I am sure there are threads out there but my search-fu blows. How useful is metamagic and what are your favorite feats? I'm planning to be a PC for the first time in years and will be running a 7th level arcane caster that I'm gathering ideas on the build for.
They can come in very handy depending on what you want to do.
I forgot the one that made all your damage non-lethal, but it is thematic for some characters.
Some other favourites of mine are Quicken (crucial at high levels) and Dazing (it is just amazing when it works).
Well I'm thinking of going wizard. The theme is a guy w/a lot of scrolls; considering taking the scrollmaster archetype. Anyway, I thought for a little extra coin he would build wands and scrolls with metamagiced spells. For this reason I thought a wand of Extended Mage Armor would come in handy (pay the extra cash, put it in at 7th level of casting with the metamagic on it and get 14 hrs of armor every morning...)
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Well, Bouncing Hold Person for example is quite nice, requiring 2 saves instead of one on multiple targets. Often spontaneous casters can even benefit more from such metamagiced spells.
Extended mage armor is also very useful, but on higher levels and it only costs you +1 adjustment.
Metamagic kind of gets better with levels because you gain more spell slots later.
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Think of Metamagic as extra options, every metamagic you can apply is a new spell you can cast. Need something really damaging but didn't pick up a new damage spell? Try an empowered spell. Need an extra cast in a turn? Quicken is your go to guy. Need a buff to go all day? Extend makes your long buffs that much longer. Its all about options and the reason the wizard is considered the most cersatile class.
Well I'm thinking of going wizard. The theme is a guy w/a lot of scrolls; considering taking the scrollmaster archetype. Anyway, I thought for a little extra coin he would build wands and scrolls with metamagiced spells. For this reason I thought a wand of Extended Mage Armor would come in handy (pay the extra cash, put it in at 7th level of casting with the metamagic on it and get 14 hrs of armor every morning...)
This seems unnecessarily expensive. You can buy, what, fifty first level wands for the price of a fourth? You would be buying 700 hours of mage armor for the price of 2500...
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I have a few reasons i don't like metamagic, especially for wizards.
First off, there's little point in a wizard using a higher level spell for anything but a higher level spell. Higher level spells have worse effects, do more damage, and have higher save dc's than a metamagicked version of a lower spell. Its pretty rare that some spell, somewhere, wont do what you want and do it better.
Secondly the rods are almost universally better.
1) They work on the fly, so you don't need to plan them ahead of time.
2) Don't take up a feat slot
3) Don't force you to use a higher level slot.
I do like bouncing spell, and persistent spell (which double the odds of the spell working) The magical lineage trait makes these hurt a little less to use if you don't have the rod.
At those levels, I'd just buy some lesser rods (assuming that's an option). You don't burn the feat, but more importantly you don't burn higher-level slots.
I wish they had made meta-magic work that way (limited use vs. higher level slots) in the first place, but that's another thread. :)
Well I'm thinking of going wizard. The theme is a guy w/a lot of scrolls; considering taking the scrollmaster archetype. Anyway, I thought for a little extra coin he would build wands and scrolls with metamagiced spells. For this reason I thought a wand of Extended Mage Armor would come in handy (pay the extra cash, put it in at 7th level of casting with the metamagic on it and get 14 hrs of armor every morning...)
Ouch, you better make lots of "extra coin"...
A 3rd level spell cast at 7th level would cost 3 x 7 x 750 = 15,750 gp (Base price), take 16 days to craft at your own cost of 7,875 gp (cost of materials).
That's just about 1/3 of your total wealth at 7th level.
I bet, if your party is like almost every other party, you'll all be out of spells and low on HP 30 minutes after walking into the dungeon. Who needs 14 hours of armor?
A long time ago I did a whole bunch of math. I compared, for example, the benefit of using Empower and Maximize on low level Cure Light/Moderate Wounds against the benefit of just casting a normal Cure Serious/Critical Wounds in the same slot, and in every case the average healing was better using the appropriate spell rather than the weaker spell with Metamagic.
I did the same thing comparing damage spells of all kinds of levels, applying Empower and Maximimize, against other damage spells that could be learned in the same slot (for example, maximized Fireball vs. Chain Lightning). Just in a raw number comparison, it was always better to put an appropriate spell in the higher slot, rather than the weaker spell with Metamagic.
