| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A creature with negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. These permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equals its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
Unless the negative level is cause by someting like "raise dead" the negative levels aren't permanent. The character gets a new save every day until it goes away, or a restoration spell is cast.
Eve permaet negative levels aren't permanent, but they must be restored via a restoration spell.
Negative levels from a vampire (and most monster attacks) are temporary for the first 24 hours. During this time, you can remove them as you would any temporary negative level with a lower priced restoration.
At the end of the 24 hours, if you still have those negative levels, you must make a save against the negative level or it becomes permanent. If you save, it goes away. If you fail, it becomes permanent. A permanent negative level can be removed with the more expensive version of restoration.
The difference in material component between the two is like 100 gp for the cheap version and 1000 gp for the expensive version.
Also, a restoration spell will remove ALL temporary negative levels in a single casting, but only a single permanent negative level. You also can not remove more than 1 permanent negative level per week with restoration.
Hope that helps.
EDIT:
Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature's description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This isn't so clear...
There are two different descriptions of the Energy Drain ability... That one is from the Bestiary, but the one on the Core is very different:
Energy Drain and Negative Levels
Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
This makes clear that temporary negative levels give a ST each day, while permanent do not give a ST at all...
Could some developer tell us which one is the right one? I like more the one on the Core Rulebook, but at the moment they are both "official"...
The one in the bestiary is referencing the monster ability which has its own rules. They should have given them different names.
As an example if you a vampire which has the "energy drain" monster ability hits you then you follow the version under universal monster rules.
If you lose levels but it is not because of the monster ability energy drain you follow the core book unless whatever gives you negative levels says otherwise.
In short they are both correct.
Nope, it's not that simple...
As you can read from my quote above, the Core Rulebook refers to BOTH monster abilities and other sources of negative levels... This just cuts away the "bestiary refers to monsters, the Core to others" explanation...
Besides, the "permanentization" after 24 hours was the way negative levels functioned in 3.x, so, to me, that part looks a lot like a refuse of some sort...
Nope, it's not that simple...
As you can read from my quote above, the Core Rulebook refers to BOTH monster abilities and other sources of negative levels... This just cuts away the "bestiary refers to monsters, the Core to others" explanation...
Besides, the "permanentization" after 24 hours was the way negative levels functioned in 3.x, so, to me, that part looks a lot like a refuse of some sort...
Yes it is that simple. You show me any source of negative energy, and I can tell you how it works.
This is not about how me or you handle energy drain in the game... I strictly follow what the Core says and I too can tell how every source of negative levels works...
What I'd like to see is some official errata that excludes one or the other version of the rule, so to be sure what the right one is once and for all...
Besides, it's quite some time that no new errata get published, even though there are some manuals in desperate need for some...
I am saying I can follow the rules and make it work because both are correct.
If you decide to list a way that might cause a problem in game I am ready to hear it.
edit: Also permanent levels are not really permanent like they were in 3.5. I will be waiting on your example that can not be solved by the book.
Nope, it's not that simple...
As you can read from my quote above, the Core Rulebook refers to BOTH monster abilities and other sources of negative levels... This just cuts away the "bestiary refers to monsters, the Core to others" explanation...
Besides, the "permanentization" after 24 hours was the way negative levels functioned in 3.x, so, to me, that part looks a lot like a refuse of some sort...
Specific overrides General. Everytime.
Unless the source of level drain specifically says otherwise (as does the Energy Drain monster ability) it follows the rules in the CRB.
Yep... The problem is that we have two general rules, and not a general one and a specific one...
The description of an ability in a specific monster entry may be a specific rule, while the universal monster rules and the special abilities list are the sources for general rules about special abilities... The problem is that, in this case, we have two contradictory general rules where the entries should be the same both in the Core and the Bestiary, as they were in 3.5's Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual...
If it was just a case of a specific rule beating a general one, I would not have posted a request for an official clarification or correction at all...
In the meantime, I will stick to the version I like the most, that is the one in the Core, since it's a far better conceived rule than the too-3.5-like one in the Bestiary: it is not a "save or die" kind of rule, yet it is still a nasty menace, a true Pathfinder-style rule...
There is no discrepancy between the two rules.
The CRB rule says "Some abilities and spells ... bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them."
The UMR "Energy Drain" ability is one such ability that has the ability to bestow permanent level drain. It doesn't do so immediately, but it does have that ability.
In any case, since the Bestiary was printed after the CRB, the Bestiary should take precedence if there are any discrepancies (especially in terms of monster abilities).
I am not seeing a discrepancy. Show me an instance where the rules don't work. If you can't there is no problem.
The later printing of the Bestiary does not exclude a possible misprinting or faulty revision, especially since it contradicts a general rule in the core with another one which functions in a very different way.
And that different functioning is what I define a "discrepancy", one so evident, even looking back at how the corresponding parts os 3.5 ruleset where written, that it can't be anything else but a gross refuse.
Since almost all source of negative levels are from some monsters, there should be no need for two different general rules: they could have just made specific rules for those very few spells or abilities that are not from monsters.
Also, there are still no errata at the moment, both for Bestiary and for Core, to solve this discrepancy. If the Bestiary one was the revised version, one of the five version of the Core's errata should have corrected its entry.
As far as I can see there are no discrepancies, you just have to carefully read and use both rules.
The rule in the Core Rulebook, as Are mentioned previously, says
"Some abilities and spells ... bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them."
The Energy Drain ability from the Bestiary is one of those, although it only bestows negative levels if a condition is met (failing the next day's saving throw).
So both rules, don't contradict each other.
Let' say a character survives a fight against a Vampire (B1 pg.270) (energy drain ability), a Vrolikai (B2 pg.81) (black flame knives ability) and a Jiang Shi (B3 pg. 279) (drain chi ability) but while in the fight she recieved 4 negative levels from the vampire, 1 permanent negative level from the Vrolikai and 2 negative levels from the Jiang Shi.
The next day the character rolls his saving throws:
- She doesn't roll for the negative level from the Vrolikai since is permanent.
- She rolls once for each of the 4 negative levels bestowed by the vampire. If she succeeds, that negative level is removed, but if she fails it turns into a permanent negative level.
- She also rolls once for each of the 2 negative levels gained from the jiang shi's attacks. If she succeeds, that negative level is removed, if she fails however nothing happens, she keeps the negative level but can try another Saving Throw the next day.