So...we went into Thistletop in order to kill Nualia. We were level 3, which is the appropriate level in order to delve deep into the dungeon.
Well, we delved into the dungeon, and got through the glaive-pit combo trap. Then, Nualia appeared, her Yeth hound howled, and overall, we got smashed by Nualia and 3 of our five-man party died.
Okay, fine. So we dealt with that, rolled up new characters, and went down once more. Nualia was gone, apparently fleeing elsewhere with her hound. But we went through some double-doors and our paladin (one of our new characters) died in 2 rounds. They resisted our channel energy attempts, dodged our fireballs (necklace), and the only way we were able to kill ONE of them (replaced by the spawn from the paladin's body) was with a magic missile.
The point I'm getting at is...this was a regular encounter. It was a group of shadows. Nothing special. No boss status. It was a standard encounter. A standard CR 6 encounter with a party of level 3 characters. Against Shadows...one of the ONLY creatures that can kill with strength damage. And they swarmed our paladin. And killed him. In 2 turns.
In our first encounter of the day.
Is this right? Is this an appropriate difficulty level? Apparently, the final boss of this dungeon is CR 7. WHAT?
Please, I'd like to know what the hell is going on. Is this right? Because we're seriously considering dropping the campaign if this is the kind of thing we can expect.
Now don't get me wrong. I understand the concept of a challenging encounter. However, this just seems over the top and ridiculous.
Again, is this right? Is this what we can expect for the rest of the game? Because, if Yes, then I think this game is done and we're moving on.
Because we're pissed.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
|
Ugh, sounds like you had a really rough time there. A couple of comments that may be spoilers for you, but it sounds like you are already familiar with the encounters so...regarding the Shadows - this is where you learn sometimes it is okay to run away. They do not pursue beyond the doorway.
You mention the final boss of this book being CR7. Correct, but you can apply the lesson learned with the Shadows here as well.
And your thought about future expectations...probably should be something you work together with your GM about. I am currently running this for my group. We just finished Book 2 and it's been fun so far.
Best of luck!
I've complained about Shadows in the past. I feel they're overpowered for their threat level. If they did 2 points of Strength damage or if they didn't kill when Strength was reduced to 0 and instead had to send someone to negative their Strength... then they'd not be as horrific.
But 10 Shadows can, if they win a Surprise round, kill a level 20 character in that one round. That's not right.
That said, I KNEW the Shadows were a problem. That's why I had a goblin having wandered into the room and died... and thus became a fourth Shadow... but also warned the players that there was something in there. The Cleric realized the threat, hit them with Channel Energy, and while they swarmed the Barbarian and Thief, the only thing they nommed was the Bull Strength spell on the Barbarian and missed the Thief entirely.
Next round they died the rest of the way.
So really. That room is a threat... and could easily have been revamped so to warn players. As it exists, it's possible to suffer a TPK quite easily if the Shadows roll well... and especially if they target low-strength characters first.
Ugh, sounds like you had a really rough time there. A couple of comments that may be spoilers for you, but it sounds like you are already familiar with the encounters so...regarding the Shadows - this is where you learn sometimes it is okay to run away. They do not pursue beyond the doorway.
You mention the final boss of this book being CR7. Correct, but you can apply the lesson learned with the Shadows here as well.
And your thought about future expectations...probably should be something you work together with your GM about. I am currently running this for my group. We just finished Book 2 and it's been fun so far.
Best of luck!
Seems it was a bit of bad luck, when we discussed it. He was to roll to determine how many rounds it took until the shadows came after us. He rolled 1, which apparently meant that they attacked immediately. And since the Paladin was the only one in the room at the time, he got swarmed, dropping him to 1 str after the first round. Since he couldn't move, he couldn't run. We desperately tried to get him out, but a second round of touches killed him. Our rogue eventually dragged his body out of the room, whereupon they returned to their sarcophagi. We thought all was well, until a shadow rose from his body and proceeded to kill our rogue. The rest of us ran, and the entire group got pissed.
The problem was that it was the first encounter. The FIRST one. The 3 players who made new characters (including me) spent DAYS coming up with cool new PCs who were in an adventuring band together (in-character, we had just come from overcoming the first book of Carrion Crown). We had developed backstories. The paladin and the sorceress were married. We had fun personalities and were going to bring a new mindset to the game. Then the paladin died. Just like that. 2 turns.
We decided that, at that point, we were no longer the heroes of Sandpoint. Only 1 member of the original party (the cleric) was still around, and the new guys had not only proven useless, but close to a liability.
