wands, I would say without question. scrolls, I probably would say yes, since it is a crafting.
however, i can definitely see conflicting rules.
both ala SRD:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
but
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.
hmm... i guess strictest RAW... says no. doesn't sit great though... specific > general so...
edit: but wand has a similar line... >.>
even if RAW says possibly no, i would say as long as the other caster had the spell (must be prepared, and cast as normal) and stayed during the full crafting (not resting) then it could be used.
I stand corrected. Full paragraph ala SRD:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
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Except, it says:
In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
And also says:
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
Which implies that having a spellcaster with the spell meets the prerequisite.
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Looking it over again, it _seems_ to be saying that the spell must be provided, and you can't take the +5 DC for not having it like other items.
All other verbiage between crafting scrolls/wands and everything else seems to be identical. So, it seems having a second caster providing the spell would be entirely legit.
Thoughts?
That may be the case. I may be misreading it. If so, that greatly diminishes the value of the Cooperative Crafting feat.
It does, however, help when you're talking about crafting things that require more than a MIC feat and a spell or spells. Providing skill ranks or feats (hello Empowered Spell Shard!) plus a +2 bonus on the check plus doubling the crafting speed is still pretty awesome IMO.
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I've been trying to figure this out myself. On one hand, I would/do allow other casters to supply spells for normal magical item crafting as they could obviously ignore the requirement anyway for +5 DC so "knowing" the spell just makes it easier.
But that line for wands/scrolls/potions saying you have to have it prepared and can not skip it for +5 DC makes me think the creator must have the spell. Which line takes priorty?
For that matter if it is allowed, then I suppose if you had a magic item that allowed you to cast a spell 3 times a day, you could instead create a scroll of it everyday? Or you could use a Wand of Lesser Restoration to create a Potion of Lesser Restoration?
I need to make a decision on this soon, as I either have to allow or not allow a Paladin to help the Wizard create a Wand of Lesser Restoration for a greatly reduced price.
I basically have a unique campaign with a few dozen PC's, so if allowed, any thing can be crafted with only a few PC's taking a few of the needed feats.
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I don't think either takes priority. If you want to make a wand/scroll, the spell has to be provided. The +5 option isn't there for those.
Using a wand to make a potion would be an expensive way about it, spending a charge on top of the potion crafting cost. It would be cheaper to ask a cleric to throw the spell at it.
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Under Creating Scrolls in the PRD it says:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."
It does not say that they may have someone else cast the spell or that they may use it off an item such as a wand, etc. So it seems like the caster doing the crafter MUST know and cast the spell.
So how does that fit with the following from the PRD:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."
Is another spellcaster allowed or is it not?
Under Creating Scrolls in the PRD it says:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."
It does not say that they may have someone else cast the spell or that they may use it off an item such as a wand, etc. So it seems like the caster doing the crafter MUST know and cast the spell.
So how does that fit with the following from the PRD:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."
Is another spellcaster allowed or is it not?
This is my personal opinion, based on interpretation of the text and context of the 3.5 books and the PRD.
The "creator must" language is in every segment of the Magic Item Creation page on the PRD except Rings, though Rings has similar language ("makes the spell unavailable" clause). This is actually the exact same language (nearly, if not exactly verbatim) on all counts - including "creator must", "makes the spell unavailable" and "access through" - as exists in the 3.5e DMG. I'd say that in the absence of a dev ruling to the contrary, the "creator" includes any casters or items providing spells during the creation of the item, and should have been read that way since 3.5.
In short: I'd say yes, unless your GM or a dev says no. If they didn't intend for "access through" to apply to anything but Rings, it should have been written more clearly, and if they didn't intend for the "access through" language to apply at all, it should have been errata'd out by now.
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Another caster can surely cover for the need to have a spell prepared when crafting a wand or scroll:
"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."
I am less sure about using magic items as crafting wands, scrolls, staves and potions require that:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"if you are using a magic item you don't use a spell slot as required.
