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Can it work?
Requirement: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
Bonded item: A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.
It's a hard-coded ability for a wizard, struggling to cast normal spells without this item. Could it work?
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Hmmm, on my table I would say it doesn't work.
1. "Ability to cast 1st level arcane spells without preparation"
- I would interpret this to mean that you need to have access to an arcane spell list from which you (independently) may cast spontaneously.
2. Bonded Item
- There are too many ways this could be used as an exploit. Basically any item that allows a PC to cast a spell spontaneously could be used to justify why you qualify for the class.
The flavor of the class really suggests that the Dragon Disciples powers are innate, and not learned.
If you really want this to work, I would simply ask your GM if he would allow you to do it.
Interesting. I'd say probably not, I wouldn't allow it. But I hit the FAQ for yah.
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Isn't there a feat that allows a wizard to cast one or more spells without preparation? *goes to look it up* Hmm... Apparently there is not, but then again I could have missed it.
Perhaps you could convince your GM that the innate spell-like abilities of some races that can be found on the sor/wiz spell list would qualify you for the Dragon Disciple prc. Or maybe convince him to allow your bonded object count, since it is a class feature and not some random magic item you find off a monster or purchase from a shop.
Hmmm, on my table I would say it doesn't work.
1. "Ability to cast 1st level arcane spells without preparation"
- I would interpret this to mean that you need to have access to an arcane spell list from which you (independently) may cast spontaneously.2. Bonded Item
- There are too many ways this could be used as an exploit. Basically any item that allows a PC to cast a spell spontaneously could be used to justify why you qualify for the class.The flavor of the class really suggests that the Dragon Disciples powers are innate, and not learned.
If you really want this to work, I would simply ask your GM if he would allow you to do it.
Is it anymore exploitive for a Wizard to use DD than a Bard or Summoner?
Also, it's a class feature, just like spell-casting. It's not "just" and item, it's a class defining feature which makes you dependable on an item and a spell tome. A ring made out of ancient dragon's scale for his human children makes as much sense as a non-dragon related bard or summoner?
Arcane Bond:
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard's opposition schools (see arcane school below).
That is not spontaneus casting,it works pretty similar but there are clear differences.So this is an obvious no.
You can be a Wizard4/Sorcerer1 and then advance your wizard casting with DD since:
At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Thing is, the arcane bond allows 1 spell per day without preparation.
I'd say that's clearly not "spells".
So, no deal.
Actually it allows casting one spell out of any spells you know. If a sorcerer is left with one level one spell slot, does he stop using DD powers because he now cannot cast level one "spells" but a single "spell"?
No it can't. This has come up before. They are referring to spontaneous casters.
RAW says "Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline."
That is plural. With that aside the intent is for spontaneous casters, so either way the wizard is out of luck.
There is also this from the PRD
Bards: He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.
Sorcerer She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.
The wizard is a prepared caster.
Arcane Bond (Ex or Sp):
The bonded item is also listed as an SP(spell like ability). SP's are not spontaneously cast spells.
It just has the following modification--> "This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities."
There is also this:
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell... "
The object is used to cast the spell. The wizard uses the item but he is not casting the spell, he is activating the item that casts the spell.
Then the spell is treated like a spell cast by the wizard for DCs and all that jazz.
That is RAW and RAI and it doesn't allow the Wizard access to the DD PrC.
We know the familiar is not a spell-like ability so it would have to be the EX(extraordinary ability).
I'd say no, an arcane bonded item does not qualify a wizard to take Dragon Disciple much like the same way having a wand doesn't give me a caster level if I'm a non-caster or having spell-like abilities makes me a spellcaster either.
No it can't. This has come up before. They are referring to spontaneous casters.
RAW says "Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline."
That is plural. With that aside the intent is for spontaneous casters, so either way the wizard is out of luck.
There is also this from the PRD
Bards: He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.
Sorcerer She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.
The wizard is a prepared caster.
Arcane Bond (Ex or Sp):
The bonded item is also listed as an SP(spell like ability). SP's are not spontaneously cast spells.
It just has the following modification--> "This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities."
There is also this:
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell... "
The object is used to cast the spell. The wizard uses the item but he is not casting the spell, he is activating the item that casts the spell.Then the spell is treated like a spell cast by the wizard for DCs and all that jazz.
That is RAW and RAI and it doesn't allow the Wizard access to the DD PrC.We know the familiar is not a spell-like ability so it would have to be the EX(extraordinary ability).
Isn't comparing the class feature to a wand a bit far fetched? That's like saying a companion is on par with a bought pet.
So it's kosher to take one level in sorc, and spend all the DD +caster levels in wizard, because that's logical, but a the item which is as much part of the wizard, and even directly alters the way he can cast spells (con check for casting without it). Sounds weird, but oh well, it works just as effectively with Guilds from Inner Sea Magic, granting casting of 2nd level sorcerer and 10th level wizard at lvl 10.
No, it is not far-fetched. Both the item and the wand release a spell the wizard has not prepared.
Yes it's kosher(speaking for rules only) to take the one level dip in sorcerer. Personally for a home game I would allow it(wizard DD), but for the purpose of rules the wizard should not be a DD without multiclassing.