We're starting a new game. The cleric and sorceress will be joining, having fled Sandpoint.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Dude. Why not just replay that encounter? Retcon it. Have it be a nightmare they suffered from. A premonition of what was to come.
Or how about this? Have one of the NPCs from Sandpoint offer a wand of Magic Missles.
Use Lesser Shadows, only 1-2 str points lost
Homebrew the str loss. If driven to 0 STR, the charscter starts losing Str(Show it as the body transforming into a shadow) They can try to stabilize to stop the loss. A potion of Lesser Restoration could heal and prevent the loss.
The funny thing is that when I ran this place my party of 3 had a fairly easy time. They did initially run from the shadows and drained like 20 charges from a wand of cure light wounds, but they did manage to get through without a single death.
Then again, they did have hero points, and those are pretty good for surviving when it matters.
… And since the Paladin was the only one in the room at the time, he got swarmed, dropping him to 1 str after the first round. Since he couldn't move, he couldn't run…
This might be part of the problem - Strength damage adds up. It does not decrease the actual Score, nor does it reduce carrying capacity unless the Strength damage equals the Strength Score (in which case the character is indeed unable to move). If a character with an 18 Strength takes 17 points of Strength damage, he has a -8 on all Strength related rolls and… that's it. He's still able to move at full speed. A lot of people miss this one (especially those converting from 3.5, where Strength damage worked differently). Damage to a mental Ability Score (Int, Wis, Cha) also applies a penalty to DC, and damage to Constitution will decrease current/total hit points. Otherwise, it's just a penalty to checks involving that Ability Score.
I'm afraid you're playing two of the most infamous player-killing APs out there. Rise of the Runelords really isn't that bad, *unless* either:
(a) Your GM enjoys killing PCs, or
(b) You enjoy running headlong into situations without investigating things first.
But the shadows are just plain nasty, and I don't blame you for having a sour taste in your mouth afterwards; there's no warning at all, and they're definitely TPK-fodder for a 3rd-level party that doesn't have a cleric. Your GM should adjust according to expectations:
When my party opened the door and shined a light in, I emphasized the six sarcohagi on the walls. They immediately thought, "Undead". First they all tried (and failed) their Perception rolls from outside of the room. Then the paladin used Detect Evil on each sarcophagus in turn. As a "non-lethal" GM, I allowed that there was a possibility that one of the shadows might be hiding behind/in front of a sarcophagus. I rolled location for each shadow, and voila! One of them rolled a 1 and the party was aware of them.
So they didn't go into the room. Being willing to NOT go in is something that is important to learn early on, so they emphasize it by killing people who do.
If you don't enjoying losing so many PCs, talk to your GM about exactly what you could have done to notice the shadows. If he/she says, "Nothing. You were going to get hit once you went into that room," then you can at least rest assured that I can't think of another, "Go in and die," room in the first four modules of RotRL.
And that's the thing about Rise of the Runelords -- there are definitely situations where strolling confidently forwards will get you killed. But in terms of really nasty encounters that kill PCs, there's one infamous one (killed one of my PCs, and if not for an epic fumble might have killed them all), but other than that one, my group has had a remarkably easy time of it, and we're just moving to Module 5 without any significant fudging or nerfing on my part. (The only encounter I recall meddling with was allowing them to notice the shadows, in fact...)
Unfortunately, starting in Module 2 Carrion Crown goes exactly in the direction of, "Oh, you open that door? You fool! You're dead!"
There's one infamous encounter there that has a near-100% chance of killing half the party. Not fun at all! Just last week my fighter got killed AGAIN my Yet-Another-WTF-Encounter that was designed to ensure at least one PC death unless someone rolled well. But we're still playing...
I have a group of players in about the same place and I can say Thistletop is probably one of the most dangerous dungeons I've ever GMed. My group did very well, until the Yeth Hounds. One member each failed to their Bay attack, with the oracle/fighter getting 6 rounds of panicked and the witch 4. It was only through a clever use of herding those two players into the Tentamort's hunting grounds and defending in the two bottle necks against a CR 10 encounter (the bays alerted, Lyrie, Nualia & her 3rd yeth hound, Orik [who I took pity on the party on as he decided this was a prime distraction to slip away and make his way to Korsova on], and Bruzthalmus.
They did manage an epic escape with only the Oracle going negative (and thanks to his Die Hard from Unbreakable, not going unconscious) as they leapt in the ocean, managing to hide long enough that the yeth hounds were called off. They then limped back to Sandpoint and rested, and are now level 4, which is good because they'll need it against the now-on-alert remainder of the forces.
