My PCs will be entering ancient Azlanti ruins soon, and I want to include undead Azlanti soldiers. The game is E6 and I don't want incorporeal enemies, so I'm going to use a modified version of the Ectoplasmic creature template (one that keeps class levels and intelligence/feats).
So, if you were making three "tiers" of soldiers, one with 2 class levels, one with 4 class levels (midlevel officer types), and the big boss types with 6 class levels, how would you do it?
I want them to be interesting and memorable, with a recognizable fighting style and maybe an exotic weapon choice.
I initially wrote it up with the low level guys being Fighters with Tridents, Heavy Shields, Precise Strike, Expertise, Gang Up, and Shield Wall, so they'd basically fight kind of like Hoplites.
However, I'm tempted to go a different direction with something more exotic. Maybe a weird weapon, like they all have Falcatas, Khopeshes, or Terbutjes? Maybe the level 4 guys should have some kind of leadership or tactical ability, making them warrior Bards or Cavaliers or something?
I don't know, how would you make Azlanti soldiers? What weapons would you give them? What classes/archetypes? Help me brainstorm.
Might want to try the Ask James Jacobs thread. He might be able to tell you what was a common weapon style in Azlanti? I can't recall reading anything that had clues for it, or what, if any, earth nation they're inspired by.
If no one knows or will post what they actually used, and exotic weapon is a good idea to make them stand out.
Khopesh are Osirian/egyptian weapons I think, so probably not that?
Personally, I'd go for a reach weapons for them. They're under utilized.
Maybe the Fauchard.
For classes, I'd make the rank and file fighters and the higher end enemies magus.
Make it your own. I like the idea of trident & shield, but I also don't know much about the culture.
2 lvl - fighters w/ trident & shield, maybe a mancatcher or ranseur for some flare.
4 lvl - cavalier w/ tri-point double-edged sword
6 lvl - magus w/ falcata is solid
That's my opinion for solid builds with some non-traditional flare.
Are you going tridents to tie it with an oceanic theme? I ask as ancient Azlant was a continent. While it was certainly most probably a people that could navigate the seas they weren't exactly a seafaring race and were just as accustomed to living on land as any other. Just something to consider.
Might want to try the Ask James Jacobs thread. He might be able to tell you what was a common weapon style in Azlanti? I can't recall reading anything that had clues for it, or what, if any, earth nation they're inspired by.
He said "We've actually not published much about Azlant so far... a lot of it at this point is left to the GM to develop. Thassilon's really the ancient empire we've focused the most on."
So, I guess he didn't want to give an answer for fear of it being taken as canon.
Khopesh are Osirian/egyptian weapons I think, so probably not that?
Khopesh are Egyptian, but I've not seen any indication that the Azlanti were definitely not proto-Egyptian. I've basically been treating them as a combo of all those ancient cultures (Egypt, Sumeria, Aztec/Mayan, Greek, etc.).
The main key, though, is that it's an usual weapon and could be used for a weird fighting style (Trip weapons are best for drag, reposition, etc.).
Personally, I'd go for a reach weapons for them. They're under utilized.
Maybe the Fauchard.
Not a bad idea--it makes sense for militaries to use polearms. Maybe I'll make two kinds of level 2s.
For classes, I'd make the rank and file fighters and the higher end enemies magus.
Magus
You could use Falcata's due to the whole blade bound.
But Magus is the way to go.
Wow, Magus is a popular suggestion.
Make it your own. I like the idea of trident & shield, but I also don't know much about the culture.
Me neither, I'm just winging it. Trident/shield just seemed like a fighting style real militaries would use (well, as in spear + shield, but trident is a better spear), and it's something almost no PCs use, so it would come across as exotic.
2 lvl - fighters w/ trident & shield, maybe a mancatcher or ranseur for some flare.
4 lvl - cavalier w/ tri-point double-edged sword
6 lvl - magus w/ falcata is solid
That's my opinion for solid builds with some non-traditional flare.
I was leaning towards making the level 4 a Cavalier, though I wanted a substitution for the mount. Maybe I'll just make them that Fighter archetype that gets the "share teamwork feats" ability. I don't know.