In fact, since the release of 3.0 some fifteen years ago, I have never met anyone who used those two Metamagic feats, or they tried them and quickly figured out they are sucker bets and abandoned them.
Some others, like Quicken, Silent, and Still, have situational benefits, such as a Quickened Teleport to save the group's life when stuff really hits the fan at epic (or near-epic) levels, or casting silently when stealth is the difference between life and death. I have found that those situations come up so rarely that I can never really justify wasting a feat for them, especially since it's much easier to waste gold on a Metamagic Rod to do the same thing - gold is more plentiful than feats.
In short, my take is that they're almost never worth it and in 15 years of having 2 or 3 or even 4 casters in constant adventures since 3.0 came out, I've maybe seen just a couple players take one or two Metamagic feats and often they later said they wished they hadn't.
We ultimately created some houserules to make them more appealing to casters and now, with houserules, they're finally appealing enough that our spellcasters select them and use them.
I have a few reasons i don't like metamagic, especially for wizards.
First off, there's little point in a wizard using a higher level spell for anything but a higher level spell. Higher level spells have worse effects, do more damage, and have higher save dc's than a metamagicked version of a lower spell. Its pretty rare that some spell, somewhere, wont do what you want and do it better.
Secondly the rods are almost universally better.
1) They work on the fly, so you don't need to plan them ahead of time.
2) Don't take up a feat slot
3) Don't force you to use a higher level slot.
I agree with this. I have trouble seeing the value in the feats, because it costs you a feat, it costs you a higher level spell shot that could also have been used for a more powerful spell, and as a wizard you need to prepare it in advance. It's hard enough to predict which spells you're going to need. Now you also need to predict which spells you'll need to maximize, extend or whatever?
The rods rule. They lack all the downsides, and their limitations are fairly minimal. (Except for a wild-shaped druid. I don't think they can use rods while wild shaped. Though I'm more familiar with 3.5 druids.)
I do like bouncing spell, and persistent spell (which double the odds of the spell working) The magical lineage trait makes these hurt a little less to use if you don't have the rod.
Dazing spell is one I intend to take some day. A dazing fireball sounds like a pretty sweet opening move in combat.
xcept for a wild-shaped druid. I don't think they can use rods while wild shaped. Though I'm more familiar with 3.5 druids
You just need to make sure its not on you when you shift, and that your new form can kinda hold it (like a raccoon,a bear or a velociraptor rather than say a horse or a cow)
I think it depends on several factors:
1) Do you have any spell combos in mind? For example, Dazing Fireballs and Bouncing Hold Person.
2) How often do you use the spells you want to modify? This is a reason why Intensify is a must for a magus as they shocking grasp several times each day.
3) How easy is it to get metamagic rods? Not every campaign has Old Ye Magic Shop on every corner. If rods are hard to come by and you're low on money, metamagic feats could be worthwhile.
4) What other feats are you interested in? If no other feats tickle your fancy, why not take a metamagic feat?
It should also be noted there are some Intensified 1st level spells that are much better than 2nd level spells. Snowball is an infamous example of being better than Scorching Ray.
Metamagic feats, IMHO, work really well for Unviersalists because of their benefit.
A long time ago I did a whole bunch of math. I compared, for example, the benefit of using Empower and Maximize on low level Cure Light/Moderate Wounds against the benefit of just casting a normal Cure Serious/Critical Wounds in the same slot, and in every case the average healing was better using the appropriate spell rather than the weaker spell with Metamagic.
I did the same thing comparing damage spells of all kinds of levels, applying Empower and Maximimize, against other damage spells that could be learned in the same slot (for example, maximized Fireball vs. Chain Lightning). Just in a raw number comparison, it was always better to put an appropriate spell in the higher slot, rather than the weaker spell with Metamagic.
In fact, since the release of 3.0 some fifteen years ago, I have never met anyone who used those two Metamagic feats, or they tried them and quickly figured out they are sucker bets and abandoned them.
