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The Overrun is not an auto-success, but I either get a charge with sneak attack off on my intended enemy, or a charge with sneak attack off on the enemy I attempted to overrun.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
So, even though that enemy is say, 5 feet in front of me, I still get to charge it. If I do succeed on my overrun, they are knocked prone (you're welcome BSF, you. are. welcome. )
Sorry, that's not how it works, if the overrun is unsuccessful it ends your charge. Once your charge is over you can not make an attack as part of the charge. Since charge is a full round action you have no actions remaining with which to do anything (other than, perhaps, a swift).
You tried to run past the baddie, ran straight into it's chest and got stopped in your tracks instead, your turn is basically over. You do, however, still get a -2 to your AC from the charge when it full attacks you on its turn.
The Overrun is not an auto-success, but I either get a charge with sneak attack off on my intended enemy, or a charge with sneak attack off on the enemy I attempted to overrun.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
So, even though that enemy is say, 5 feet in front of me, I still get to charge it. If I do succeed on my overrun, they are knocked prone (you're welcome BSF, you. are. welcome. )
Sorry, that's not how it works, if the overrun is unsuccessful it ends your charge. Once your charge is over you can not make an attack as part of the charge. Since charge is a full round action you have no actions remaining with which to do anything (other than, perhaps, a swift).
You tried to run past the baddie, ran straight into it's chest and got stopped in your tracks instead, your turn is basically over. You do, however, still get a -2 to your AC from the charge when it full attacks you on its turn.
So what I understand from your talk here is that the first person to claim that they were playing a functional/non-strength rogue was breaking the rules.
Synthesis Summoner -> breaks rules then is super broken
Rogue -> breaks rule and is functional
Hmmmmmmm...
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It says the charge ends. It doesn't say you get the attacks from the charge on the person you failed to overrun.The Overrun is not an auto-success, but I either get a charge with sneak attack off on my intended enemy, or a charge with sneak attack off on the enemy I attempted to overrun.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
So, even though that enemy is say, 5 feet in front of me, I still get to charge it. If I do succeed on my overrun, they are knocked prone (you're welcome BSF, you. are. welcome. )
Hm. I was reading "ends" as "is completed..." But I can certainly see what you're saying. I'm not sure that I agree with your reading of it though.
** spoiler omitted **
There you have it folks, High Skill, Decent AC Rogue, low HP, alpha strike rogue that can knock people the @#$% out for 249 Non Lethal Damage by the end of Round 1.
You have powerful sneak and deadly sneak along with 25 point buy. I am not impressed. I am sure your saves still suck also. IIRC the two sneak abilities are not good.
PS:I said a long time the rogue that does nonlethal damage is better for damage than any other archetype. With an average hit point total of 50 you might not live long enough to do a full round attack.
Hm. I was reading "ends" as "is completed..." But I can certainly see what you're saying. I'm not sure that I agree with your reading of it though.It says the charge ends. It doesn't say you get the attacks from the charge on the person you failed to overrun.The Overrun is not an auto-success, but I either get a charge with sneak attack off on my intended enemy, or a charge with sneak attack off on the enemy I attempted to overrun.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
So, even though that enemy is say, 5 feet in front of me, I still get to charge it. If I do succeed on my overrun, they are knocked prone (you're welcome BSF, you. are. welcome. )
A Combat Maneuver roll is "an attack roll", so if you use your attack roll for overrun instead of a normal attack, you are not granted another attack in its place.
All of that applies to the Barbar.
You still need pounce to be effective...
EDIT: all witch hunter does is make your DPR = the fighter.
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Charge Through actually looks like a pretty terrible feat... You're charging A, but have to beat B's CMD score to do so or else lose your turn and eat -2 AC in full attack range of B, effectively. I'd rather just kill B first, or walk around him calmly or something...
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** spoiler omitted **
There you have it folks, High Skill, Decent AC Rogue, low HP, alpha strike rogue that can knock people the @#$% out for 249 Non Lethal Damage by the end of Round 1.
