make balance?
90% of the difficulty for any encounter is completely on the GM regardless of how well or poorly they stick to rules, DCs being the only exception.
Balance comes from how each individual plays, a smart player who uses good tactics will knock the socks off a higher level player who tries to play "hulk smash," everytime. It isn't the rules that balance play, the rules are a supplement to make playing easier, they are nothing more then that.
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So the answer is you need handle animal in order to get a mount to attack while you are riding it?So long as you have a +9 to your Ride skill, and your mount has the Attack trick (and for certain encounters the Attack Any Target upgrade), and you have a +11 Handle Animal modifier, and you're riding your animal companion rather than a purchased animal, you should be fine.
1) you can use the defend trick to have it going on auto pilot. Since you and it are in the same spot, it will go after anything you do
2) its a damned combat trained warhorse. It hits things. Its a weapon in its own right, thats what its for.
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Just adding my two coppers.
I don't get all the fuss. If it is in the rules, then by all means. Everyone has a different playstyle. If the group enjoys having Bronco Bison make hoof patties out of their foes (assuming all checks are made, etc.) fine.
Is making an encounter easy illegal? My litmus test when GMing is "Is the party having fun?". If they are, then I'd roll with it.
I'd venture to say that this is getting more bang for your buck (well no war-deer so far as I know, yet) which falls under optimization. It's no different than choosing better gear/spells based on return on investment. The players can choose to do it, or not.
Fair enough. However, as a GM and a player, I would be reluctant to accept a bison into the party in a low-level game for the very reason you've stated: "Is the party having fun?"
As a player, I don't find it fun to have someone show up and curbstomp every encounter. As a GM, I don't think people have fun when someone shows up with an exploit such as this — yes, a CR 4 creature for 75 gp is an exploit that will hopefully be remedied soon.
I'm not going to try to turn the monstrosity on the player that's ruining things for everyone else. I will, however, pick up the enemy they're about to attack before they roll and say "Good job, you killed it. Let's move on."