Some others, like Quicken, Silent, and Still, have situational benefits, such as a Quickened Teleport to save the group's life when stuff really hits the fan at epic (or near-epic) levels, or casting silently when stealth is the difference between life and death. I have found that those situations come up so rarely that I can never really justify wasting a feat for them, especially since it's much easier to waste gold on a Metamagic Rod to do the same thing - gold is more plentiful than feats.
In short, my take is that they're almost never worth it and in 15 years of having 2 or 3 or even 4 casters in constant adventures since 3.0 came out, I've maybe seen just a couple players take one or two Metamagic feats and often they later said they wished they hadn't.
We ultimately created some houserules to make them more appealing to casters and now, with houserules, they're finally appealing enough that our spellcasters select them and use them.
How many of those casters were Sorcerers?
Although I'm sure your math was correct, when you have so few spells known, Empower/Maximise can really help a Sorcerer increase versatility.
And Quicken, again for a Sorcerer in particular [plenty of spell slots] gives to 2 spells each round - that equals win in my book. YMMV
Well I'm thinking of going wizard. The theme is a guy w/a lot of scrolls; considering taking the scrollmaster archetype. Anyway, I thought for a little extra coin he would build wands and scrolls with metamagiced spells. For this reason I thought a wand of Extended Mage Armor would come in handy (pay the extra cash, put it in at 7th level of casting with the metamagic on it and get 14 hrs of armor every morning...)
I think others have mentioned but I want to reiterate. A wand with Extended Mage Armor on it costs you 10,500gp (5,250 if you make it). You get 50 castings of 14 hour Mage Armor.
Instead, grab a lesser extend meta-magic rod for 3,000gp. Now you can cast 3 different spells under 4th level as if you had the feat. Now you get your 14 hour mage armor, plus whatever else you want... And the best thing is when you level up, now your Mage armor goes to 16 hours. End 16 hours is quite literally your whole adventuring day since you sleep for 8 hours.
What I would do is get a lesser extend rod, cast your day long mage armor buff, and then scribe a level 1 scroll in cases of emergency.
Cost of Rod + scroll: 3,025gp.
Cost of Wand : 10,500gp.
Ok, people keep saying that it's not worth spending a feat on metamagic, but really, what else are you going to spend your feats on? Especially since Spell Perfection, one of the most powerful feats available to spellcasters, requires you to know three metamagic feats.
Metamagic feats can be awesome for the right characters...
As others have mentioned, they are much much better for spontaneous casters due to the increased versatility of using them on the fly (And honestly, the full-round casting time is not as big a deal as it sounds a lot of the time I have found)
Here are my favourites:
-Persistent Spell ! This one gets an exclamation mark because holy moly it is ridiculously good. +2 spell level to make things have to save TWICE... this pretty much doubles the chance of a spell getting through. Best for SoS kind of spells, but useful for almost anything that allows a save.
-Quicken Spell - As others have mentioned, this is preactically required at higher levels, but really isnt much worthwhile until you are casting 6-7th level spells or higher.
Reach Spell - This is one of my personal favourites, and I feel like it is somtimes overlooked. +1, +2 or +3 to spell level to increase range by the same amount (touch to short to medium to long range)
Very nice for using touch spells without getting to close the action, or for some long distance action.
Intensify Spell - this one is a bit more specialized, and you need to have more of a specific plan to make good use of it (fireball, shocking grasp or common uses, especially the latter for Magi)
Dazing Spell - As others have mentioned, this one is fantastic. +3 spell level is steep, but the effect of potentially taking multiple targets out of the action is great (and on an easier-to target Will save if there is no save assocaited, which is nice)
Some metamagic is much more limited in scope, and is way better to get on a rod, these include Elemental Spell, Ectoplasmic Spell and Piercing Spell (to pull out for creatures immune to energy types, incorporeal creatures and creatures with SR, respectively)
Rime Spell - This one deserves special mention... You have to be built more around it (only works for cold spells) but it is REALLY good. For only +1 spell level you get to cause an entangled effect on ANYTHING damaged by the spell, with NO SAVE. Wow.
This is something that is very useful against LOTS of different creatures.. half speed, cant run or charge, - 2 on attack rolls, -4 dex (which of course implies -2 ac as well) and interferes with spellcasting.
