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The forced study of Calculus in school is stupid. No human ever needs to know
such things to live a happy productive life.
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I'd clarify that the WAY it's taught is generally stupid, because it leaves people unaware of what calculus actually is and can actually be used for. Calculus is all about rates of change. Teaching it as such underlines that life and the universe aren't just static things that sit around and wait patiently for us to decide to notice them. Things happen whether we watch them or not, and it's often VERY useful to know the ways in which they're changing, before they bite you in the ass.
If people actually knew what they could do with it, it would be useful for managers, financiers, shopkeepers, farmers, military leaders -- not just mathematicians and scientists. Instead, it's taught as if it were some kind of arcane symbology with no relation to real stuff, so people assume it has no real uses.
All that said, I'm a professional hydrogeologist. I need calculus. Please don't get rid of it!
I'm sure someone needs it, but I for the life of me can't see why they insist that most people need it.
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I'm sure someone needs it, but I for the life of me can't see why they insist that most people need it.
I'm a former math teacher, at the level of 7th grade and up, and I couldn't agree with this statement more. Frankly, making people take anything beyond Algebra I is a bit ridiculous, as that's the highest level of math that most people will really ever need in their life.
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I still maintain that "need" is different from "potentially find useful."
My first career was as a high school teacher; most of my 9th graders couldn't answer "what's 1 minus 10" -- with a calculator or without.
Sure, they don't NEED to be able to subtract simple numbers, if we just want them to be good little wage slaves on a checkout somewhere, but I think it would be nice if some people had the chance to learn more than that.
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I'm sure someone needs it, but I for the life of me can't see why they insist that most people need it.I'm a former math teacher, at the level of 7th grade and up, and I couldn't agree with this statement more. Frankly, making people take anything beyond Algebra I is a bit ridiculous, as that's the highest level of math that most people will really ever need in their life.
I'm a former 7th grader and am happy that the only real choice I had was whether I needed shop/home economics/music.
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I'll also admit that my opinion might have something to do with trying to come up with an answer to "When will I ever use this in real life?" from one of my Trigonometry students that would be honest, while not sounding like I was saying that education was a waste.
A moot point, since I quit later in the year to join the Air Force after 9/11.
I'll also admit that my opinion might have something to do with trying to come up with an answer to "When will I ever use this in real life?" from one of my Trigonometry students that would be honest, while not sounding like I was saying that education was a waste.
Heh. Teaching Earth Science, I was infamous for my "What good is this in real life?" guarantee. If I couldn't come up with a real-life application on the spot, they got a free pass on every question related to the topic on the next test. No one ever got that free pass. Granted, that sort of a thing is a lot easier to do for Earth Science than it is for, say, ancient history.
My students would have had much better grades if I had made that guarantee about trigonometry. :P
Are you an enlistee, then? My old naval officer friends used to use trig constantly -- one of them ended up teaching a class in it after he retired from the service.
Calculus is extremely important to a number of different fields. The problem with it in an academic setting is it's not presented in any kind of context. The integral or "area under the curve" has no meaning. I despised it in college. But, as a research ecologist, I need it.
What do you use it for, and could an excel program spit out the same answer?
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What do you use it for, and could an excel program spit out the same answer?
As an example, I used it after the tsunami in Sri Lanka, to estimate when the salinty in the wells would be low enough for the water to be potable again -- drinking water supplies were a major issue then. And, no, Excel can't do that at all -- because solving the problem is the easy part; setting it up is FAR more difficult. You can't GET an answer if you can't even translate the question into Calculus to begin with.
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So where do we draw the line?
In my job I deal with illiterate individuals all the time (far from a majority but enough to be a percentage). These people manage to make their way in life, many of them holding down jobs, able to get by with verbal instruction. While this may be an extreme example, the fact is their's a precedent.
Every skill we manage to teach our children in school is another set of doors opened to them for their future. I admit, I don't use calculus in my job. Heck, I've probably forgotten most of it. But I'm still glad I learned it, knowing that if I did go into a field it was required I could have.
On that note, I recently heard another rumor from my hometown that history was discussed being cut from elementary schools. After all, people don't use it.