You have powerful sneak and deadly sneak along with 25 point buy. I am not impressed. I am sure your saves still suck also. IIRC the two sneak abilities are not good.
While I am totally with you on the 25 point buy...Why the hate for Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak? They're just Rogue talents...
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A Combat Maneuver roll is "an attack roll", so if you use your attack roll for overrun instead of a normal attack, you are not granted another attack in its place.Hm. I was reading "ends" as "is completed..." But I can certainly see what you're saying. I'm not sure that I agree with your reading of it though.It says the charge ends. It doesn't say you get the attacks from the charge on the person you failed to overrun.The Overrun is not an auto-success, but I either get a charge with sneak attack off on my intended enemy, or a charge with sneak attack off on the enemy I attempted to overrun.
Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
So, even though that enemy is say, 5 feet in front of me, I still get to charge it. If I do succeed on my overrun, they are knocked prone (you're welcome BSF, you. are. welcome. )
Even if said combat maneuver is a free action?
All of that applies to the Barbar.
You still need pounce to be effective...
EDIT: all witch hunter does is make your DPR = the fighter.
Fighter has better damage per swing that a Barbarian with equivalent strength and weapon without Witch Hunter / against foes WH doesn't apply to, yes. The key to Barbarian out-damaging the Fighter is pouncng, and Come and Get Me. The latter of which can potentially give him several attacks more than the Fighter gets. Quantity over quality. Or as the orc Barbarians refer to it, "more dakka."
While I am totally with you on the 25 point buy...Why the hate for Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak? They're just Rogue talents...** spoiler omitted **
There you have it folks, High Skill, Decent AC Rogue, low HP, alpha strike rogue that can knock people the @#$% out for 249 Non Lethal Damage by the end of Round 1.
You have powerful sneak and deadly sneak along with 25 point buy. I am not impressed. I am sure your saves still suck also. IIRC the two sneak abilities are not good.
If they are the ones I think they are, they look good on paper, but actually make you worse mathematically. I will go check and return, hopefully shortly.
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If they are the ones I think they are, they look good on paper, but actually make you worse mathematically. I will go check and return, hopefully shortly.While I am totally with you on the 25 point buy...Why the hate for Powerful Sneak and Deadly Sneak? They're just Rogue talents...** spoiler omitted **
There you have it folks, High Skill, Decent AC Rogue, low HP, alpha strike rogue that can knock people the @#$% out for 249 Non Lethal Damage by the end of Round 1.
You have powerful sneak and deadly sneak along with 25 point buy. I am not impressed. I am sure your saves still suck also. IIRC the two sneak abilities are not good.
You're taking a minus to hit, in exchange for your sneak attack dice rolling only 3,4 5,6... But it's like Power Attack, you don't HAVE to use it.
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Hm. I was reading "ends" as "is completed..." But I can certainly see what you're saying. I'm not sure that I agree with your reading of it though.Ah that might make the difference. I was reading it as "fails due to inability to complete the stated charge"
Well, ends is a synonym of completes...so I don't think I am entirely off base here. :) But I get your point, man. You may be right, and if I have a GM rule that way, I'll go with it.
Wait, there's still people who don't realize Powerful Sneak at all character levels lowers your damage output, and Deadly Sneak at best comes out about even at near level 20?
We hate them because they're horrific trap options that trick newbies into spending character resources to make themselves worse.
@Wraithstrike
Dude... it's a 20 point buy. I just keep copying and pasting the old stats.
Str 16 10 points
Dex 16 10 points
Con 10
Int 12 2 points
Wis 12 2 points
Cha 7 -4 points
+2 Str (human bonus), +2 strength (Level 4, Level 8), +2 str (crappy belt of STR for good measure)
Human Rogue 10
(20 point buy)
Str 22 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 7
BAB +7
Initiative: +9
Sneak Attack: +5d6
Traits: Reactionary, Killer
Rogue Talents:Combat Trick, Combat Trick, Powerful Sneak, Deadly Sneak
Advanced Rogue Talents:
Feats - Weapon Focus (Sap), Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Stealth), Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting,Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus, Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Skill Points:100
+3 Sap (18k), +2 Merciful Heavy Shield (18k) Cloak of the Elvenkind(2.5k), Belt of Giant Strength +2 (4k) +3 Mithral Breastplate, +8500 GP in "Other Gear"
I am the alpha strike, I start combat.