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We ultimately created some houserules to make them more appealing to casters and now, with houserules, they're finally appealing enough that our spellcasters select them and use them.Could you elaborate on the house rules you implemented? I'd be interested in using the same in my own game.
Sure, here is the quick and dirty version:
Spontaneous Metamagic: Move action to apply metamagic, Spellcraft check at DC = 15 + adjusted level of the spell, +1 per metamagic feat applied to the spell, +5 each level above the spellcaster’s maximum spell level. If failed, no metamagic can be applied and caster still has standard action. If success, spell can be cast with metamagic applied at no extra levels.
And now here is the long-winded explanation with multiple examples:
Metamagic
First, metamagic can always be applied as per the Core rules. But this is now an optional use for metamagic as there is a new way to apply metamagic.
Metmagic can be applied spontaneously. This means the spells are not prepared in advance, and they don’t take up a higher level slot. Thus, a spontaneous Maximized Fireball still just uses a 3rd level slot.
Here’s how it works:
First, spontaneously applying the metamagic, whatever it is, requires a move action. This move action works just like casting a spell. There are gestures, incantations, and an effort of concentration, and it provokes attacks of opportunity that can potentially disrupt the metamagic just like spellcasting does. Spellcasters can choose to Cast Defensively to avoid attacks of opportunity during this preparation action, in which case the usual Concentration check for casting defensively is required at DC 15 + 2x the adjusted level of the spell. Since Pathfinder concentration checks are d20 + level + ability score, this can be a difficult roll to make. For example, a 5th level wizard with INT 20 trying to maximize a Fireball defensively needs to roll d20 + 5 + 5 to hit a DC of 27, so he will need to roll a 17 or higher.
At the end of the metamagic move action, if the metamagic was not disrupted, the spellcaster needs to make a Spellcraft check at DC = 15 + adjusted level of the spell, +1 per metamagic feat applied to the spell. So, a Maximized Fireball has an adjusted level of 6, so the DC is 22 (15 +6 +1). A Silent (+1) Still (+1) Maximized (+3) Empowered (+2) Fireball has an adjusted level of 10, so the DC is 29 (15 +10 +4).
This sounds complicated, but it’s really simple. DC 15 + adjusted level + number of metamagic feats.
Note that this works like a skill roll, so 20 is not an automatic success and 1 is not an automatic failure.
This all assumes you are capable of normally casting spells of the adjusted level, such as a 12th level wizard Maximizing a Fireball.
Note that it is possible to use metamagic to raise a spell beyond your capacity. So a 7th level mage who can only cast spells up to 4th level could still Maximize a Fireball, even though he cannot actually cast 6th level spells yet. If the adjusted level of a spell is higher than the highest level spell that spellcaster can normally cast, add +5 to the Spellcraft DC for each level over the spellcaster’s maximum spell level. So, our 7th level mage would add +10 to his DC because his Maximized Fireball is 2 spell levels higher than the maximum spell level he can normally cast. Does this make it impossible? A 7th level mage might have 7 ranks in Spellcraft, +3 for Class Skill, might have +3 for Skill Focus (Spellcraft), and might have as much as +6 from his ability score modifier, for a total of about +19 to the roll, thus requiring only a 13 or higher to successfully Maximize that Fireball (the DC is 32: 15 + 6 + 1 + 10).
This all happens during the move action, and all checks (Concentration and/or Spellcraft) are made at the end of the move action.
If the metamagic move action was successful, you still have your standard action to cast the spell with all the metamagic benefits applied.
If the metamagic move action was unsuccessful, either because the metamagic was disrupted, or there is a failed Concentration check to apply the metamagic defensively, or a failed Spellcraft check to apply the metamagic, then the metamagic has failed but, because the spellcaster has not yet started casting the actual spell, the spell has not failed and is not lost or disrupted. In this case, the caster can carry on with whatever standard action he wants to take this round, including casting the same spell or a different spell (but with no metamagic), or he could attack, move, or whatever he might want to do with his standard action.