I have read about the guilds, but I forgot exactly how they work.
No, it is not far-fetched. Both the item and the wand release a spell the wizard has not prepared.
Yes it's kosher(speaking for rules only) to take the one level dip in sorcerer. Personally for a home game I would allow it(wizard DD), but for the purpose of rules the wizard should not be a DD without multiclassing.
I have read about the guilds, but I forgot exactly how they work.
You do skill checks every Semester. THe amount of time differs between guilds. After 5 successful checks you gain +1 caster level to class of your choice, this includes everything such as spell slots, spells known, dc, etc. After 35 checks you gain +3 to that class and +1 to another. Giving sorcerer 2 casting with wizard 10 casting at 10th level.
Maybe I should have asked under advice, our games tend to be a bit more open minded, using a dragon scale bonded object makes as much sense as a level one dip in sorcerer, either way, DD rulewise increases spellcasting of wizard.
I remember that now. I do think you have to have one level in the class already though.
I remember that now. I do think you have to have one level in the class already though.
Yeah, which a sorcerer 1, wizard 4, dragon disciple 5 would work nicely enough. Just feel weird about one level dipping for such a minor wording.
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Yeah, which a sorcerer 1, wizard 4, dragon disciple 5 would work nicely enough. Just feel weird about one level dipping for such a minor wording.
Yah I don't think I could get myself to do that, and it simply wouldn't work. If I were DM and playing within the rules as I see them, I would force you to advance your Sorcerer levels, and not your Wizard levels.
I think you did well to post here, since it will help you to argue your point from the right angle to your DM. It isn't within the rules, but who's to say you shouldn't be able to do it at your table?
Yeah, which a sorcerer 1, wizard 4, dragon disciple 5 would work nicely enough. Just feel weird about one level dipping for such a minor wording.Yah I don't think I could get myself to do that, and it simply wouldn't work. If I were DM and playing within the rules as I see them, I would force you to advance your Sorcerer levels, and not your Wizard levels.
I think you did well to post here, since it will help you to argue your point from the right angle to your DM. It isn't within the rules, but who's to say you shouldn't be able to do it at your table?
Did you check DD?
"If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day."
Clearly a wizard can progress from the class just as with any other prestige class.
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Did you check DD?
"If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day."
Clearly a wizard can progress from the class just as with any other prestige class.
:) I sure did. That's why I said "the rules as I see them" because I would disqualify any "arcane spellcasting class" that wasn't spontaneous. But I could totally be wrong on that point, and I don't know if there's been any official commentary to that affect.
As a practical matter, if you do choose to dip into Sorc, it won't necessarily be a bad thing. You can take a bloodline that will synergize well with your spell selection.
You should note that you'll lose 4-5 levels (depending) of bloodline powers.... though you might be able to convince your DM to have your Wizard School bonus advance.
The text for the DD is copy and paste text that is in other PrC's also, so it is rules legal to advance the wizard class. Now you can assume Paizo did not intend to do a copy and paste, but as written it works, and it is not mechanically broken.
Did you check DD?
"If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day."
Clearly a wizard can progress from the class just as with any other prestige class.
:) I sure did. That's why I said "the rules as I see them" because I would disqualify any "arcane spellcasting class" that wasn't spontaneous. But I could totally be wrong on that point, and I don't know if there's been any official commentary to that affect.
As a practical matter, if you do choose to dip into Sorc, it won't necessarily be a bad thing. You can take a bloodline that will synergize well with your spell selection.
You should note that you'll lose 4-5 levels (depending) of bloodline powers.... though you might be able to convince your DM to have your Wizard School bonus advance.
Right. Wasn't obvious that it was a houserule. The text clearly states any arcane casting class. Thanks anyhow.
The wizard would not gain spells known, but it can advance spells per day.
Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?
No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.
—Jason Bulmahn, 11/24/10
He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
The wizard would not gain spells known, but it can advance spells per day.
Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?
No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.
—Jason Bulmahn, 11/24/10
He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.
Very aware of that. Seen the threads on it. Thank god for Preconstructed spelltomes and low scribing charges.
That was for Abadar, not you CS. :)
That was for Abadar, not you CS. :)
But...everythings about me...
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That was for Abadar, not you CS. :)
Were you responding to the part where I talked about his Wizard School bonus advancing? I was referring to the DD clause about your Sorc Bloodline advancing, I said perhaps he could swap out the advanced powers.
EDIT: Or perhaps when I mentioned "spell selection". I wasn't referring to him actually advancing in spells known per lvl, I was referring to his specialty/Wizard School (evocation, divination, etc)
I thought you were saying rules don't allow for the wizard to advance spellcasting for the DD. I may have misunderstood what you meant though.
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A wizard must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
He(Magus) cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook except for read magic, which all magi can prepare from memory
Versus
She(sorcerer) can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.
He(bard) can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.
He(Bard) can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.
Now we read the requirements for DD
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
If you counted the ability to cast a single arcane 1st level spell as prepping 1st level arcane spells without prep, you'd have to let every race with a 1st lvl innate ability qualify for Dragon Disciple, which is of course silly and not what the rules suggest.
Kudo's on the attempt though.