Surprise Round: Opening Attack (Charge from the darkness with sap) +21 (32.5 20/x2, +45 sneak attack average)
Against an AC 24, that' is (.9(77.5)+(.05)(.9)(32.5))
Average Alpha Strike Damage: 71 Non-Lethal
Round 1, I gain initiative or target denied dex or flanking. We will call it a flat +2 to my attack for any of those to make it easy and average it out.
+17/+12 (1d6+29 20/x2, +45 sneak)
+16/+11 (1d3+1d6+28 20/x2, +45 sneak)
(.7(77.5)+.05(.7)(34.5)) = 54 + 1 = 55
(.65(78.5)+.05(.65)(35.5)) = 51 + 1 = 52
(.45(77.5)+.05(.45)(34.5)) = 35 + 1 = 36
(.4(78.5)+.05(.4)(35.5)) = 31 + 1= 35
Average Round 1 Damage = 178 Non-Lethal
Yeah, they were the ones I was thinking of. They ran the math on another thread, and I confirmed it.
Wait, there's still people who don't realize Powerful Sneak at all character levels lowers your damage output, and Deadly Sneak at best comes out about even at near level 20?
We hate them because they're horrific trap options that trick newbies into spending character resources to make themselves worse.
Except, I double my sneak attack dice while doing nonlethal damage with a bludgeoning weapon. So.... it's worth it.
And PS, It was worth it before.
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Wait, there's still people who don't realize Powerful Sneak at all character levels lowers your damage output, and Deadly Sneak at best comes out about even at near level 20?
We hate them because they're horrific trap options that trick newbies into spending character resources to make themselves worse.
Except, I double my sneak attack dice while doing nonlethal damage with a bludgeoning weapon. So.... it's worth it.
And PS, It was worth it before.
There's no arguing Matthias...They have already decided. :)
@Wraithstrike
Dude... it's a 20 point buy. I just keep copying and pasting the old stats.Str 16 10 points
Dex 16 10 points
Con 10
Int 12 2 points
Wis 12 2 points
Cha 7 -4 points+2 Str (human bonus), +2 strength (Level 4, Level 8), +2 str (crappy belt of STR for good measure)
** spoiler omitted **
Someone did the math on the sap rogue a while ago. That is why I mentioned it before as the exception, and nobody tried to disagree with me.
Charge Through actually looks like a pretty terrible feat... You're charging A, but have to beat B's CMD score to do so or else lose your turn and eat -2 AC in full attack range of B, effectively. I'd rather just kill B first, or walk around him calmly or something...
I'm running a Barbarian that uses it, combined with strength surge and Beast Totem it's really handy for getting pounce on the "boss" and knocking one of its bodyguards prone at the same time.
Can't really see it being much use for most other builds though.
If the Scout Rogue in question took Major magic for True Strike (and preferable convinced the GM to let him take Quicken Spell Like Ability) they could do something similar with it.
There's no arguing Matthias...They have already decided. :)Wait, there's still people who don't realize Powerful Sneak at all character levels lowers your damage output, and Deadly Sneak at best comes out about even at near level 20?
We hate them because they're horrific trap options that trick newbies into spending character resources to make themselves worse.
Except, I double my sneak attack dice while doing nonlethal damage with a bludgeoning weapon. So.... it's worth it.
And PS, It was worth it before.
Actually the math decided, but that was with a rogue doing lethal damage. I am sure the math does not change though.
And PS, It was worth it before.
No, it wasn't. Powerful Sneak increases average SA damage per die from 3.5 to 4. Deadly increases it to an average of 4.5 per die. But you're hitting 10% less often, so ALL your sources of damage (base weapon damage, SA damage, str mod, enhancement, etc...) are eating a -10% to damage. Because they're just plain not applying sometimes when they would have normally.
