The Rogue as a tank. Can it be done?

[Chagi]

calagnar wrote:

At level 10 unless your above a 35 AC it means nothing. Most things with a CR 10 have over a +20 to hit. Unless it's a caster. Light armor is worth more as it lest you keep evasion. And at this level that will mitigate more damage then 9 points of AC.

Example
Fire Giant CR 10
Melee greatsword +21/+16/+11 (3d6+15) or 2 slams +20 (1d8+10)

I am very well acquainted with the mechanics of high-level AC. At low levels AC can entirely negate attacks, but by that same token, you don't deal with multiple attacks at low levels, typically. Because attack bonuses rise to the point where they can usually hit you once, regardless, many people undervalue AC at high levels.

The purpose of AC at higher levels is to mitigate the impact of full attacks, not negate them outright.

+16 vs AC 29 requires a roll of 13 to hit.
vs AC 20 it only needs a roll of 4. That's a huge difference.

+11 vs 29, needs a roll of 18.
vs 20, a roll of 9.

By using that example you proved my point.

Also note that I have a minor cloak of displacement, granting always on 20% concealment against attacks.

[Crosswind]

Chagi wrote:

calagnar wrote:

At level 10 unless your above a 35 AC it means nothing. Most things with a CR 10 have over a +20 to hit. Unless it's a caster. Light armor is worth more as it lest you keep evasion. And at this level that will mitigate more damage then 9 points of AC.

Example
Fire Giant CR 10
Melee greatsword +21/+16/+11 (3d6+15) or 2 slams +20 (1d8+10)

I am very well acquainted with the mechanics of high-level AC. At low levels AC can entirely negate attacks, but by that same token, you don't deal with multiple attacks at low levels, typically. Because attack bonuses rise to the point where they can usually hit you once, regardless, many people undervalue AC at high levels.

The purpose of AC at higher levels is to mitigate the impact of full attacks, not negate them outright.

+16 vs AC 29 requires a roll of 13 to hit.
vs AC 20 it only needs a roll of 4. That's a huge difference.

+11 vs 29, needs a roll of 18.
vs 20, a roll of 9.

By using that example you proved my point.

Also note that I have a minor cloak of displacement, granting always on 20% concealment against attacks.

At level 8, my builds were at 36 AC. Pretty sure that by level 10 they'll be at 40 (29k more magic items, a feat, a rogue talent, and an extra sneak attack die). Also, they have 2 built in ways to negate melee attacks that manage to hit.

Rogues can tank.

-Cross

[Chagi]

Crosswind wrote:

Chagi wrote:

calagnar wrote:

At level 10 unless your above a 35 AC it means nothing. Most things with a CR 10 have over a +20 to hit. Unless it's a caster. Light armor is worth more as it lest you keep evasion. And at this level that will mitigate more damage then 9 points of AC.

Example
Fire Giant CR 10
Melee greatsword +21/+16/+11 (3d6+15) or 2 slams +20 (1d8+10)

I am very well acquainted with the mechanics of high-level AC. At low levels AC can entirely negate attacks, but by that same token, you don't deal with multiple attacks at low levels, typically. Because attack bonuses rise to the point where they can usually hit you once, regardless, many people undervalue AC at high levels.

The purpose of AC at higher levels is to mitigate the impact of full attacks, not negate them outright.

+16 vs AC 29 requires a roll of 13 to hit.
vs AC 20 it only needs a roll of 4. That's a huge difference.

+11 vs 29, needs a roll of 18.
vs 20, a roll of 9.

By using that example you proved my point.

Also note that I have a minor cloak of displacement, granting always on 20% concealment against attacks.

At level 8, my builds were at 36 AC. Pretty sure that by level 10 they'll be at 40 (29k more magic items, a feat, a rogue talent, and an extra sneak attack die). Also, they have 2 built in ways to negate melee attacks that manage to hit.

Rogues can tank.

-Cross

Yep, I know that AC 29 is nothing to write home about, and I have already stated that I think that the "build" I posted wasn't up to my own standards. I was pointing out that 20 AC isn't enough for a tank, that it's worth it to invest in it even if you can't hit the 35 AC mark that Calagnar mentioned.