And wow, another vote for Magus. I like the idea, for sure, but I will admit I had a vague vision for someone with full BAB who could use unusual manuevers on the PCs, like Riptide Rush with Greater Drag so he can come out from the shield wall and rip a PC away past all his soldiers and behind their lines. Less than full BAB would prevent that. Maybe I'll make two different level 6s...
Are you going tridents to tie it with an oceanic theme? I ask as ancient Azlant was a continent. While it was certainly most probably a people that could navigate the seas they weren't exactly a seafaring race and were just as accustomed to living on land as any other. Just something to consider.
Nah, I went tridents because they're unusual enough to be memorable for the players, but ultimately, they're just "better shortspears."
I'd support magus. The Azlanti have always been flavored as being all kinds of magical. I'd say use the Myrmidarch archetype.
Phalanx fighters with shields and tridents, and have a low-level wizard buffing them.
So, I think I'm going to do the following:
The grunts will be regular Fighters with Tridents and Heavy Shields as I said above.
I think Tier 2 will be Thundercaller Bards--I don't know what weapon to have them wield, though (I may also consider a lower level version of the tier 3s). Maybe the tri-pointed sword or a great steel terbutje.
The PCs will be level 6 with quite a few feats at this point. The typical Patrol will probably be a tier 2 officer with 4-6 tier one soldiers, so the weapon and fighting style needs to compliment them (though obviously, their primary focus will be dropping sound bursts).
Tier 3 will consist of two enemies:
1) A Freebooter Ranger with a Fauchard and Riptide Attack (I'm ignoring the Gozreh thing)--the main tactic here would be having the lower tier soldiers creating a shield wall and then reaching past them and tripping/dragging enemies back behind the wall to separate them from their allies and maul them.
2) A Magus, though after seeing the suggestion above, I'm torn between a standard Shocking Grasp/Frostbiter with a Falcata or a Myrmidarch with snowball and a Slingstaff. Maybe both, but then that might be too many "bosses."
I'd use my Lego collection. It's my best medium.
Seriously though? Use nets and tridents. There's even a feat. They will hate you forever.
I was thinking about freebooter ranger as the tier 2 officers. And phalanx soldiers with fauchard as your tier 1 grunts with one bard buffer grunt with each group. Your tier 3 could be a cavalier that charges through the ranks causing chaos for your group. Trample/ overrun while the minions play mop up.
The armiger class from Super Genius Games might be a good pic for the grunts. They are definitely different from what the PCs will expect,
Wow, that could get a mite ridiculous. They'd be level 2 enemies with ACs of 25 or 26 depending on the 2nd level ability I chose. And they'd be far less of a threat offensively. Hmm, I'll consider it.
Seriously though? Use nets and tridents. There's even a feat. They will hate you forever.
I love the mechanics of that idea--less so the flavor, since trident/net feels too slave/gladiatory to me. However, it's a moot point because the soldiers won't have the 15 Dex required.
I was thinking about freebooter ranger as the tier 2 officers. And phalanx soldiers with fauchard as your tier 1 grunts with one bard buffer grunt with each group. Your tier 3 could be a cavalier that charges through the ranks causing chaos for your group. Trample/ overrun while the minions play mop up.
I looked into Phalanx soldier, but unfortunately, and for a reason I can't fathom, they can't do their signature thing (using a polearm one handed) until 3rd level, and these guys are 2nd.
For the second tier, I was very much torn between Freebooter, Thundercaller, and a Standard Bearer Cavalier, but I ultimately wanted to set up the magic idea with a Bard.
As for the trampling Cavalier, I'm not really feeling the mounted thing for them. I also find it a lot harder to justify an ancient Azlanti mount sticking around in undead form.
I'd say try a double weapon like swords. It's probly the only time they will ever see use. Your freebooter and thunder caller can use them as well. Give them all TWF for free.
I want to suggest clockwork shock troops, with built in spears and shields, but it would likely be overpowered for your purpose.
Another thing you might do, instead of Magus, if you want the flavor that Azlant used magic more, is make fighter/wizards, and just make them only prepare spells that don't have somatic components.
I had a list somewhere, from some design work done on this sort of concept before the Magus was published.