If the spell takes more than one standard action to cast, you can either start casting it this round (after succeeding on the Metamagic roll) and finish casting it next round, or you can wait to begin casting the spell next round and still apply the metamagic (assuming you rolled successfully this round) to it next round. You can only move while still in the process of applying a successful metamagic to a spell; you cannot take any actions that involve spellcasting, attacking, or using any skills – doing any of this causes the metamagic to fail. If you take any damage while waiting to apply your successful metamagic, you need to make a Concentration check with the usual DC (15 + damage taken) for taking damage during spellcasting – failure means the metamagic fails.
Note that Quicken Spell (cast spell as a free action) and Efficient Spell (cast spell as a move action) both work a little differently. They can both be used spontaneously as described above, but it is a bit riskier since the metamagic happens at the same time as the spell, so if the Spellcraft check fails, or the metamagic is disrupted by anything, then the spell is also disrupted and lost, but the benefit of not using a move action to apply the metamagic is a huge benefit.
Another note: If you are in a place of safety, applying metamagic is essentially automatic. If you wish to apply any metamagic that you are capable of successfully applying (meaning the Spellcraft check is a DC you can actually roll), then you can try to apply over and over until you roll successfully, then cast the spell with the applied metamagic. Rather than make the spellcaster roll over and over, it’s just easier to automatically apply the metamagic. This is only applicable when the spellcaster is in no danger and when there are no consequences for failure. So, it cannot be done in combat, during a chase, or during any other situation that is resolved in melee rounds. Also, it is only applicable when there is no penalty for failure, so for example, it cannot be done to Empower a healing spell on a dying character, even if the fight is over and the spellcaster is safe.
Some examples:
Albert is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing somewhere safe so nothing will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize, then rolls a Spellcraft check of DC 22. He succeeds, so on his standard action, he casts his Maximized Fireball.
Bill is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing somewhere safe so nothing will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize, then rolls a Spellcraft check of DC 22. He fails this roll, so he loses the Maximize. On his standard action, he can cast a normal Fireball, or cast something else, or move, or do whatever he wants.
Charles is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing in a battle next to a bad guy who will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize but applies it defensively. He needs to make a concentration check of DC 27 to cast defensively or he will fail the Maximize. He makes it, then rolls a Spellcraft check of DC 22 to apply the metamagic. He succeeds, so on his standard action, he casts his Maximized Fireball (he might want to cast it defensively, since he’s still next to the bad guy, and you never know who has Combat Reflexes).
David is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing in a battle next to a bad guy who will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize but applies it defensively. He needs to make a concentration check of DC 27 or he will fail the Maximize. He rolls a 5, which fails, so he loses the Maximize. On his standard action, he can cast a normal Fireball (might want to cast it defensively since he’s still next to the bad guy, and you never know who has Combat Reflexes), or cast something else, or move, or do whatever he wants.
Edward is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. He is standing in a battle next to a bad guy who will get an AoO. He spends his move action to apply the Maximize but he believes the bad guy will miss him, so he doesn’t apply it defensively. As he starts the Maximize, the bad guy hits him for 13 points of damage. Now he needs to make a concentration check of DC 28 or the Maximize is disrupted by the damage he took. If he fails he loses the Maximize but still has a standard action to do whatever he wants. If he succeeds, he still needs to roll a Spellcraft check of DC 22. If he fails that, he loses the Maximize but still has a standard action to do whatever he wants. If he succeeds, he can use his standard action to cast his Maximized Fireball.
Fred is a level 8 wizard. He wants to Maximize his Fireball. All the same situations that applied to Albert, Bill, Charles, David, and Edward also apply to Fred, but when Fred needs to make the Spellcraft check to apply the Maximize, his DC is 32 because a Maximized Fireball is a level 6 spell and Fred can only cast level 4 spells, so he must add +5 for each level the Maximized Fireball exceeds his highest level.
Gary is a level 12 wizard. He wants to Quicken his Fireball to cast it as a swift action. He does not need to worry about AoO since casting a Quickened spell never provokes an AoO. He still needs to make his Spellcraft check. Since a Quickened Fireball is a level 7 spell and Gary can only cast level 6 spells, the DC for the Spellcraft check is 28 (15 +7 +1 +5). If he fails this Spellcraft check, he loses the Fireball spell.