That is never a worthwhile trade for Powerful Sneak, and takes a lot of SA dice (ie, high levels) and practically no other sources of damage to just break even w/ Deadly Sneak.
The talents are only useful in the hypothetical scenarios of foes that you either can't possibly miss except on a 1 or foes you can't possibly hit except on a 20. Aside from the fact you really shouldn't be facing such extremes, in the former case the fight is going to be a cakewalk anyway and you don't need further overkill and in the latter case, you should be running away, not fighting.
All of that applies to the Barbar.
You still need pounce to be effective...
EDIT: all witch hunter does is make your DPR = the fighter.
Your pounce makes you more effective than the fighter. If a person says, I'm gonna walk away, your fighter is useless. You can't walk away from a Barbarian.
Congratulations you'll have good dpr versus anything that's inordinately stupid. That doesn't rule out all humanoid foes and half the bestiary at all.
Oh and witch hunter gives better DPR than the fighter. Its a larger buff than both of your specialization and furious weapon means that your Rage bonuses will equal the weapon training. (+5/+7 versus fighter +6/+6) Congrats your main shtick will give you 1 more attack bonus and 1 less damage.
You were trying to argue that without pounce a barbar is still better than a fighter. He is not.
+1 to hit is worth far more than +1 to damage. Also fighter is +6/+8, +2/+4 from feats, +4/+4 from weapon training. Without your weapon enhancement a Barbar is +4/+6, +4/+12 with witch hunter working.
Charge Through actually looks like a pretty terrible feat... You're charging A, but have to beat B's CMD score to do so or else lose your turn and eat -2 AC in full attack range of B, effectively. I'd rather just kill B first, or walk around him calmly or something...I'm running a Barbarian that uses it, combined with strength surge and Beast Totem it's really handy for getting pounce on the "boss" and knocking one of its bodyguards prone at the same time.
Can't really see it being much use for most other builds though.
If the Scout Rogue in question took Major magic for True Strike (and preferable convinced the GM to let him take Quicken Spell Like Ability) they could do something similar with it.
True, a Barb could do it.
A rogue might still have trouble w/ CMD even with the +20, and spending a talent and feat just to be able to use another feat that cost a bunch of feats 2/day seems incredibly wasteful, though.
I could maybe see a Monk doing it (Qingong to get True Strike as SLA). At least the Monk can get the full 3 uses/day out of Quicken SLA...
So what you are telling me, is that for a normal rogue (not my non lethal rogue), that it's 2.5 extra damage per rogue talent for a level 10 rogue.
That sounds pretty good to me, especially considering that it will increase every two levels.
What is better for damage for the rogue? +10 damage per sneak attack at level 20, I'd sink 2 feats into that.... sinking 2 talents into that is even more doable.
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So what you are telling me, is that for a normal rogue (not my non lethal rogue), that it's 2.5 extra damage per rogue talent for a level 10 rogue.
That sounds pretty good to me, especially considering that it will increase every two levels.
What is better for damage for the rogue? +10 damage per sneak attack at level 20, I'd sink 2 feats into that.... sinking 2 talents into that is even more doable.
The answer is obviously, play a ranger. Or anything else for that matter.
The answer is obviously, play a ranger. Or anything else for that matter.So what you are telling me, is that for a normal rogue (not my non lethal rogue), that it's 2.5 extra damage per rogue talent for a level 10 rogue.
That sounds pretty good to me, especially considering that it will increase every two levels.
What is better for damage for the rogue? +10 damage per sneak attack at level 20, I'd sink 2 feats into that.... sinking 2 talents into that is even more doable.
You may need to leave this thread before it corrupts you completely. (It is too late for me!)
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You may need to leave this thread before it corrupts you completely. (It is too late for me!)The answer is obviously, play a ranger. Or anything else for that matter.So what you are telling me, is that for a normal rogue (not my non lethal rogue), that it's 2.5 extra damage per rogue talent for a level 10 rogue.
That sounds pretty good to me, especially considering that it will increase every two levels.