TL; DR, Thistletop is a player deathtrap.
I have, several times, said "I'm sorry I didn't hear that. What did you roll?" and my players will realize I'm giving them a pass. And they appreciate it. They know it's not me being a "pushover" or the like. It's because I want to advance the story.
One instance that could have been a TPK was when the party first encountered the Yeth Hounds... and the Barbarian and both NPCs (Shalelu and the GMPC) failed their saves, leaving the low-strength halfling bard/cleric and the ranger/wizard to face two Hounds.
I allowed the bard/cleric to immediately start bardic music to counter the effect, out of initiative. And it allowed the party to rally and fight off the Hounds. (Amusingly enough, Shalelu also fled like a little girl when they faced the final Yeth Hound and Nualia. Seems she just doesn't like that sound! ^^)
The reason for being lenient? Players have poured their hearts into these characters. They have designed interesting and enjoyable backstories and have started building a sense of family. Just killing someone without reason is detrimental for an enjoyable party and adventuring group. And I get MY enjoyment from the game by watching them interact and become this family. Killing them off? Kills that enjoyment.
Mind you, I did do a near TPK twice, but in both cases it was literally a nightmare (once for a single player with everyone else in on it and the second time a prank between me and that single player against the rest of the party). And you know something? I think having the unexpectedness of a TPK sprung on them without lasting effects (outside of roleplay) was what made it fun, but only after the fact.
Yeah, I've never been against fudging rolls occasionally to keep PCs alive. I had to do it a couple times against that very shadow encounter, else the infernal sorcerer would have easily died. Luckily, my players really, really get into their characters and story elements, so if an encounter brings them close to death, they truly feel the "on edge" effects from it. To me, that's a win without ever having to kill them.
That's not to say I've never killed characters. It's just to say that typically I save such moments for if they deserve it (ie. they just plain do something stupid and don't deserve a pass; typically, even they understand when this happens and agree they deserve what they get), or as we get towards the end of the AP. Once we get to that level 10-12 range, and revivification magic becomes a possibility, my mindset is that they've been playing these characters a long time and should know how to handle themselves by then. I'm still lenient, but not quite as much at that point.
Simply stated, though, I hate killing my player's characters because they put so much time and energy into them! A couple years ago, we started playing a lethal 2E campaign where it was agreed all around that there would be no fudging of rolls, and whatever happens is what happens. The death toll has been huge in that game, and the storyline has suffered because of all the new blood that is constantly coming into it. Honestly, I'm DM for the game, and I'm not having much fun with it. I think there has been at least ten character deaths, and it's really hurt the game a lot. Plus, the players are bringing in characters now that have virtually no good back stories since their characters might only survive a few sessions. Not enjoyable. I don't understand how any GM can enjoy running a death fest, let alone being a player in one.
I'm about to start the lower levels next session(up coming Saturday), and I'm honestly a little worried. My group(Paladin, Rogue, Alchemist, Monk, Ranger and NPC Inquisitor) almost had a TPK against Ripnugget.
I kept having him chaotically attacking and not finishing anyone off. Monk went down, so he went right to the Paladin who was flanking with the Rogue. Paladin goes down, and the Alchemist uses CLW Wand to put'em right back up. So, I put'em down again, then back to the Rogue. Alchemist moved too close for one round and I smacked him down as well. Ripnugget no like sparky wand that keeps his enemies from dying.
They were doing SO well. So very, very well. And then I rolled max on his Cure Moderate Wounds potions. So, the 50-some odd damage turns to 20-something, and we go again! That Rogue was doing some sweet numbers when he hit. I didn't score a single critical the entire fight.
I'm honestly worried that Nualia and her Yeth Hound will be the TPK and wipe the party horribly. Though, since they're all so attached to their characters, I might do a "it was a dream!" retcon.
I have fudged some dice now and again. I also played some encounters "wrong". Erylium I had her stop being a pain with her slumbers and such, and came down to be really smacked around, because it was a 4 hour encounter. I do think I'll be doing the same with Nualia's encounter, or the undead. Dunno yet. I play it by ear.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
2 things about this encounter:
1. You can buy holy water for cheap. 25g a bottle - assuming you guys have done the glassworks you should have been able to find enough loot to buy some of this stuff (and it's super cheap if you have a cleric).
That's 2d4 dmg on a touch attack to shadows - everyone in the group should carry 1-2 flasks of this stuff for 'undead' emergencies - it works against anything undead with no DR applied.
2. You can still move with strength damage - as others have said.
Hopefully you guys can learn from this and think about some consumables to carry for situations like this.