[Nicos]

mmm, I have not read in detail all the trhead but I proppose

Half-Elf scout/thug 10

str 14, dex 20 (24), con 14, Int 12, wis 12, cha 7

Traits
+2 initiative , -1 armor check penalty

Gear:
+2 Silversheen Elven curved blade
+2 mithral breast plate
Craked plae grism Ioun stone (attack)
masterwork tool (intimidate)
+1 ring of protection
+1 Amulet of natural armor
Dusty rose Ioun stoune + wayfinder

Feats and talents:
1. Power attack, Exotic weapon proficiency (elven blade)
2. Finesse rogue
3. Furious focus
4. offensive defense
5. Skill focus (intimidate)
6. Cornugon smash
7. Lunge
8. Weapon Training (Elven blade)
9. Dodge
10. Slow reaction

AC: 29 (10 +8 armor, +7 dex, +1 def, +1 Nat, +1 insight, +1 dodge)

Attacks:
+2 elven blade: +18/+11 (1d10+8 18-20/x2)

TActis: move and atack and deliver sneak damage via skrimisher. Sacrifice 1d6 of sneak attack damage to impose the sickened condition on the target. As the rogue is using power attack he could also impose the shaken condition. With the offensive defense he also gains +4 AC against that particular foe.

Attacks:
+2 elven blade: +18 (1d10+4d6 +8 18-20/x2)

plus the rogue´s efective AC against that monster rise to 37.

Nothing bad I guess.

PS: Note that With some luck in the roll the rogue could frihgten the target.

PS 2: Even if the target is not frighten he gainas -4 to all its saving trhows. if youhave a saver-or-die spellcaster in your group he will htank you for that.

[Psion-Psycho]

Finally got back from work so here is the build i made the other day for this thread late last night.

-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Fighter - Lore Warden, Rogue - Thug

-Stats (20 pt)-
STR 28 (Base 15)(+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item)
DEX 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)
CON 16 (Base 10)
INT 08 (Base 13)
WIS 10 (Base 10)
CHA 20 (Base 14)(+6 item)

AC 41 (+ an addition 4 from combat expertise and an additional 5 from defending for a total of 50, also + 10 more from Offensive Defensive)
Touch 21
Flat - Footed 30

-Class / Feats-
R01 EWP Whip, Dodge
R02 Talent Weapon Training (Weapon Focus Whip)
R03 Whip Mastery
R04 Talent Offensive Defense
F05 Mobility, Spring Attack
F06 Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack
R07 Dazzling Display
R08 Talent Strong Impression (Intimidating Prowess)
R09 Shatter Defenses
R10 Talent Combat Trick (Lunge)
R11 Skill Focus Intimidate
R12 A Talent Improved Evasion
R13 Persuasive
R14 A Talent Entanglement of Blades
R15 Improved Feint
R16 A Talent Feat (Greater Feint)
R17 Skill Focus Bluff
R18 A Talent Skill Mastery
R19 Deceitful
R20 A Talent (w/e u want)

Traits = Bully, Defensive Strategist

-Gear-
+5 Defending Holy Ghost Touch Whip
+5 Mithril Chain Shirt
+5 Shield Cloak
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Natural Armor Necklace
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone)
Belt of Physical Might (Str/Dex)
Headband of Alluring Charisma

-Misc-
Character performs a full-round action intimidate to demoralize all enemy targets within a 30ft radius then proceeds to attack with Whirlwind Lunge Attacks that apply Offensive Defense upon all targets or Entanglement of Blades depending on situation. For single targets move action with a whip attack or full-round action intimidate with full attack next round. Intimidate at cap level is d20+48 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Persuasive +5 Cha +9 Str +1 trait) and bluff is d20+38 (20 ranks +3 trained + 6 skill focus + 4 Deceitful +5 Cha).

[Nicos]

I forgot to add the str bonus to my half-elf rogue. The ral attack routine is

+2 elven blade: +18/+11 (1d10+11 18-20/x2).