What is better for damage for the rogue? +10 damage per sneak attack at level 20, I'd sink 2 feats into that.... sinking 2 talents into that is even more doable.
Seriously. :)
I sound like my husband. I knew I spent too much time with him!
*shakes fist*
So what you are telling me, is that for a normal rogue (not my non lethal rogue), that it's 2.5 extra damage per rogue talent for a level 10 rogue.
That sounds pretty good to me, especially considering that it will increase every two levels.
What is better for damage for the rogue? +10 damage per sneak attack at level 20, I'd sink 2 feats into that.... sinking 2 talents into that is even more doable.
What exactly are you using to achieve this? I think I got lost somewhere. Yes, that is a serious question.
@wraithstrike
Level 10 Sneak attack: +5d6
Powerful sneak makes it so that 1s are no 2s. Meaning the range of damage you can deal is 2-6 (not 1-6).
Average that = (2+6)/2 = 4
Previous Average = (1+6)/2 = 3.5
So, EVERY sneak attack Die on average increases .5 per die.
At level 10, that is 5 dice times .5 damage increase = 2.5 damage.
So, 2.5 damage per dice at level 10 and more as you level (5 at level 10 if you choose deadly sneak as well).
Edit: As sneak attack dice increase, that means that each talent will add +5 damage by level 20.
@wraithstrike
Level 10 Sneak attack: +5d6
Powerful sneak makes it so that 1s are no 2s. Meaning the range of damage you can deal is 2-6 (not 1-6).Average that = (2+6)/2 = 4
Previous Average = (1+6)/2 = 3.5So, EVERY sneak attack Die on average increases .5 per die.
At level 10, that is 5 dice times .5 damage increase = 2.5 damage.So, 2.5 damage per dice at level 10 and more as you level (5 at level 10 if you choose deadly sneak as well).
For minuses to hit which tank your DPR...
@wraithstrike
Level 10 Sneak attack: +5d6
Powerful sneak makes it so that 1s are no 2s. Meaning the range of damage you can deal is 2-6 (not 1-6).Average that = (2+6)/2 = 4
Previous Average = (1+6)/2 = 3.5So, EVERY sneak attack Die on average increases .5 per die.
At level 10, that is 5 dice times .5 damage increase = 2.5 damage.So, 2.5 damage per dice at level 10 and more as you level (5 at level 10 if you choose deadly sneak as well).
Edit: As sneak attack dice increase, that means that each talent will add +5 damage by level 20.
I get that it raises the average to 4. I accounted that in my math when I said the talents were garbage. That -2 to hit kills your DPR, and since iterative attacks get a smaller bonus after the first one or two if you use TWF then the talents do not help.
That is ignoring your strength being 22 instead of having 26 dex.
+1 to hit is worth far more than +1 to damage. Also fighter is +6/+8, +2/+4 from feats, +4/+4 from weapon training. Without your weapon enhancement a Barbar is +4/+6, +4/+12 with witch hunter working.
Marthkus, you're ignoring the fact that "higher damage" is not the same as "more effective".
Fighters do have better AC and DPR (after 9 or so levels, but whatever), but Barbarians have more options both in and out of combat.
Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, 4 skill points per level and having skills such as Acrobatics, Knowledge(Nature) and Perception as class skills is a lot.
The lower AC is more than compensated by larger HD, temporary hitpoints, DR and bonus to all saves (BTW, at mid/high levels, saves become more valuable than AC). Not to mention Beast Totem increases AC as well.
Spell Sunder alone is more powerful than anything a Fighter can do against casters.
Sure, Rage rounds are limited, but does it really matter when you can easily have 20 rounds of rage/day by 6~8th level? That's enough to Rage every round of combat for the day, and unless the GM is being particularly cruel and making every battle a boss battle, chances are the Barbarian doesn't even have to Rage in all encounters, or can at least delay using Rage for 2~3 rounds.
And (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization cost the Fighter 4 of his 11 bonus feats and didn't expan his options in anyway.
Where Fighters really shine, IMO, is for switch-hitter builds. They can be really effective at that and still grab some random Combat Maneuver tricks.