On that note, I recently heard another rumor from my hometown that history was discussed being cut from elementary schools. After all, people don't use it.
My response to that would be to make history useful and relevant by
1) teaching history, not a shared cultural mythology of the brave intrepid American spirit as we discover america, tame the west, and save the world from the nazi menace!
2) Cutting out some of the useless details and memorizing dates
3) getting past the civil war for once so that the history being taught has some relevance on whats happening in the world today.
I don't know how to make calculus useful, because despite taking it twice I haven't seen it used in a word problem or even touched on an application for it. This random set of numbers and letters is put through a random process to become that series of numbers and letters.
I could not, for the life of me, conduct my research without Calculus. As Kirth aptly pointed out, it is extremely useful in allowing one to predict the behavior of systems in regards to change. The impression most people get from it probably originates from the way it is taught.
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I think it's real useful.
I just suck at it, and didn't understand it worth a s%&+.
I think, though, that if you can do it then go for it.
History was more of my forte, because it seemed like a really awesome rpg campaign world being detailed for me.
What they needed to do is what happened for me in college: the Professor essentially in the first day's lecture told us not to take notes and he set up the whole entire world stage ending with the Declaration of Independence, putting the whole thing into context.
You don't really need any of this education, just some flint and spears and fire and stuff, and a weird guy who will shake fetish dolls over your pregnant wife's belly to ward off evil spirits.
Most people wont run a marathon, but it's nonetheless good to make kids attend sports days.
I think calculus is about mental training - what is taught isnt terribly important, but the discipline, abstract thinking, pattern recognition and mental agility that maths gives you is of value. I wouldnt have any problem teaching some other introductory higher maths instead (I think probability should be compulsory for pre-teens, as it happens) - but teaching people only those mathematical tools they're probably going to need later in life misses the point of teaching maths, in my view.
I think calculus is about mental training - what is taught isnt terribly important, but the discipline, abstract thinking, pattern recognition and mental agility that maths gives you is of value.
None of this actually happens the way its being taught. You learn to mindlessly turn x group of numbers into Y group of numbers without learning what it is you're doing or why you're doing it.
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I love math, so I took out a book on calculus and started reading in junior high school. I didn't understand it very well, but I wanted to. so I might be an outlier here.
But I get really frustrated when I've taught other people math, how the books present things.
My mom had a coworker who was going for a degree after work. She was terrified of math. she was taking an algebra course and needed help.
This woman was the head of the kitchen for a nursing home. She regularly planned meals for large numbers of people. She was instinctively doing algebra all the time to handle the changing number of people that wanted meal A vs. meal B.
But when she ran into algebra in the textbook for her online course, she couldn't see the real world applicaiton.
One session we were going tackle positive and negative numbers. Addition, subtracktion, multiplication and division of negative and positive numbers.
For some absolutely stupid and unfathomable reason, the book decided to use temperature to explain this. I suppose it is possible that someone might use negative and positive numbers with additon and subtraction in relation to temperature, but really, there's no way to conceptualize a real world usage for multiplication and division.
She was an adult, living day to day in the real world. I used money as a much better conceptual tool for this lesson. if you owe 5 people $10, that's 5 x -10 = -50 ($50 you owe). If a friend pays for a car rental that 4 of you then use, if you all agree to pay an equal share and car rental cost $160, then how much do you owe? (-160/4)
why the heck would the book be adding negative temperature, or whatever? Who does that? Stupid!
I know people whined and complained in school about story problems, but that's really something I think every calss should address up front:
"Here's a real world issue. HEre's the numbers. Can you find the answer to this question? Guess what - by the end of the Chapter / Semester / year, you will be able to answer this real world question using the math you've learned here today."
How hard is, that, really?!?
I think calculus is about mental training - what is taught isnt terribly important, but the discipline, abstract thinking, pattern recognition and mental agility that maths gives you is of value.None of this actually happens the way its being taught. You learn to mindlessly turn x group of numbers into Y group of numbers without learning what it is you're doing or why you're doing it.