You can use magic items when making items that aren't wands, scrolls, staves and potions as they don't have that requirement.
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The incoming Ultimate Campaign should have clarifications on making magic items.
Another caster can surely cover for the need to have a spell prepared when crafting a wand or scroll:
"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."I am less sure about using magic items as crafting wands, scrolls, staves and potions require that:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
if you are using a magic item you don't use a spell slot as required.You can use magic items when making items that aren't wands, scrolls, staves and potions as they don't have that requirement.
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The incoming Ultimate Campaign should have clarifications on making magic items.
Actually, re-read this page on the PRD. Every single creation type except Rings has that exact same language. Copied & Pasted below, Spoilered so as not to take up the whole page:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the rod triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the rod's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff 's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required (one for each charge). Material components are consumed when work begins, but focuses are not. A focus used in creating a wand can be reused. The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand's creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
In addition, Creating Rings has half the language:
The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
I recall that some developer or another said that two casters can cooperate to craft a wand or scroll. I'm not sure if it was an official ruling or just a statement of how that individual would rule on it. Perhaps it merits a FAQ answer.
FAQ'd.
What FAQ, where? I have the hardest time finding them. Just to many...
I found a FAQ answer to a slightly different question.
Brew Potion: Can a character with this feat create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it?
No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.
Update: Page 549, in the Magic Item Creation rules, in the second paragraph, change the last sentence to read as follows.
In addition, you cannot create potions, scrolls, staves, wands, or any other spell-trigger or spell-completion magic item without meeting its prerequisites.
—Jason Bulmahn, 07/13/11
I guess that a really pedantic reading might imply that spontaneous casters can't brew potions since the text says "the crafter must prepare and expend the spell" and spontaneous casters generally can't "prepare" spells. That's just being silly though, and I think the altered text on Page 549 is the important part of the FAQ answer from a rules perspective.
The altered text just says that you have to meet the prerequisites for spell-trigger and spell-completion items, not that you can't meet them via another spellcaster or a magic item, which is expressly permitted in some other rules text
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
If access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed I'm guessing that means that a Summoner with Craft Wands and a scroll of True Strike can make a wand of True Strike. I'm also guessing that it means the same Summoner could make a similar wand if a friendly Wizard were willing to cast True Strike for him.
To me this doesn't seem to contradict Jason's new rules text since you're not bypassing the prerequisite, just getting somebody to help you meet it. The idea of a Wizard with Craft Wands making a wand of Summon Eidolon for a Summoner using scrolls to meet the prerequisite seems a little weird, but technically I'd think that could work too. This could allow a Bard with a high UMD skill to make wands of just about anything.
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I recall that some developer or another said that two casters can cooperate to craft a wand or scroll. I'm not sure if it was an official ruling or just a statement of how that individual would rule on it. Perhaps it merits a FAQ answer.
SKR in the post I cited. He used scrolls in his example, but the principle is the same for wands, staffs and potions.
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Actually, re-read this page on the PRD. Every single creation type except Rings has that exact same language. Copied & Pasted below, Spoilered so as not to take up the...Another caster can surely cover for the need to have a spell prepared when crafting a wand or scroll:
"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."I am less sure about using magic items as crafting wands, scrolls, staves and potions require that:
"The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"
if you are using a magic item you don't use a spell slot as required.You can use magic items when making items that aren't wands, scrolls, staves and potions as they don't have that requirement.
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The incoming Ultimate Campaign should have clarifications on making magic items.
Yes, but with staves, potions, wands and scrolls you must meet the prerequisite. With the other items you can bypass it.
As Devilkiller pointed out if it is possible to use a magic item to fulfill the requirements for those items any spellcaster with a decent UMD can make practically any magic item and wands with a few charge left become a great boon, as you can use them to make a new wand of the same kind.
The rules are unclear about this corner case.
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Yes, but with staves, potions, wands and scrolls you must meet the prerequisite. With the other items you can bypass it.