Shadows aren't the only monster that some cheap consumable items really help against - diminutive swarms (weapons can't hurt them) - puddings - other types of monsters with high DR...
Acid ignores most DR and Holy Water ignores all undead DR - tanglefoot bags can make an 'impossible to hit' enemy just a 'hard to hit' enemy - at some point you will most likely have enough stuff to ignore the consumables but they are very nice to have through much of an adventuring career.
In a world with monsters and such - how does your average village survive? Well 100 villagers with acid flasks can take out some very nasty monsters - including many sizes of dragons :)
Thanks for that reminder Ckorik. As a GM I roll my eyes that my players don't bother to ask about cheap consumables as they save up for multi-thousand GP weapon enhancements... then as a player I forget the lesson!
I had a party that almost had a death or two to shadows in another game. It was a stark reminder to them that even lower level stuff can be dangerous, and they need to go prepared to handle a variety of encounters.
What I find useful sometimes is to drop hints of what's to come.
I like the occasional enounter that characters should have to consider running away from. And I like the occasional encounter where the characters have to do a little research and preparation before returning to in order to defeat it. But TPK's are fun for absolutely no one, and casual non-heroic deaths for characters my players work so hard for just doesn't happen in my campaigns. I'll mess with a character, give him a scar or a permanent penalty/deformity/curse/negative level(s) or have a favored item destroyed or stolen, but characters aren't going to die in my campaign unless they are very stupid or utterly heroic.
This can be more of a challenge than it appears considering we generally run a fairly low-magic campaign, but more often than not it merely requires an understanding of the party's capabilities and an occasional encounter tweak beforehand. I'm also not shy about upping difficulties when called for.
Examples from the first chapter of RotRL:
In the Catacombs of Wrath, the characters faced more than the usual number of sinspawn and the fight aginst the Erylium the quasit was difficult for them lacking the necessary magic or DR bypass, so they withdrew, researched and gameplanned before returning and taking her down.
In Thistletop, one of many changes I made were to do away with the Shadows entirely as being level inappropriate.
Shadows only have 19 hit points but are incorporeal, can only be hit by magic weapons (and even then only take half damage), and completely ignore armor class. If you have a low or "average" Dexterity then you're going to be hit in all likelihood. Even if you have a cleric that didn't take any other classes, he or she only does 2d6 damage with channeled energy, and Shadows have resistance bonuses to take only half damage.
If, for instance, you have a warrior or barbarian character who refused Nualia's magic bastard sword or the magic longsword because he or she is using a "family weapon" then that combatant is suddenly USELESS. Completely and utterly useless.
To put this in perspective, Shadows have the equivalence of 38 hit points due to their ignoring half of the damage out there. They can't be killed with one lucky Channeled energy, EVEN IF the cleric was level 5 and maxed damage with Channel Energy and every single Shadow failed its save.
|
|
Third level characters should have magic weapons, and several magic weapons were available to the players if you got to that point in the quest. I can think of one additional beyond what you have listed off the top of my head, meaning there were at least 3 magic weapons available.
If you refused one of the magic weapons, not the games fault. You refused a magic weapon and didn't replace it.
This isn't a first level fight. I ran the same encounter with no significant problems with a comparable party. It was hard, but they handled it.
Yes, and thus you're penalizing roleplaying for game mechanics. "You remained true to your character concept. Thus we're going to kill your character to punish you for not being a generic PC."
It also doesn't alter any of my other points of view. And seeing the GM made the (admittedly reasonable) mistake about Strength Damage, I could very well see in the above situation to recon the death of the Paladin and thief by allowing the Paladin to have fled the room and remain alive.
|
My players bugged out as soon as they saw the shadows in action and didn't even meet the area's other denizen. I was quite proud of them for seeing the situation as their characters would and finding the better part of valor.
Yes, and thus you're penalizing roleplaying for game mechanics. "You remained true to your character concept. Thus we're going to kill your character to punish you for not being a generic PC."
If you're trying to make sure that PCs choices don't kill them, changing the shadows is going to be the least of your concerns.
Sometimes in-character logic results in your character not having the weapons they need. Other times out-of-character logic results in your characters staying in fights because every encounter falls in the CR guidelines.
It seems to me like the fights in the basement of Thistletop are more likely to kill people for out-of-character logic than because they were being too in-character.
Cheers!
Landon
When I read a module or adventure path installment and find a tough fight (the obituaries threads are my good good friends), I try to provide foreshadowing to let them prepare for it, instead of removing the encounter.