You need to memorise your times tables too, a pretty mindless exercise in itself which pays dividends later. The training isn't the endpoint and I claim (without evidence) that those who have slogged through calculus and then given it up as useless/irrelevant to them are nonetheless better at those things I cited than they would otherwise have been.
Poor teaching can always be improved, sure. But I think that's a separate issue.
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I always hated math and begrudged being forced to take anything above algebra. To this day Trigonometry is my hobgoblin.
Until I took Calculus this semester. It's one of the most eye-opening classes I've ever had. It's like being able to see the matrix!
Example: revelation I had today.
2(pi)r is the formula for the circumference of a circle.
pir^2 is the formula for the area.
The latter is just the antiderivative of the former!!
/mind blown
Like...integration is like looking at stuff from superposition.
I think calculus is about mental training - what is taught isnt terribly important, but the discipline, abstract thinking, pattern recognition and mental agility that maths gives you is of value.None of this actually happens the way its being taught. You learn to mindlessly turn x group of numbers into Y group of numbers without learning what it is you're doing or why you're doing it.
I dunno dude. When was the last time you took a calc class?
I'm taking one right now and it's online. There are no lectures, just problem sets with little helper notes. There's no instructor bias and I see all those things in it.
On that note, I recently heard another rumor from my hometown that history was discussed being cut from elementary schools. After all, people don't use it.
From what I understand, in Florida, they don't have to teach US history before 1945 or any world history.
Someone said something about trigonometry. My mind never grasped that for some reason, no matter how much I tried to study it.
What do you use it for, and could an excel program spit out the same answer?
Calculus is extremely important to a number of different fields. The problem with it in an academic setting is it's not presented in any kind of context. The integral or "area under the curve" has no meaning. I despised it in college. But, as a research ecologist, I need it.
If you don't understand what the excel program does, you can't double-check it.
If you don't double-check the excel program, there may be undetected errors in it.
If there are undetected errors, your results may be embarassingly incorrect.
.... To witness this, look at the recent article about the influential economics article that turned out to be 100% wrong and helped to trash the world economy.
One session we were going tackle positive and negative numbers. Addition, subtracktion, multiplication and division of negative and positive numbers.
For some absolutely stupid and unfathomable reason, the book decided to use temperature to explain this. I suppose it is possible that someone might use negative and positive numbers with additon and subtraction in relation to temperature, but really, there's no way to conceptualize a real world usage for multiplication and division.
She was an adult, living day to day in the real world. I used money as a much better conceptual tool for this lesson. if you owe 5 people $10, that's 5 x -10 = -50 ($50 you owe). If a friend pays for a car rental that 4 of you then use, if you all agree to pay an equal share and car rental cost $160, then how much do you owe? (-160/4)
why the heck would the book be adding negative temperature, or whatever?
Because a lot of people don't understand that -$10 is a real amount of money. Even accountants don't use that formulation, which is why a ten dollar debt is written as ($10), often in a different colored ink.
Everyone understands that -5 is just as valid a temperature as 0 or 25. Making that connection, that debts are negative money and losses are negative gains, is one of the big things that needs to be taught. Can you think of another situation other than temperature where you see actual negative numbers in common practice?
Can you think of another situation other than temperature where you see actual negative numbers in common practice?
How fast NYC traffic moves, light-to-light.
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What do you use it for, and could an excel program spit out the same answer?
Calculus is extremely important to a number of different fields. The problem with it in an academic setting is it's not presented in any kind of context. The integral or "area under the curve" has no meaning. I despised it in college. But, as a research ecologist, I need it.
There's this brilliant new invention called a calculator. This is how it works:
1) The calculator has buttons representing the digits of the decimal counting methods, which are: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
2) other buttons represent any kind of interaction between numbers that you can think of, and many that you are probably nor even familiar with. Simple examples are multiplaction and summation.
3) The calculator has a screen. Whenever you press a button, an icon of matching appearance and meaning appears on the screen.
4) There's a unique button on the calculator, marked "=". In less than a blink of the eye after pressing it, the calculation currently presented on the screen will disappear and be replaced with it's result.