Well, to be perfectly honest, I never read that (about the -2 to hit) before. However, it's nothing that a buff or two can't fix. It gets better as it scales.
That just takes it from AMAZING down to good.
It all depends on what classes are in your party as well. It's classes like the rogue who's dps is increased more than fighters/rangers by party buffs (because if you have 95% chance to hit something, getting buffed doesn't increase THAT part of it at all).
However, my point stands, especially with the sapNshield rogue above. Rogues aren't obsolete and can be loads of fun.
@wraithstrike
Level 10 Sneak attack: +5d6
Powerful sneak makes it so that 1s are no 2s. Meaning the range of damage you can deal is 2-6 (not 1-6).Average that = (2+6)/2 = 4
Previous Average = (1+6)/2 = 3.5So, EVERY sneak attack Die on average increases .5 per die.
At level 10, that is 5 dice times .5 damage increase = 2.5 damage.So, 2.5 damage per dice at level 10 and more as you level (5 at level 10 if you choose deadly sneak as well).
Edit: As sneak attack dice increase, that means that each talent will add +5 damage by level 20.
Except that it doesn't increase the average to 4. It raises it to 3.67.
Without: (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5 average damage per die.
With Powerful Sneak: (2+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.67 average damage per die.
With Deadly Sneak: (3+3+3+4+5+6/6 = 4 average damage per die.
This is with a -2 to hit, which as said above gives you a 10% loss in chance to hit. Assuming you hit on an 11 or better (giving you a 50% chance to hit), this reduces your damage by 20% (2 of your 10 possible hitting rolls now does not hit). Adjusting accordingly in either direction (hitting on a 2 or better, and hitting on an 18 or better), this makes it a 10.5% to 66.7% reduction in damage done. This means that the low end is only just barely better to use Deadly Sneak, and definitely never better to use Powerful Sneak; on the high-loss end, it is not worth it to use either.
As mentioned above, if the penalty doesn't change your chance to hit (due to needing a 0 or better, or needing a 20 or better), then it's going to be better. These are the only situations when it is better to use Powerful or Deadly Sneak.
*Edit* Also, this thread has been a very enjoyable daily read for me. It's highly amusing to see the back and forth on everything.
Well, to be perfectly honest, I never read that (about the -2 to hit) before. However, it's nothing that a buff or two can't fix. It gets better as it scales.
That just takes it from AMAZING down to good.
It all depends on what classes are in your party as well. It's classes like the rogue who's dps is increased more than fighters/rangers by party buffs (because if you have 95% chance to hit something, getting buffed doesn't increase THAT part of it at all).
However, my point stands, especially with the sapNshield rogue above. Rogues aren't obsolete and can be loads of fun.
You will still have a lower to hit than you would otherwise, and you never catch up, so the talents still don't help you.
What would have been a +4 to hit from buffs is now only a +2, as an example.
@wraithstrike
Level 10 Sneak attack: +5d6
Powerful sneak makes it so that 1s are no 2s. Meaning the range of damage you can deal is 2-6 (not 1-6).Average that = (2+6)/2 = 4
Previous Average = (1+6)/2 = 3.5So, EVERY sneak attack Die on average increases .5 per die.
At level 10, that is 5 dice times .5 damage increase = 2.5 damage.So, 2.5 damage per dice at level 10 and more as you level (5 at level 10 if you choose deadly sneak as well).
Edit: As sneak attack dice increase, that means that each talent will add +5 damage by level 20.
Except that it doesn't increase the average to 4. It raises it to 3.67.
Without: (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5 average damage per die.
With Powerful Sneak: (2+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.67 average damage per die.
With Deadly Sneak: (3+3+3+4+5+6/6 = 4 average damage per die.This is with a -2 to hit, which as said above gives you a 10% loss in chance to hit. Assuming you hit on an 11 or better (giving you a 50% chance to hit), this reduces your damage by 20% (2 of your 10 possible hitting rolls now does not hit). Adjusting accordingly in either direction (hitting on a 2 or better, and hitting on an 18 or better), this makes it a 10.5% to 66.7% reduction in damage done. This means that the low end is only just barely better to use Deadly Sneak, and definitely never better to use Powerful Sneak; on the high-loss end, it is not worth it to use either.