Unfortunately, I seem to have lost that list. The reason it might appeal is that soldiers seem most likely to be in medium armor, but the magus doesn't get that until 7th level. Of course, chain shirts and some description work for that. It also can permit the use of a shield (though so can the Skirnir archetype).
So I think in this setup I would suggest Skirnir Magus. With suitable feats it should give a good feel of heavy infantry with magical capabilities.
Ok, so I went with the following (remember, this is E6, so the tier 3 guys are level six plus 10 extra feats):
Tier 1:
Fighter 2 with Tridents, Heavy Shields, Breastplates, some Javelins, Combat Expertise, Gang Up, Precise Strike, and Combat Reflexes.
Tier 2:
Thundercaller Bard 4 with a Totem Spear, a Chain Shirt, some Javelins, Arcane Strike, Lingering Performance, Alarm, Grease, Silent Image, Vanish, Blistering Invective, and Tactical Acumen.
Tier 3:
Freebooter Ranger 6 with a +1 Menacing Fauchard, a +1 Mithril Breastplate, some Javelins, Power Attack, Great Cleave, Gang-Up, Improved/Greater Trip, Drag, and Reposition, Tactical Reposition, and Riptide Attack.
and
Myrmidarch Magus 6 with a +1 Lesser Designating Sling Staff, a +1 Mithril Chain Shirt, the standard ranged feats (PB, Precise, and Rapid Shot and Deadeye Shot), Ammo Drop/Juggle Load, Intensify and Rime Spell, Irrisen Ice Mage, Magical Lineage, Preferred Spell, and Spell Specialization for Snowball, and some other CL manipulating stuff for cold/conjuration spells.
A typical patrol will consist of 4-6 Tier 1 Hoplites led by a Tier 2 Thundercaller, which should come out to a CR 6-8 encounter.
The Thundercaller will use Alarm to ward areas under his unit's watch. If he can see a fight coming, he'll use Grease in treacherous areas (on bridges) or in chokepoints, Silent Image up walls to hide behind and see through (they can pass through regular walls, but can't see through them), and will cast Tactical Acumen on the round immediately before combat if possible.
Otherwise, their main tactic will be forming a line to block off a chokepoint with the Thundercaller behind. They will either throw javelins to goad the PCs into charging or just phase through the walls to get immediately into melee, and then use Gang-Up, Precise Strike, and Tactical Acumen to wreck anyone trying to fight on their terms.
Obviously, the Thundercaller will be dropping Sound Bursts as much as possible. When the PCs are all within 30', he'll drop a Blistering Invective and then keep the Sound Burst Assault going. The soldiers switch to slams against any PCs that are Shaken by this in an attempt to frighten them. If the PCs seem unaffected by the Sound Bursts, he'll switch to Inspire Courage and if things go badly, he'll Vanish and retreat to warn other patrols.
If the Captain is involved, he comes with a contingent of troops and uses his Freebooter's Bane on whoever looks like the most dangerous melee character/the one most likely to charge while casting Entangle if possible. He'll form up behind his line of Hoplites and attack past them with his Fauchard. If they are fighting in a treacherous location (such as on a bridge), he will attempt to Tactical Reposition them off the side.
His "signature" move involves the wall of Hoplites opening a hole, and then tripping one of the PCs. If the trip lands, the PC will provoke from anyone on the line threatening him. Then he uses Riptide Rush to drag him behind the line (provoking again). The PC is then prone and separate from his allies on the other side, and the Captain will then start Repositioning the guy along the back of the line to draw more and more AoOs.
When the Magus is involved, he casts Mirror Image and Shield, then stays out of range, slinging 10d6 Intensified Snowballs or CL 9 Rime Acid Arrows (via Irrisen Ice Mage). If enemies get close, he has Frostbite, and if things go really south, he can also Vanish and retreat, as the Thundercaller does.
I will admit, these feel really nasty and deadly, but they're well within the rules and the PCs will be level 6 with quite a few bonus feats by that point, so hey, they'll figure something out.
But seriously, Riptide Attack will likely result in a glorious death if it ever lands as I planned.
What do you think? I can give more complete stats if anyone is interested, but I don't really like the standard stat blocks, so my rendition might look confusing to others.
It all looks delightfully devilish! Hope you have loads of fun with this. Still think you should have one of your tier 1s as a bard team leader who uses a long spear behind the shield wall and keeps inspire courage going. This also lightens the load on your thunder caller. Here is an example of rank and file.