I would like to assure you that calcualtors never make mistakes, which makes them very reliable. Also, as you can understand from the brief explenation above, they are also very simple to use. A child could be taught to use them in a couple of hours. Than, take maybe a hundred more hours to teach the child the most basic principles of numbers (what are numbers, what is summation, etc.).
There you have it, eveything a child really ever needs to get along in life. No need for actualy learning HOW to make these calculations, or when to apply them, right?...
First off, let me say I didn't mean to offend you, I was just attempting to illustrate my point in an amusing way. If you are offended, say so and I will edit my post to be less tounge-in-cheek.
Calculus is not useless at all. Just the fact that you are not going to apply the knowledge you garnered to solve any specific situation in life dosen't make that knowledge "useless". I actualy oppose the very notion that there's such a thing as "useless" theoretical knowledge. I can understand you don't find it interesting, or have no desire to know it. But theoretical knowledge is about expending your thought process to include ever more complex ideas. Calculus CERTAINLY opens a door to a perspective most people lack. When taught properly, calculus is about taking some ideas to a very abstract form and toying around with them. I can't even begin to describe the sense of awe and wonder I felt when I learned that the Pythagorean theorem is about much more than triangles - that you can apply it to any sort of abstract "vector" you define in any sort of vectorial space that has an "inner product", which is in itself a generalazation of the idea of multiplaction.
From your posts in this thread I gather you never really got calculus, which leads to the not suprising outcome of you not liking it. In large part this seems to be the fault of whoever is teaching you, because let me tell you, "This random set of numbers and letters is put through a random process to become that series of numbers and letters." is not an accurate description of calculus. Not at all.
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Because a lot of people don't understand that -$10 is a real amount of money. Even accountants don't use that formulation, which is why a ten dollar debt is written as ($10), often in a different colored ink.
Everyone understands that -5 is just as valid a temperature as 0 or 25. Making that connection, that debts are negative money and losses are negative gains, is one of the big things that needs to be taught. Can you think of another situation other than temperature where you see actual negative numbers in common practice?
Okay, seriously, is there any way you can think of that makes sense to introduce multiplication or division with negative temperatures?
One?
I can't. I can't at all.
Sure, accountants use notation ($10) <-- red, or whatever, but it's very simple, conceptually, to understand that that equals -$10. The math is indistinguishable because it's the same thing. I can't think of any adult that deals with money on a real basis who can't understand that owing $10 can be thought of as negative $10. If I run into someone who can't understand that concept pretty much upon its introduction to them, I wonder if they have no concept of money at all, or have serious other developmental handicaps. And that very simple concept leads to a very easy to understand, instantly graspable way to talk about not only addition and subtraction of negative numbers, but multiplication and division.
In fact, maybe it's the weird disconnect I can barely conceive of that subtraction is somehow different from or simpler than adding a negative that is the issue. Maybe a better introduction that it's just a difference in notation would make things click better for people.
If you always use the Kevlin scale, you'll never have a negative temperature.
Funny story: As a chemist, I use Celcius for all temps at work. It was weird as heck when the refrigerator repair guy said my freezer should get down to zero. My immediate thought was, yeah, that's the problem, things aren't freezing as well as they should . . . . Stupid Farenheit.
I don't see a point to negative tempertures in first place use kelvins. Although an intuitve understanding of what increasing and concavity is sure helps and feel like people need to understand that. Also calculus is needed to understand continuous random variables. Helping understand what acceleration is and physics. I think the people that say math is useless is just an excuse and never try to use it and then complain it is useless so they do not have to learn it when to do not want to.
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I always hated math and begrudged being forced to take anything above algebra. To this day Trigonometry is my hobgoblin.
Until I took Calculus this semester. It's one of the most eye-opening classes I've ever had. It's like being able to see the matrix!
Example: revelation I had today.
2(pi)r is the formula for the circumference of a circle.
pir^2 is the formula for the area.
The latter is just the antiderivative of the former!!
/mind blownLike...integration is like looking at stuff from superposition.
Wanna have your mind blown? just realised a couple of days ago that it is IMPOSSIBLE to draw a circle that has both a rational radius and a rational circumference, given that the formula that ties the two togather has pi in it. Not calculus, I know, but really cool, as well.