As mentioned above, if the penalty doesn't change your chance to hit (due to needing a 0 or better, or needing a 20 or better), then it's going to be better. These are the only situations when it is better to use Powerful or Deadly Sneak.
*Edit* Also, this thread has been a very enjoyable daily read for me. It's highly amusing to see the back and forth on everything.
I assumed he was using both talents also which raises it to 4, but yeah the one talent is 3.67. The same number I got before.
Matthias any rogue you build that does lethal damage with those talents will be better off without those talents.
Because I have some free time I will remove them from your nonlethal build to see what I get.
Standby.
Also, I feel I should mention that just because you're doing double damage (just as nonlethal now), it doesn't make those talents any better. In fact, it only magnifies the problem, because the penalties and bonuses are all relative. The 10.5%-66.7% reduction in damage is still a 10.5%-66.7% reduction in damage, which is a larger penalty than Powerful Sneak ever provides (a 4.86% increase in sneak attack dice), and almost always a larger penalty than Deadly sneak provides (a 14.3% increase in sneak attack dice).
Also note: the damage increase from Powerful and Deadly Sneak only apply to sneak attack dice. They do not increase the base weapon damage or any static bonuses you have from weapon enhancements, added elemental dice, or stat bonuses. So this largely depends on how much of your damage is pure sneak attack, which makes even Deadly Sneak not worth it very quickly, even at the low-loss end.
** spoiler omitted **
There you have it folks, High Skill, Decent AC Rogue, low HP, alpha strike rogue that can knock people the @#$% out for 249 Non Lethal Damage by the end of Round 1.
MEGA. FAIL.
You didn't take an 18 Dex, apparently all Rogues need an 18 Dex or various posters will wail themselves into hysteria because you aren;t giving them an option to play an 18 Dex with 10 Str and still haz mad skillz at melee, they will insist your dude is a Half Orc mindless brute and u r doin it rong.
Well, at level 20, that comes out to -2 to hit for +5 damage for 2 talents. It's pretty much even with power attack for 2 weapon fighters
-1 to hit for +2 damage, mainhand +1 damage offhand. Still worth it on the Sap rogue, and I'd say not as good as other rogue talents beyond specialty builds (like having touch attacks or something). So my sap rogues DPS is looking %10 less across the board. (so 216 damage by turn 1. That is still an unconscious foe or 2 taken out by the first round of battle.
That is no longer as good as I once thought it was. I certainly hope paizo takes away that -2 when they rebalance the rogue.
Still, my previous point stands. Rogues are a combination of trap disarming, tons of skills and damage support (alpha strikes).
Also, I feel I should mention that just because you're doing double damage (just as nonlethal now), it doesn't make those talents any better. In fact, it only magnifies the problem, because the penalties and bonuses are all relative. The 10.5%-66.7% reduction in damage is still a 10.5%-66.7% reduction in damage, which is a larger penalty than Powerful Sneak ever provides (a 4.86% increase in sneak attack dice), and almost always a larger penalty than Deadly sneak provides (a 14.3% increase in sneak attack dice).
Also note: the damage increase from Powerful and Deadly Sneak only apply to sneak attack dice. They do not increase the base weapon damage or any static bonuses you have from weapon enhancements, added elemental dice, or stat bonuses. So this largely depends on how much of your damage is pure sneak attack, which makes even Deadly Sneak not worth it very quickly, even at the low-loss end.
False. The penalty stays the same, the damage increases with level.
-2 Static
.5 (for both now not for each) per sneak attack die which increases.
Which means as you get more sneak attack dice it looks better and better.
Yeah I quite liked that build actually.
Personally though, I find the game tends to be played up to about level 11 or 12 max, so I don't look at designs geared to peak beyond that point.
Rogues are quite ok straight out of the gate, and do well within that range, hence I find them quite reasonable as a class. As you have shown, they are also reasonable beyond that too.