Harry is a level 20 wizard. He wants to cast a Maximized (+3) Empowered (+2) Still (+1) Fireball. This makes it a level 9 spell. All the same situations that applied to Albert, Bill, Charles, David, and Edward also apply to Harry. Assuming he doesn’t fail a concentration check or have his metamagic disrupted, he will need to make a Spellcraft check at DC 27 (15 +9 +3). If this succeeds, he can cast his Fireball for 90 HP damage. Alternatively, he can choose to also Enlarge it to level 10. This raises the DC to 34 (15 +10 +4 +5) but Harry should have no problem making that roll. Now the Enlarged Maximized Empowered Still Fireball has 2x the normal range, 2400 feet, nearly half a mile, and still does 90 HP damage.
In case you're wondering, this has been playtested for about 6 years now, mostly using a high-fantasy 20-point-buy campaign (3.5 and Pathfinder). Occasionally it seems a little overpowered.
For example, healers can automatically Empower or Maximize every healing spell out of combat and many of them in combat (assuming they have the feats). This makes for a lot of healing. The upside is that clerics (etc.) spend fewer slots on healing and more slots on other spells - I've never heard of a healer complaining about that.
Another example is that blasters get most of their spells Empowered or Maximized without preparing/using higher level spell slots; the only cost is acquiring the feats and standing still during battles. The upside is that nobody ever plays blasters because they're pathetically weak so now, finally, they're not too pathetic to play.
The real example of overpowered use of this is Quicken. Yeah, that one pushes this house rule over the top. No, you won't see many 5th level wizards blasting a Quickened Fireball because they really aren't going to make that DC 42 Spellcraft check. But, really, certain Quickened spells are useful without this houserule, so being able to do the same things without burning the high level slots can be somewhat OP, so use with caution or consider excluding Quickened Spell from this house rule.
Soupturtle, your experience has been very different than mine, especially and specifically regarding blasters.
Here's a bit of research I did in 2002 (using the 3.0 Player's Handbook and a reference to a Chain Spell metamagic feat from the D&D Tome & Blood splatbook). Since these were all pretty much unchanged by Pathfinder, the research still stands when applied here too.
An Essay on Metamagic
I have tried to find an interest in taking Metamagic feats for my spellcasters, but other than the old trusty “hey, this has a good role-playing angle” I cannot justify almost any Metamagic feat. Quickened Spell, Silent Spell, and Still Spell seem to be the only ones worthy of consideration. The rest just don’t seem worth the increased level, particularly the feats with fairly large level adjustments, nor do they justify giving up a useful feat such as Spell Penetration or Combat Casting or Spell Focus or perhaps even an Item Creation, etc. Some examples:
A Maximized Fireball requires a level 6 slot to prepare and it inflicts 60 damage to all within its area. Compared to the power of Circle of Death, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, or even Summon Monster VI, this is marginally acceptable. Note that the targets will save vs. a level 3 Fireball, somewhat easier than saving against a level 6 Chain Lightning. Also note that the Maximized Fireball requires the spellcaster to give up a precious feat, one that could have been used more wisely, just to cast a Maximized Fireball that isn’t really any better than the other 6th level spells he knows. Given all this, and the fact that just about any spellcaster can get by with the actual 6th level spells, this would be a waste.
An Empowered spell has +50% more damage for only +2 levels. This seems nice. But using the example given in the feat description in the PHB, an Empowered Magic Missile will roll 1d4+1 x1.5 per missile. This would take a 3rd level spell. The caster, at minimum level, could choose to fire three missiles that hit for an average damage of 5.25 HP each, hitting one opponent for about 16 HP damage or three opponents for about 5 HP each. Or he could prepare a Fireball and do 5d6 damage, averaging 17-18 HP damage to one opponent targeted and inflicting the same damage to anyone else near him. Sure, the Fireball allows a save for half that Magic Missile does not. But the Fireball might, if used in the right situation, hit a dozen or more enemies, all for around 17-18 HP each.
An Enlarged spell has 2x its normal range. This seems useful and worth being one level higher. But in practice, many battles are not fought at such range that this feat would be useful, making it unnecessary much of the time. Also, doubling the range of most spells still leaves the spellcaster tragically outgunned by anyone with a bow or crossbow as just about every spell has such a short range that even doubled, it is still only a fraction of the range of a good missile weapon.