This thread makes my nipples hard. I have gained a reputation on these messageboards for hating a significant amount of things, but it is ny hatred of mathematics that stands head and shoulders above them all. I started hating math in the 4th grade and never looked back. While occasionally useful, i find that the bulk of math taught in school exists solely for vanity's sake and to further encourage the development of the two societies that develop around math and reading respectively. I would prefer it if math education on a compulsory level stopped around late algebra and everything beyond was an elective. There is so much math being taught that is utterly unneccessary in day to day life for the vast majority of people it isn't funny. I have yet
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There are also negative elevations if you live below sea level.
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Seriously, this is such a stupid, infected meme. Maths is not food, clothes or shelter, so of course most people don't NEED it. Neither do we NEED mobile phones, music, religion, history, chemistry, philosophy, political science, politics, or ANY SODDING SUBJECT EVER TAUGHT IN A BLOODY SCHOOL, EVER.
Fact: We don't teach our children things because they NEED them. We teach them things to give them options beyond wage slavery and regular meals. If you can't handle that, rethink your opinions and get back when you have grasped it.
Maths is at the foundation of almost every natural scientific subject ever studied. It is a cornerstone of every single way of doing business. It is absolutely vital for getting any computer program to work. It reaches through music, art, architecture. The very idea of having an advanced society without maths is laughable.
So, no, your children do not need maths to survive. They need it to understand the world around them - and that's plenty good enough reason to teach it.
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I'm sure someone needs it, but I for the life of me can't see why they insist that most people need it.
Most people don't need calculus.
Most people do need to be able to analyse problems and generate solutions.
Even if you never use the math, you will use the ability to analyze and solve problems.
Besides, you never know when you will have a sudden need to calculate the volume of a donut (or use derivatives to find maximum profit).
Seriously, this is such a stupid, infected meme. Maths is not food, clothes or shelter, so of course most people don't NEED it. Neither do we NEED mobile phones, music, religion, history, chemistry, philosophy, political science, politics, or ANY SODDING SUBJECT EVER TAUGHT IN A BLOODY SCHOOL, EVER.
Fact: We don't teach our children things because they NEED them. We teach them things to give them options beyond wage slavery and regular meals. If you can't handle that, rethink your opinions and get back when you have grasped it.
Maths is at the foundation of almost every natural scientific subject ever studied. It is a cornerstone of every single way of doing business. It is absolutely vital for getting any computer program to work. It reaches through music, art, architecture. The very idea of having an advanced society without maths is laughable.
So, no, your children do not need maths to survive. They need it to understand the world around them - and that's plenty good enough reason to teach it.
Why are we assuming your children need to survive. Although isn't cooking taught in cullinary school I think that is really useful for survival even without a modern society unless you just want to eat things raw. Altough I may be taking this a bit too literally and my studies in math and proofs by contradiction make it easier for me to find counterexamples.
IMO:As a general rule a significant portion of what is taught in high school (and beyond) isn't taught because people necessarily need to know it. It is taught because in many cases it forces you to think in a certain manner that society finds beneficial.
Since you're bringing this up, are we to assume that you believe Calculus fits this description? I'll admit I pulled a "C" in Calculus in college, but I really don't remember the section on brainwashing. :P
I think calculus is about mental training - what is taught isnt terribly important, but the discipline, abstract thinking, pattern recognition and mental agility that maths gives you is of value.None of this actually happens the way its being taught. You learn to mindlessly turn x group of numbers into Y group of numbers without learning what it is you're doing or why you're doing it.
Sadly, that matches my experience. I've thought of going to a community college to actually learn it, but so far I've not gotten off my backside...
Negative temperaureIf you always use the Kevlin scale, you'll never have a negative temperature.
Wow, that pretty much went over my head, at least on a brief pass through. I was definitely under the impression that absolute zero was, well, absolute.
I believe most people are able to follow the instructions on a microwave dinner, given an oven. Or boil water and add noodles before enjoying the meal. My apologies. Your children NEED to learn to read well enough to follow a microwave dinner instruction - unless they manage to find someone who can tell them to insert the food into the oven and let it run for three minutes, and this IS taught in school.