Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: Till I Reach the Highest Ground.
Goblin Squad Member
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Does Settlement mean we should expect to be able to walk around in our Settlements during Early Enrollment?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Well done team! I've known projects that were more than 3 months behind their schedule after the first 3 months - this is a real achievement.
Does Settlement mean we should expect to be able to walk around in our Settlements during Early Enrollment?
It certainly looks that way, doesn't it? So we may be able to walk around at least the NPC settlements on day 1, and walk around our own settlements as soon as the game progresses to that point.
I recall that the idea is we won't enter the buildings initially; they'll be facades that present an appropriate crafting or trading interface.
I imagine the stock of building art assets will increase over time so that player settlements can differentiate themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With that experience, we decided that we'd need about a quarter of a year to build the first playable hex.
Congratulations. The trees look suitably sized and the sloping ground shows a lot of character and promise. The hex as basic unit which can be repeated, could be a really great basis for the whole map design, producing complexity out of simplicity. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well done! Thanks for the constant updates, the game looks quite nice for a minimum product.
Does Settlement mean we should expect to be able to walk around in our Settlements during Early Enrollment?
I would hope so. And does Tavern Brawl mean that there will be building interiors and non-lethal combat?
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I'm glad the landscape looks like an actual landscape.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Tavern Brawl...
I like the significant differences in appearance between the two characters facing the camera. If the costumes are organised piecemeal, and not as entire outfits, I can already see good possibilities for playing with your appearance via simple mix-and-match.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Awesome pics.
-I'm really fond of the goblins' look and especially their crude tent.
-I'm very happy with the forest. I can definitely see myself getting immersed in the environmental art; flitting between trees as I not the movements of a rival army
-At first I thought the hands looked weird, but then I realized that was probably because I've never actually seen fingers in an MMO... always a gloves or a solid block-fist. Interesting!
-I like the contrast in lighting from the bright outdoors to the tavern; seems you could have some 'dark corners' in which to meet...
-The settlement is a lot more spacious than I imagined; I was thinking something more along the lines of buildings crammed together to fit inside the walls. I think the extra space will grow on me; I think it will fit well with the rest of the world, which looks quite 'open'
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nice work GW!
Only 3 things stood out to me as issues.
1. As Xaer has already pointed out with how the shadows for the trees cut out towards the back of SS 2.
2. Those guys in the Tavern SS have some of the logest thumbs Ive ever seen.
3. The biggest one for me is the vegetation. The character models and building architecture look truly awesome (love that dark gritty feel in the Tavern). But the vegetation looks kinda sparse in all but SS 1, and over all not very convincing (to me).
This is meant to be constructive, so please take no offense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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LOL greed, your right about the thumbs, but it is just funny looking.
I love the openness of the settlement in SS4. For an early product, well done. Still a few things to touch up on, like the thumbs, but well done. I am really looking forward to get into this and get going. Thanx for making the wait that much harder.....
Side note: While I am excited to see where the game is now and I am really very happy for the progress report, but I was hoping for a blog like "normal." I guess I will have to wait till next week. Perhaps WAR will be the topic? I know it is a hot topic here on the forums.....
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Goblin Squad Member
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The thumbs. I didn't notice on first blush, but those thumbs are like prehensile tails. Wow! But here's what I like....in the outdoor scenes, expecially in SS#2 (from the watchtower), the horizon disappears in the distance. That represents "possibility"! There's so much to do beyond the current space, and I want to explore it! That looks like great fun!
We were just talking about panaramic views a day or two ago, and the land rolling into a bluish horizon begs a party to head out for an adventure!
"Where are you going, Bilbo?"
"I'm going on an adventure!"
I liked the settlement, it seems to make an interesting terrain for wars/PVP combat.
Hopefully people can jump/climb up on roofs and that sort of thing.
The watch-tower was interesting, my immediate thought was 'I would want a taller one to see farther'.
I wonder if the walls/shields it has would provide any protection to the inhabitants,
obviously they are out of range of melee (until the melee threats climb up), but they seem vulnerable to ranged (magic/arrows),
but if the shields could provide some cover mitigation vs. at least some of that, it would help.
(of course, going on tabletop, medium-advanced archers would have feats bypassing partial cover)
I assume that there will be changing night and day, with different lighting conditions,
but will we also see things like changing cloud cover and/or rain/snow storms that also affect lighting/sight conditions?
The lighting seemed very bright outside, which is good to have sometimes, but duller lighting also seems good to have sometimes.
Of course, that may not be on the 'first to do' list. Torches shining off of rain in the dark would wow people.
Incidentally, what is the plan for low-light/darkvision?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Congratulations on reaching your milestone. The graphics look good, but I'm also interested in the rest of the hex aspects: "how much work we'd need to do to create terrain, some monsters, some character models, and to implement basic game mechanics."
Umm, what basic game mechanics have you created?
Wow.
Look at that art. How many artists do you guys have on staff, again? It's like vertigo. I have to keep reminding myself that it's only been a few months at most...