A Chained Lightning Bolt spell (per Tome and Blood) requires a level 6 slot. Exactly the same slot as a Chain Lightning spell would use. Comparing the two, assuming a wizard of minimum level (11) to cast 6th level spells, the Lighting bolt would do 10d6 to its target then chain to 11 other targets for half damage each. They would all save against a 3rd level spell for half damage. The Chain Lighting would hit the first target for 11d6 then chain to 11 other targets for half damage. They would all save against a 6th level spell to take half damage. And, to get this weaker version of this spell, the wizard had to waste a feat on it. Worse, a sorcerer had to waste a feat AND turn his spell into a full round spell to cast it. (Yes, I know the Chain Spell feat cannot be applied to Lightning Bolt because Lightning Bolt is an area-effect spell, but it makes for a perfect comparison otherwise due to the existence of the Chain Lightning spell).
A Maximized Cure Light Wounds cast by a 7th level cleric heals 13 HP. A Cure Critical Wounds cast by the same cleric heals 11-39 HP, averaging 25 HP.
An Empowered Cure Moderate Wounds cast by a 7th level cleric heals 13-35 HP, averaging 24. A Cure Critical Wounds cast by the same cleric heals 11-39 HP, averaging 25 HP.
A Maximized Cure Serious Wounds cast by an 11th level cleric heals 35 HP. A Heal cast by the same cleric heals all wounds, possibly hundreds of HP, and also cures blindness, deafness, disease, and even temporary ability damage.
The problem is that these feats require spell slots too high for the actual benefit gained. In most cases I can think of, I probably would not use the Metamagic Feat even if it was just a free class ability, and I certainly would not waste a precious feat learning how to do most of this junk.
Sure, there are a few positive advantages. It would be nice for a sorcerer to just learn Lightning Bolt and never have to learn Chain Lightning, that way he could use one of his valuable spell knowledge slots on something different instead of just upgrading a spell he already knows. Also, some of the Metamagic feats have special adaptations, like casting spells unobserved, or without components, etc. These minor advantages might be worth raising the level of the spell a bit, but still, the cost of a precious feat to do this almost makes them not worthwhile, either.
In short, taking any Metamagic feat means not taking some other useful feat. Even if you occasionally find a good reason for it, it's also very easy to find good feats that you can use ALL THE TIME rather than just occasionally.
That was 11 years ago and I have not seen anyone demonstrate this to be wrong in any game I've played in before or since that time.
Yep, I've seen people try, and I've seen people disappointed, but I've never seen anyone pull off a Metamagic user in such a way to convince me that they are better than the same spellcaster using other feats and relying on the normal spell lists without Metamagic.
Ok, people keep saying that it's not worth spending a feat on metamagic, but really, what else are you going to spend your feats on? Especially since Spell Perfection, one of the most powerful feats available to spellcasters, requires you to know three metamagic feats.
Spell perfection is outside the level range of most campaigns. I don't plan for levels i know i won't hit.
The best thing in my opinion about metamagic is using to do things that would be otherwise impossible.
Maximizing a Fireball is kind of fun, for example, but you could much better things by just casting a 6th level spell...
Whereas using Reach Spell to cast a Bestow Curse wih a 4th level slot from 40ft away without getting in danger instead of trying to get up and touch a big beastie is awesome, and there isnt really an equivalent you could do with a 4th level slot...
Persistent Spell is one of the absolute best metamagics because as far as I know there are basically NO spells that force the opponent to save twice... and it allows you to add that to any spell.
Maximize and Empower spell are two of the very weakest metamgics, because all they are doing is increasing dmg/healing/etc, whereas higher level spells already DO that (usually much more efficiently) So not only are you not getting new options for versatility, you are getting weaker options than you could have for free.
Likewise Intensify is only really good in particular cases.. not as a general use feat.
I rather like extend. It's cheap and useful. Metamagic rods are better if they're available, but in case your local magic mart is out it's still a useful feat.
I rather like extend. It's cheap and useful. Metamagic rods are better if they're available, but in case your local magic mart is out it's still a useful feat.
+1
Yeah Extend Spell is another one of the nice ones, forgot that off my previous list.