Azlanti infantry company:
4 fighters + 1 bard = team
2 teams + 1 thunder caller = squad (squad leader uses vanish to break contact and assist other team or report higher, or fights to the death with remaining team)
2 squads + 1 freebooter = platoon (same tactics as squad leader)
2 platoons + 1 magus = company (company commander is centrally located with 1 team or squad as reinforcements or aids)
This gives you a more military structure to your encounters.
Bump
My Skull and Shackles group is heading into an Azlanti ruin this week and I plan for them to encounter some Azlanti ghosts, as well as morlocks. I'm going to arm the morlocks with some technology I made up that is sort of like a force pike (so magic, ghost touch, and some sonic damage) with reach and the ability to entangle enemies in a sort of force net. Of course, the party will get hold of some of these, which will help them with the ghosts because they have almost no magic weapons. They will be excited, but what they don't know is that the force pike things have to be recharged in this special room every day or so, so when they sail away with these awesome weapons, they will end up with some nicely made staves, quite desirable to the Pathfinder in the party.
This is hugely a side trek from published skull and shackles of course. We are playing a more sand box version.
It all looks delightfully devilish! Hope you have loads of fun with this. Still think you should have one of your tier 1s as a bard team leader who uses a long spear behind the shield wall and keeps inspire courage going. This also lightens the load on your thunder caller. Here is an example of rank and file.
Azlanti infantry company:
4 fighters + 1 bard = team
2 teams + 1 thunder caller = squad (squad leader uses vanish to break contact and assist other team or report higher, or fights to the death with remaining team)
2 squads + 1 freebooter = platoon (same tactics as squad leader)
2 platoons + 1 magus = company (company commander is centrally located with 1 team or squad as reinforcements or aids)This gives you a more military structure to your encounters.
I think that would be extremely overwhelming. The basic team would be CR ~5, the squad would be ~8, the platoon would be CR ~11, and that company would easily be CR 13 or 14. I don't think that's really doable for a party in E6 (especially the party I have: two Rangers, a monk, an inquisitor, and a rogue).
I understand and appreciate the military structure, I just think it's a little much.
I don't think these low level guys really need Inspire Courage going. They're really more dangerous than you might think. These are CR 2s that have 22 AC, and thanks to Gang up, they flank anyone adjacent to their line, so they're looking at +7 to hit and 11 average damage. Against level 6s--that's dangerous already.
Combine that with the Thundercaller stunning and buffing--Tactical Acumen is really nasty in a group with Gang Up. Consider, too, that they can pass through walls (and get easy surprise through Silent Imaged walls) and that they all have constant Air Walk...
Oh, and I thought the Totem Spear did have reach--if it doesn't, it will in my game.
My Skull and Shackles group is heading into an Azlanti ruin this week and I plan for them to encounter some Azlanti ghosts, as well as morlocks. I'm going to arm the morlocks with some technology I made up that is sort of like a force pike (so magic, ghost touch, and some sonic damage) with reach and the ability to entangle enemies in a sort of force net. Of course, the party will get hold of some of these, which will help them with the ghosts because they have almost no magic weapons. They will be excited, but what they don't know is that the force pike things have to be recharged in this special room every day or so, so when they sail away with these awesome weapons, they will end up with some nicely made staves, quite desirable to the Pathfinder in the party.
This is hugely a side trek from published skull and shackles of course. We are playing a more sand box version.
Interestingly, my soldiers are actually for Serpent's Skull. I completely heart the first book, and I love the ideas in book 3, but the execution leaves much to be desired (and books 2 and 4 are a train wreck).
So, I'm removing them from Talzion and replacing them with some Mzali, and I'm removing them from the military district in Saventh-Yhi and replacing them with these Azlanti soldiers.
The magic from the Military Spear and the shocking manner of their death has kept the soldiers going, believing the city (or rather, their district) is under martial rule.
It is actually possible to speak with them and negotiate for peace, etc., but it is very likely they will just see the PCs as an invading force, so they'll definitely get in at least a few fights. Plus, I know my players...