Here's my logic:
1. SKR has stated explicitly that having another caster involved in the crafting can allow you to meet the prereq (as per RAW), and in fact that "you" then means "you and your method of spell access" (in this case, a caster).2. RAW includes the language "or a magic item" in the same passage that SKR confirmed.
3. Hence, by 2 as interpreted by 1, using a magic item also counts as "you", and meets the prereq.
4. The only language involved in spell-completion, spell-trigger, and now potion crafting is that you cannot make them if "you" cannot meet the spell prereq.
5. Interpreting 4 by 3, you can perform spell-trigger, spell-completion, and potion crafting if you use a magic item that causes the spell to be cast, because you can meet the spell prereq.
See where I'm coming from? I'm not asking you to agree with me, just to see my reasoning for why I think magic items should be perfectly kosher by RAW.
@Nuku: This gets fun and a lot less expensive if you can bring in 3.5 material - craft an Eternal Wand, keep it in your MIC toolkit. Need a spell? Grab the appropriate wand!
FAQ'd.
What FAQ, where?
Oh, sorry. I meant: "recommended for addition to the FAQ"; the option at the top of every post. I request-for-FAQing-'d the original post, and in saying so tried to encourage others to do likewise.
The cleric now mumbles angrily and hands the wand over to his wizard friend. The wizard sniffs the wand cautiously and says "this smells like divine magic, i cant use this!"
Not true. Wands are neither arcane nor divine. Staves aren't either. Only scrolls retain the arcane/divine distinction. Anyone who has the spell contained in the wand on their spell list can use the wand, regardless of who made it.
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Another fun situation:
A cleric makes a wand from a domainspell, let's say 'shield' from the defense domain. It's allowed since it's a prepared spell.
Now the same cleric wants to use the wand he just made. Sadly 'shield' is not on the class spell list for clerics so it would require a DC20 Use Magic Device check according to the rules for using wands.
The cleric now mumbles angrily and hands the wand over to his wizard friend. The wizard sniffs the wand cautiously and says "this smells like divine magic, i cant use this!"
If the cleric has Shield as a domain spell, then it is added to their spell list. They don't need to make a UMD check to use that wand.
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See where I'm coming from? I'm not asking you to agree with me, just to see my reasoning for why I think magic items should be perfectly kosher by RAW.
As I said: "The rules are unclear about this corner case". I don't think I have a absolute truth, only a reasonable interpretation of the rules.
Honestly I don't see a real problem in doing that if you are crafting one of the items that don't allow you to bypass a prerequisite and you use a consumable item to fulfill the prerequisite.
The added production cost compensate for the extra flexibility that a spontaneous spellcaster would get.
It change when he use a permanent magic item.
Hopefully the Ultimate Campaign book will clear the doubts.
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Another fun situation:
A cleric makes a wand from a domainspell, let's say 'shield' from the defense domain. It's allowed since it's a prepared spell.
Now the same cleric wants to use the wand he just made. Sadly 'shield' is not on the class spell list for clerics so it would require a DC20 Use Magic Device check according to the rules for using wands.
The cleric now mumbles angrily and hands the wand over to his wizard friend. The wizard sniffs the wand cautiously and says "this smells like divine magic, i cant use this!"
The spell is in the cleric [that specific cleric] spell list. So he would use it without problems.
I am almost sure that there is a FAQ or a post from SKR that say that if a spell is one of your domain spell it is in your spell list.
If the question is "can a cleric with speak with animals as a domain spell cast a divine speak with animals spell?" (which would be the spell scribed by a druid, ranger, or a cleric with the Animal domain) then the answer is yes.
If the question is "can a cleric with speak with animals as a domain spell cast a arcane speak with animals spell?" (which would be the spell scribed by a bard) then the answer is no, because it fails the "spell on the scroll must be of the correct type (arcane or divine)" rule.
Basically, I don't see any benefit in splitting hairs as to whether or not a cleric's domain spells are on her class spell list. It's simpler to say they are on her class spell list.