Is it just me, or does Thundercaller seem insane?
I've looked it up for a gestalt game, a blue Dragon Disciple/Thundercaller. But 3d8 damage and a stun for one round of performance seems sort of insane, or did I miss something?
Is it just me, or does Thundercaller seem insane?
I've looked it up for a gestalt game, a blue Dragon Disciple/Thundercaller. But 3d8 damage and a stun for one round of performance seems sort of insane, or did I miss something?
3d8 isn't a lot. just 13.5 damage before modifiers. this is before you factor that you have to be 6th level to be a dragon disciple, and maybe a little higher to be a thundercaller.
3d8 isn't a lot. just 13.5 damage before modifiers. this is before you factor that you have to be 6th level to be a dragon disciple, and maybe a little higher to be a thundercaller.Is it just me, or does Thundercaller seem insane?
I've looked it up for a gestalt game, a blue Dragon Disciple/Thundercaller. But 3d8 damage and a stun for one round of performance seems sort of insane, or did I miss something?
Right, but this is 3d8 in 10ft radius with no atk roll or save, stacking with benefits of Dragon Bloodline arcana?
Compared to a buddy who's using an 1d8+stuff hammer I mean.
Next level it's 5d8 + stun and can be done 29 times a day with no concentration checks. Yes it deals half fireball damage, but can't be halved by save.
a lvl 1 barbarian raging can do 2d6 +12 dmg whit a great sword and power attack, so doesn't seem so impressive.
The stun seems useful thou.
That "1d8+stuff" is likely going to far outpace your damage with little effort so long as he has a decent Str bonus and uses Power Attack.
Look at it this way, your 3d8 is an average of 13 or so, with a max of 24.
My level 8 Monk does 1d10+25 on a Power Attack. His minimum damage beats your maximum by 2. And IMO he's not especially uber-optimized for damage, I built him as an all-rounder who could kinda take it, dish it out, and have good saves at the same time.
The Barbarian in our game hits an average of 37-40.
The stun is nice, but the damage is minor in the grand scheme, especially since you need Bard 7 to pull it off (delaying your Dragon Disciple leveling for sure) and every enemy by that level has at least 50 HP.
What's stopping the Bard from wielding a Great Sword with power attack and good str/cha though?
At 11th level, that's a 10ft blast withing 55ft for 5d8 damage and save to resist stun, usable roughly 27 times a day depending on things. This takes no effort on bard's side, he get's it in addition to everything else in place of +2/+4 skill bonus (inspire competence). He's free to grab any weapon and max out str to keep up with melee characters, albeit his BaB is lower.
@Ryanjin
The sample was for gestalt, so he'd be Bard 10|Sorc 5, DD 5.
Right, but this is 3d8 in 10ft radius with no atk roll or save, stacking with benefits of Dragon Bloodline arcana?
Stacking with the Dragon Bloodline arcana? How? Blue dragons are tied to electricity and sound burst deals sonic damage. Further, arcana only apply to spells you cast and Thundercall is a supernatural ability. Unlike the others, I actually caught that this was for a gestalt game, but I have to say, I don't think this is an especially effective gestalt combination.
Compared to a buddy who's using an 1d8+stuff hammer I mean.
If that buddy's hammer can't out damage Thundercall, they need some help. Thundercall is not really meant to deal much damage--Weird Words blows it out of the water, for example (except against DR). The stun is the sweet part. The damage is just skimpy icing.
Next level it's 5d8 + stun and can be done 29 times a day with no concentration checks. Yes it deals half fireball damage, but can't be halved by save.
The real fun is that Thundercall is a bardic performance, so it can be used as a move and eventually a swift action, so three Thundercalls per turn become possible. But then, you're not really using your Dragon Discipline abilities at all, so it still feels wasted on gestalt.
Right, but this is 3d8 in 10ft radius with no atk roll or save, stacking with benefits of Dragon Bloodline arcana?Stacking with the Dragon Bloodline arcana? How? Blue dragons are tied to electricity and sound burst deals sonic damage. Further, arcana only apply to spells you cast and Thundercall is a supernatural ability. Unlike the others, I actually caught that this was for a gestalt game, but I have to say, I don't think this is an especially effective gestalt combination.
Compared to a buddy who's using an 1d8+stuff hammer I mean.If that buddy's hammer can't out damage Thundercall, they need some help. Thundercall is not really meant to deal much damage--Weird Words blows it out of the water, for example (except against DR). The stun is the sweet part. The damage is just skimpy icing.
Next level it's 5d8 + stun and can be done 29 times a day with no concentration checks. Yes it deals half fireball damage, but can't be halved by save.The real fun is that Thundercall is a bardic performance, so it can be used as a move and eventually a swift action, so three Thundercalls per turn become possible. But then, you're not really using your Dragon Discipline abilities at all, so it still feels wasted on gestalt.
My bad, misread the arcana combo. So a 5d8, 10ft burst is weak compared to melee of the same level, even if they can only get off three attacks if they happen to be in a position to do so. While the bard can do that, and blast four targets fgor 5d8 each should they happen not to be within full-attack range?
Heh, I don't have a head for power levels at all then, I thought 5d8 sonic damage that might stun and can't be halved against up to twelve targets as a standard action seemed a bit strong exchange for Inspire Competence.
While thunder call is nice, in the end it's just sound burst, a spell a bard gets anyway. What makes Thunder callers overpowered is incite rage with a barbarian (or two) on their side. Being able to give barbarians the ability to rage even when fatigued, especially if they have something like spell sunder, is the true power of thunder callers. Imagine a party having to face 3 or 4 high level barbarians with a thundercaller behind them.
I caught that it was Gestalt, I just thought it didn't have any bearing on the argument really.
I've never done PRC's in my Gestalt game, I forgot to factor them in. =/
In any case, 5d8 in a 10 ft burst is still only 22 damage a guy, with possible stun. 12 people is possible, but not likely. Will probably be at max 4.
Meanwhile your Barbarian is dealing 3 attacks at roughly 40 damage a pop, pretty much guaranteeing one guy eats it and another guy is heavily damaged.
Barbarian wins the damage game.
Hell, you beat YOURSELF if you start chuckin' combat spells around like Fireball.
Like I said already, stun is nice. Not nice enough to justify calls of "OP!".
Good, yeah. But Good =/= Needs a nerf.