Is there some special benefit for reaching the highest ground? A specific in-game personal title? Kingship?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dark of Night
I assume that there will be changing night and day, with different lighting conditions,
but will we also see things like changing cloud cover and/or rain/snow storms that also affect lighting/sight conditions?
The lighting seemed very bright outside, which is good to have sometimes, but duller lighting also seems good to have sometimes.
Of course, that may not be on the 'first to do' list. Torches shining off of rain in the dark would wow people.
Incidentally, what is the plan for low-light/darkvision?
...
Here's the one thing that means that darkness isn't worth building into a game design:Players can easily run software that will render the surrounding areas as if lit. If a game actually shipped with "meaningful darkness", a player-built patch to remove it would be available within hours. Then the only people who would "suffer" from darkness would be the ones who are unwilling to "cheat", and the "cheaters" would have a huge advantage.
Nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero could be done to stop this from happening. (Look up what happened when people figured out you could make the walls transparent in iD games if you're interested in the cat & mouse between developers and those wiling to cheat).
As cool as it would be to stand on a watchtower and look out over the burning torches of the army marching toward you, doesn't look like it will happen.
I'm thinking that what we are seeing isn't a settlement, but a temporary backdrop for the screenshots.
Perhaps they should rename SS#4, "Welcome to the Blue Iguana"? :P
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@Sintaqx:
Well, my post there was mostly concerned with 'non-meaningful' darkness/light variation, just to change up the lighting conditions a bit from 'always sharply lit' to 'greyish' to 'dusk' and so forth. This does not even require having 'total darkness' that blocks vision. Basically, just to establish a more rich, flavorful visual environment. There could even be an in-game fluff reason for never having full pitch-dark night, such as multiple moons, planets, suns (or just a large amount of stars, although clouds would block those), or even dimly bioluminescent plants/fungus to bypass the cloud cover issue.
Although I don't see why any cheating issue to bypass 'mechanically relevant darkness (blocking vision)' couldn't be addressed by having the server mediate it, and only send each client updates on creatures/buildings/etc that they are allowed to see... The only thing that needs to be checked is distance vs. you (which needs to be checked for lots of things like limited range attacks, auras, etc) and cull the list before sending it to you [and similar culls should likely happen to not show characters hiding behind solid objects]. This doesn't need to be a high accuracy distant change, rounding to integers is completely do-able. So you could hack your client to look like broad daylight, or look like everything is underwater or anything else you want it to look like, but it wouldn't provide any mechanical advantage because the information sent to your client is only the information you are allowed to see. All the discussion I saw in that thread seemed fixated on this distance check happening on the local client computer, which is obviously prone to abuse.
But whether or not it is 'mechanically' relevant, i.e. determining whether you can see or target other characters, I think changing light levels add to the game all on their own.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am concerned about how short the range is for displaying shadows :(
I also notice (in the tower picture) that the shadows are not parallel, suggesting that the sun is less than 100 m away.
But these are easily tunable settings in the engine and has nothing to do with art or world development.
The long thumbs must surely be an indicator that pickpocketing is in the game (which I guess is one of the griefing mechanisms Bludd noted).
on a serious note: The settlement seems too spread out. I'd like to see a broad main street (wide enough for wagons and military formations) and a large square, but otherwise close packed houses and narrow alleys. Palisades/walls should be an obvious economic incentive to build compact. (and the assassins will love you for it).
I also thought the settlement was a bit too spread out for the most part.
Of course, for large population settlements (and the NPC cities) I can see how accomodating a large population of PCs would make larger streets desirable, but even for those locations I would hope there would still be smaller 'back streets' besides the main avenues, etc. Honestly, given that Settlement population (and visiting merchant business, etc) should largely correlate to Settlement development, I don't see why the streets, etc, shouldn't start rather small, and when you have a larger/richer/more developed Settlement/Nation, new Settlement Developments will be built with larger roads, probably leaving some areas with the older small roads/paths, but on the whole scaling to accomodate larger populations.
Hopefully next they will be demonstrating the emote animations for /thumb...
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Goblin Squad Member
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On settlement size, overall it appears a basic dev settlement WILL start of a bit scratchy and More spacious? More development more buildings and types built. Wonder if some of these will be stone buildings also? And upgrading fortifications and towers etc. Will settlement area increase over time ie boundaries increase or is it always a set plot that is filled up?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This settlement shot looks like a potential early settlement. I imagine they have plans for scaling settlements of many types, eventually up to a large fortified stone surround with battlements and options (murder holes, boiliog oil, placements for ballistae and catapults) for a large interior keep. The actual shop area for settlements in the medieval era was outside the actual keep and everyone ran inside for safety if a large force attacked, so I am guessing this is just a representation of one of the earliest and most modest settlement layouts.