So my party had an easier time on Thistletop despite me grouping up most encounters (since the PCs retreated and came back a couple days later, the dungeon denizens were better prepared). For example:
The Nualia fight included ALL the hounds. Even then no PC failed the saves (they had a paladin providing a +4 and all had good Will saves). The NPCs accompanying them failed, though (Shalelu and a goblin ally).
The goblin ally returned to the party weakened, saying he ran scared into a room with some moving shadows. After a good rest, the party entered, buffed with magic circle against evil and temporarily wielding the magic weapons they had found before (also, the cleric used magic weapon on the ranger's family elven curve blade). Between a paladin smiting evil, a ranger two-handed Power-Attacking and the cleric channeling for a couple rounds, the shadows didn't last 2 rounds. I wouldn't call it easy (they had to move around a lot so one person wouldn't get overwhelmed and had to use a LOT of restoration spells after) but nobody came close to actually dieing (I think the paladin got to 8 Strenght but he had an 18).
If you're RP'ing a character who never flees...then you must be willing to accept the fact that sooner or later you WILL fall, because there's always the danger of a foe who is more powerful than you or your party. Golarion is a DANGEROUS place, especially for the uninitiated (re: low level).
That's why I love that the vast majority of Paladin codes (as seen in the awesome book, Faiths of Purity, usually do not have such strict tennants. You may have taken an oath to defend the weak, or be the last person to leave, but a Paladin that stands his ground and dies on principal alone is one that does not live to teach those principals to others.
If you're RP'ing a character that won't use the tools given to him because of some code...well, you got to be willing to accept the occasional challenge it creates. And that's fine. A code without a challenge is hardly one worth mentioning.
But TPK's are fun for absolutely no one, and casual non-heroic deaths for characters my players work so hard for just doesn't happen in my campaigns. I'll mess with a character, give him a scar or a permanent penalty/deformity/curse/negative level(s) or have a favored item destroyed or stolen, but characters aren't going to die in my campaign unless they are very stupid or utterly heroic.
I have to disagree just a bit. TPKs can certainly be downers, but I wouldn't say that are absolutely no fun. The Gamemastery Guide gives some very great suggestions for how to handle a TPK which can be inventive and fun. My last group used it as a launching point for a brand new campaign. And the occasional PK or TPK reminds players that their characters are mortal and that decisions need to be made carefully . (I totally admit though that a TPK that happens suddenly through no fault of the party can be pretty crushing. I haven't seen one in an AP just yet, though. Even in circumstances where they were above their heads, the party could usually flee or something).
I love playing clerics. It's my favorite. The fact that you can build them so many different ways with the domains and spell focus is awesome. I remember my first cleric...Sarenrae followers....cast fireball (group started at level 5ish) and the group was surprised. "Cleric? Fireballs?" "Ayup," I said. "I call it fiery cleansing!"
And the the healing domain, having free empowered heals was super awesome. Yeah, I was a bit of a healbot at times, but I healed really well.
I played this one, and I am GM'ing it now. AP's are not really that difficult, but if the party is not optimized, and the GM is using optimal tactics there can be issues. The GM should hold back, or the party should be asked to step up.
I'm about to start the lower levels next session(up coming Saturday), and I'm honestly a little worried. My group(Paladin, Rogue, Alchemist, Monk, Ranger and NPC Inquisitor) almost had a TPK against Ripnugget. ** spoiler omitted **
I'm honestly worried that Nualia and her Yeth Hound will be the TPK and wipe the party horribly. Though, since they're all so attached to their characters, I might do a "it was a dream!" retcon.
I have fudged some dice now and again. I also played some encounters "wrong". Erylium I had her stop being a pain with her slumbers and such, and came down to be really smacked around, because it was a 4 hour encounter. I do think I'll be doing the same...
You know, I notice how much people actively avoid playing clerics. "Boooring!" or "Healbot!"
Apart from fixing status conditions and giving buffs, it's rather enjoyable when you throw a silence spell on the BSF's shield and have him charge in. It's amazing how that dismays spell casters and opponents with sonic based attacks.
Sadly, the inquisitor might be too low-level for the silence spell at your point in the module.
The Alchemist has "resigned" himself to knowing he's the healer, and he's more than fine with this development. I think he was building himself as such, as well as his desires to be a Master Chymist.
The last character I played in an actual campaign was a Battle Cleric in Forgotten Realms, with Healing and Strength domains. It was actually really fun. Built myself to hybrid fighting and healing, and I was fairly adept at both. Except for when my Deity died, but that was near the end of the campaign run for us.