Ok, so, maybe my game is only just barely Serpent's Skull because I'm changing almost everything from the climax of book 1 on, I'm converting it to E6, and concluding with an alternate ending for Book 3, but I still, I like the ideas.
You would never fight more than a team + 1-2. They are all roving scout parties that have one member break contact to join their other team. In fact you can have 1 platoon in a completely different AO that the party will only run into if they hunt for them.
You could also plant patrol maps on a leaders body that gives your party a map of the area, and how to sneak past patrols. It could get overwhelming if the pcs don't handle it right, but I garuntee that everyone will think twice before messing with an azlanti infantry unit.
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I would suggest adding some divine casters to the mix. The Azlanti were accomplished wizards, it's true, but I get the sense that wizards weren't as dominant in Azlant as they were in Thassilon. People forget that part of the reason the aboleths decided to scrap the whole project was that the Azlanti were getting really into religion.
I would suggest maybe replacing the bards with clerics. You wouldnt necessarily even need to make it clear who the clerics' patron is, since the Azlanti probably used somewhat different symbols to represent the gods. I think the Nobility and War domains would make sense, or you could have them be Divine Strategists with just one of those.
Also, if you're going to have the overall commander stay out of melee range anyway, why not just make him a wizard? There's no reason a wizard couldn't also be a soldier, especially if he's an officer. For bonus points, you could deck him out with a fancy hovering metal spellbook and some kind of wondrous item that lets him move around without his feet actually touching the ground. Classy Azlanti loved that kind of thing.
I'm stealing some of my side trek from Serpents Skull since they decided to spend two months trying to get in to a pyramid that was supposed to be set dressing. Also borrowing from From Shore to Sea and Sunken Empires.
I would suggest maybe replacing the bards with clerics. You wouldnt necessarily even need to make it clear who the clerics' patron is, since the Azlanti probably used somewhat different symbols to represent the gods. I think the Nobility and War domains would make sense, or you could have them be Divine Strategists with just one of those.
I understand the flavor reason for this, but I'm not really seeing any mechanical reason to make the switch. Divine Strategist, for example, seems useless to these soldiers, as it trades out healing for an initiative bonus and then gets the ability to buff other divine casters instead of melee guys.
I could do Evangelist, but then I'm looking at essentially the same character. Neither the Nobility domain nor the War domain abilities are better than Inspire Courage, after all, and I get significantly less useful spells for the scenario than the Bard gets.
Oh, and 13 sound bursts per day AND my 2nd level spells vs. up to 3 sound bursts if I don't cast any other level 2 spells...
Also, if you're going to have the overall commander stay out of melee range anyway, why not just make him a wizard? There's no reason a wizard couldn't also be a soldier, especially if he's an officer. For bonus points, you could deck him out with a fancy hovering metal spellbook and some kind of wondrous item that lets him move around without his feet actually touching the ground. Classy Azlanti loved that kind of thing.
While I like the imagery, ectoplasmic creatures already have constant Air Walk, so no need for cool hoverboards. And he's a Magus because he's supposed to be a warrior--he mostly fights with his sling, his spells just enhance that. And while he does try to stay out of reach, he is still very dangerous in melee--staff slings are melee weapons, too, and he has the Close Combat arcana, so he can still Snowball in melee if necessary.
I don't think any level 6 Wizard I make could out blast this magus. And I guess that's the difference here--the Magus is not really supposed to "support the troops" the way the Freebooter and Bards do, it's really supposed to be the other way around--he gets supported by them. With a wizard, the dynamic would be off--he'd basically be enabling the troops to do the killing, and that doesn't have the right feel for what I'm going for here.
They are religious, though, that's for sure, and I will be putting divine Azlanti undead elsewhere for sure--thanks for the inspiration on that.
However, I did want something for the Government district other than serpentfolk. I don't like the concept of degenerate serpentfolk to begin with, and my altered story doesn't include any serpentfolk being aware of Saventh-Yhi or Ilmurea except for Yarzoth (or her apprentice or whatever if the PCs actually manage to kill her--but played smartly, I just can't see that happening). Perhaps I'll include undead Azlanti priest types, and have city was governed by religious types...
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No problem; just trying to throw some ideas out there. I do have one other concern about using undead Azlanti, though...