@Sintaqx:
Well, my post there was mostly concerned with 'non-meaningful' darkness/light variation, just to change up the lighting conditions a bit from 'always sharply lit' to 'greyish' to 'dusk' and so forth. This does not even require having 'total darkness' that blocks vision. Basically, just to establish a more rich, flavorful visual environment. There could even be an in-game fluff reason for never having full pitch-dark night, such as multiple moons, planets, suns (or just a large amount of stars, although clouds would block those), or even dimly bioluminescent plants/fungus to bypass the cloud cover issue.Although I don't see why any cheating issue to bypass 'mechanically relevant darkness (blocking vision)' couldn't be addressed by having the server mediate it, and only send each client updates on creatures/buildings/etc that they are allowed to see... The only thing that needs to be checked is distance vs. you (which needs to be checked for lots of things like limited range attacks, auras, etc) and cull the list before sending it to you [and similar culls should likely happen to not show characters hiding behind solid objects]. This doesn't need to be a high accuracy distant change, rounding to integers is completely do-able. So you could hack your client to look like broad daylight, or look like everything is underwater or anything else you want it to look like, but it wouldn't provide any mechanical advantage because the information sent to your client is only the information you are allowed to see. All the discussion I saw in that thread seemed fixated on this distance check happening on the local client computer, which is obviously prone to abuse.
But whether or not it is 'mechanically' relevant, i.e. determining whether you can see or target other characters, I think changing light levels add to the game all on their own.
Several people have made suggestions on how to have darkness and foil the cheaters, but we've heard nothing from the Devs about it. Only thing I can figure is they don't see the benefit to having a day/night cycle. Personally I do think it would add to the game to have day and night, but often my ideas are quite fringe so....
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah I think some wires have been crossed concerning darkness and glowering/dusk inclusion in the in-game day-night cycle.
Full darkness is ruled out ie circumvention.
But day/night cycle with atmospheric effect of light is included.
I'm also hoping for weather effects (rolling clouds bringing rain, scudding clouds inbetween sunshine...) and I do not know if The River Lands have Seasons: but Winter for lower crop yield and Summer for harvest etc would be cool to see also?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like the day/night cycles, and a question concerning it is: If you can keep it server side to only give info on what you can see, can it also do the same for terrain? That way, if they did darkness when you couldn't see very far, they could limit the terrain you se also, not just creatures and such.
Weather and seasons would be another cool idea. Since time is x4 (I think) then seasons would be almost a month or so. That would make things interesting.
As for the scarceness of settlement, I think it should start with a " set wall" size and then at specific DI, they expand while upgrading the wall to stone ect. This way you really get the feel that the city is growing. Start with a set wooden wall, and a few buildings spread out. As you build more buildings it fills up and gets crowded. Once you hit a certain DI, you tear down the walls and make it stone and expand it a little. Then with more room, you can continue to build new buildings in the freed up space. Also gives a sense that you can tell the DI roughly by looking at the settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like the day/night cycles, and a question concerning it is: If you can keep it server side to only give info on what you can see, can it also do the same for terrain? That way, if they did darkness when you couldn't see very far, they could limit the terrain you se also, not just creatures and such.
Occlusion culling is a massive burden to put on the server. It's a significant part of the rendering the video card is supposed to handle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, well done! I can't wait to go exploring!
I love the vegetation, particularly in screenshot #1. I'd like to see more of it in the settlement shots, including the sort of things you would find in a "town" setting: vegetable gardens, flowerboxes, even a hedge or two.
Any plans to add domestic animals wandering around town? Dogs, cats, chickens... a British-style "common" for sheep grazing would be very nice. And practical; it keeps the valuable wool/meat animals protected in the settlement. All of these would add a lot of background "life" to the settlement. (For all I know, you've already planned for that, and I know this is early days. Just spitballing.)
Also, please release more screenshots as soon as you have female characters in them! Even if they're the same backgrounds as these with just the addition of female characters. I realize it's the norm to work on the males first, as your playerbase will be majority male, but it's tough waiting till the second pass to see the characters I'm going to be playing actually in situ.
Just want to weigh in and say that the game looks awesome. The art direction and style is something that I really like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm as guilty as anyone else is of taking the art blogs for granted and clamoring for more information about how the systems will work, but I think we ought to consider this a "normal" blog.
When you consider that these screenshots represent actual characters moving around in the game world, and apparently entering buildings and throwing punches, and when you add on top of that all the details you see not only on the characters but in the tavern and on the goblin tent and out in front of the houses in the Settlement, there has obviously been an incredible amount of effort by the art department.
There are some very talented artists working on PFO, and I hope we can set the tone now that recognizes their effort and doesn't leave them feeling unappreciated. I'm certainly going to try to be better about it myself.
I think the feedback about the thumbs and the shadows is very good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just noticed when looking at the screenshots again, that in shots were there are objects in the foreground in the settlement and tower, the objects in the foreground are very blurry. If you look at the tower interior or the support beam, it is out of focus compared to the background. Is this due to textures not holding up well at close range or due to a virtual camera effect?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wasn't intending to complain about this not being a "normal" blog and this is perfectly well suited for where it fell (as far as in relation to the milestone) and also, as stated, is very important information about the game itself. While it might not be a mechanic or "class" it is still very important to SEE the game and hear about accomplishments being made. I am sorry if my late posted came off as complaining, I was just really hoping for a war update this week.