I'm running Serpent's Skull at the moment myself (my group is about a third of the way through Racing to Ruin), and I'm planning for the exploration of the city to play out in roughly three stages. First, the party arrives and starts exploring, only to discover that the city is inhabited by various bands of colorful creatures. Second, they decide what to do about these squatters and deal with them accordingly. Finally, once they have free reign in at least part of the city, they start finding hints (degenerate serpentfolk, insane ghosts, creepy graffiti, etc) that the ruins hide some kind of dark secrets. Of corse, in my game the main secret is that Saventh-Yhi is built over the site of Ydersius' defeat and a horrifying undergound city of the serpentfolk, but I'm not sure what you're planning to do at the climax of the adventure.
I've been doing my best to emphasize and add to the various bits of foreshadowing included in the first half of the AP so that, when my group finally does stumble across Ilmuria and Vyr-Azul's scheme, it'll hopefully seem like the natural culmination of what's come before, rather than a sudden plot detour. I'm actually really curious to hear more about the direction you're taking the adventure in, since it seems to be quite different from the AP as written. :)
No problem; just trying to throw some ideas out there. I do have one other concern about using undead Azlanti, though...
** spoiler omitted **
My intention is that Yarzoth almost certainly escapes Smuggler's Shiv. The PCs will do one of two things:
1) Go to Talzion on their own, following in the footsteps of the Azlanti
2) Dick around in Eledar until they find out someone is making an expedition to Talzion (i.e. it's Yarzoth--or if she died, her apprentice or something like that, I'll have to figure something out--but they won't necessarily know that), and they'll either want to join or get their first because they'll suspect Yarzoth.
So, either way, they're heading to Talzion. I'm pretty much dumping the factions for the most part--I find them a silly distraction and I prefer the PCs to be rugged individualists anyway.
I'm going to throw out most of Race to Ruin. I don't run railroads. They'll plot their own course and that'll determine what they deal with. I'll use some of encounters I liked (the shadow demon, the necromancer, etc.), but otherwise, skim over the journey a lot more.
The biggest change will be my focus on the Mzali. I like them and the themes they bring, so they'll be involved. I'm deciding their mummy child king was Azlanti and is having his people look for Saventh-Yhi, because, while his mind is foggy, he thinks there was a weapon there that can be used against the colonials (there is a weapon, but it can't be used on the colonials).
So, when the PCs get to Talzion, the Mzali will already be occupying it (again, I hate the Charau-ka). So, they'll be trying to invade/infiltrate the place at the same Yarzoth is doing a far better job of it since she can Dominate person and stuff.
So, they'll probably either confront Yarzoth a second time or find evidence that she's been there. I'll have to come up with an escape plan.
Anyway, they and Yarzoth will be off to Saventh-Yhi and they'll be mostly figuring out what she wants. I'm going to sort of combine book 3 and 4 for the climax, but I'm dumping Eando Kline and company entirely.
There is a portal down to Ilmurea, and they do need crystals from each district to get it to work. However, the portal is the ONLY way left into Ilmurea--there's no tunnels or whatever elsewhere, and the goal isn't Ydersius, it's awakening all the slumbering Serpentfolk in stasis. Decapitating Ydersius was a metaphorical event--Savith actually damaged the portal and trapped the majority of the Serpentfolk underground, thus "cutting the head off of the serpent."
Saventh-Yhi was built to guard the portal and the spears that drill down were actually designed to destroy Ilmurea once and for all when activated (not just make a corkscrew path for an army (seriously, what the hell? And how did they descend from the cavern ceiling to the floor anyway?). However, people still lived there and they were loathe to destroy their own city in the process, the serpentfolk were trapped, and then Earthfall, etc., so the weapon was never activated.
Essentially, my climax is the PCs and Yarzoth racing each other through the ruins trying to understand what went on, collecting/preventing the collection of the gems for the portal, and ultimately discovering and activating the spears to destroy Saventh-Yhi and Ilmurea before Yarzoth can awaken her people.
As for how much the undead will know--not much. It's been a very long time for the ectoplasmic soldiers, so they remember their duties and have emotional echoes, etc., but they don't actually have clear memories. The vampires arrived after earthfall, so they have no clue. Etc.
Again, though, this may all change if I need to due to PC action.