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So he has 2 base skill points from his class minus 2, but can't get less than 1 skill point so 1. Then +1 for human for a total of 2
Or
2 base skill points +1 for human minus 2 from INT for a total of 1 skill point
Being Human and favored class bonuses apply after your Intelligence penalty.
Also, if you can't get less than 1 skill point per level, is it just me or lowering INT isn't enough penalizing?
It's just you. That said, this is one of many reasons I don't like point buy--try giving the PCs the choice of a few arrays instead.
Just getting an additional -1 to INT skills isn't all that bad. Kinda like CHA but even less of a drawback since there is way less useful skills in INT for a class with low INT anyway.
Uh, just like every stat. Strength does WAY less for classes that don't care about Strength than Int and Cha do for classes that don't care about Int or Cha.
After so many editions, would be nice if there was no more "dump" stats
I agree completely. But then again, as I said, point buy is the culprit here. There wouldn't be any "dump stat" if you didn't have the ability to dump stats.
@ Gorrath: Different classes have different focuses for a reason; that's what diversifies their gameplay. Why would, for example, an 18 Intelligence and Strength character play a measly Fighter when he would be significantly more effective playing a Magus? Sure, the character being a Magus would be a very powerful melee, but also a very vulnerable one, since they are front-line casters.
As for characters who don't need AC, HP, or Saving Throws, the answer is Primary Casters, really. If the caster is good enough, he shouldn't leave his enemies even a chance to hit him, deal damage to him, or debilitate him, whether through using human(oid) shiel-I mean, party members as lines of defense, or careful planning (and picking) of spells.
I believe the penalties accrued from dumping stats is plenty as is. A character who's Intelligence of 7 isn't going to be too bright, they won't be able to think much outside of character examples like AM BARBARIAN. "AM BARBARIAN, AM SMASH ALL!" is about all you would get from a character with such measly intelligence. You also have your 7 Strength characters, whose best physical capabilities is bench-pressing a blade of grass, and the slightest gust of wind flinging them halfway across the world, your 7 Constitution characters who die by paper cuts, and your 7 Dexterity characters whose form and mobility is akin to that of a stone statue. There are also 7 Wisdom characters who can't tell their left from their right, and 7 Charisma characters who are constantly scorned and viewed as The Ugly Sin of the World, and the dump stats (in my opinion) adequately reflect such concepts.
Not all characters and classes are "Focus one stat, screw the rest," for stat building, and I don't see a single class that has such a goal for the character to be effective. Even so, there is still the right for the players (and GM) to just outright say "You can have 0 Skill Points per level if your intelligence amounts to it," or even go as far to say that you receive negative Skill Points per level that you apply to skills (but look what good that is going to do, since people can just "dump" those skill points on equally useless garbage).
Dump stats can be great RP material, if done right.
Agreed. I always have 1 "dump" stat that is a negative. It's like having a wizard with a negative to STR (in 3.5 Jump is STR based) and simply stating "I don't jump!"
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You still get the minimum skill points provided by your class.
So, Human Paladin with 7 Intelligence only gets 2 skill points from his class, and 1 from being Human, with a total of 3.
I believe you are slightly mistaken. The minimum number of skill points a character can have is 1 per level. +1 for being human, and +1 for favored class. Without putting the favored class bonus into skills, the example paladin would have only 2 skill points per level.
When listing how many Skill Ranks Per Level, the CRB says "2 + Int modifier." If it had said "2 + Int bonus" then your interpretation would be correct.
Unless there is an errata that I am missing.
Modifier and Bonus are interchangable, the major difference between the two is modifier includes both positive and negative numbers, while the other does not.
I am under the interpretation that a character with dumped intelligence would have penalties apply to their base skill points received from the class, but everything else applies afterward. With the example Paladin, 2 - 2 = 1 (minimum), plus the 1 for Human and 1 for Favored Class would still result in 3 Skill Points per level.
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Modifier and Bonus are interchangable, the major difference between the two is modifier includes both positive and negative numbers, while the other does not.
I am under the interpretation that a character with dumped intelligence would have penalties apply to their base skill points received from the class, but everything else applies afterward. With the example Paladin, 2 - 2 = 1 (minimum), plus the 1 for Human and 1 for Favored Class would still result in 3 Skill Points per level.
It is funny, you say that Modifier and Bonus are interchangeable, then explain exactly why they are not.
However, I agree that if the human paladin put his favored class bonus into skills, he would get 3 skill points per level. If he did not, he would get 2 skill points per level. Which is precisely what I said above.
Well, anyway, my point was that every other stats(well not CHA) have their penalty mattering more the lower you go in that stat, but in INT, if you got 9 or 7,or even 5 if you could lower you stat that much, you still get the same amount of skill point and you're still not able to speak languages other than your racial languages.
Kinda more interesting when your choosing your stats and thinking "damn, if I lower that one even more, I'll get more penalty, should I do it?" instead of "Guess I should lower it more since it's gonna give me more points but I'm not gonna lose anything"
A 7 Int paladin that can't make a Knowledge (religion) check in combat to save his life-- No seriously! Save his life and that of his companions because he can't identify that shadowy undead thing that's sucking the life out of the party's rogue is going to very quickly realize that he's going to lose quite a lot very very quickly.
7 Int, for other martial classes, has consequences such as the failure to make (or remember) tactical decisions. I'm not saying they have to role play an idiot, but they should at least express the fallibility of a low intellect and Leeroy Jenkins it up a bit.
If you never require Intelligence or Charisma or Wisdom to ever be important, then players will dump those stats because they can rely on being able to get away with it.
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I've always played Int x 10 as being the approximate IQ of the character. So, a 7 Int would be a 70 IQ, or Borderline Deficient on the Terman scale.
I'd expect a player to roleplay a character with an Int of 7 as though he was mildly mentally retarded.
In some circumstances, it might make for an interesting character, but I would expect the player to play it.
I realize not everyone would use a direct correlation to IQ this way, however.
If you do, it looks something like this:
7 Borderline Deficiency
8 Dullness
9-11 Average Intelligence
12 Above Average Intelligence
13 Gifted Intelligence
14 Highly Gifted Intelligence
15-16 Genius Intelligence
17+ Highest Genius
I've always played Int x 10 as being the approximate IQ of the character. So, a 7 Int would be a 70 IQ, or Borderline Deficient on the Terman scale.
That's nigh on Idiocracy levels of intelligence (or lack there of). I like the statistical approach done here:
INT IQ
3 = 57
4 = 66
5 = 72
6 = 78
7 = 83
8 = 88
9 = 93
10 = 98
11 = 102
12 = 107
13 = 112
14 = 117
15 = 122
16 = 128
17 = 134
18 = 143
I believe that they are only describing the role-playing aspect of low INT, not just the, albeit flawed, point-buy system of dumping on INT. Statistically, by the law of pen & paper, INT doesn't have a strong bearing on martial classes. Role-playing however has everything to do with a dump stat. Mid-battle might require a critical piece of tactical knowledge to address a particular situation, let's say flanking. The fighter, with his 7 INT, has the opportunity to assist the rogue and flank an opponent. How realistic would the dumb brute KNOW to flank as oppose to swing at anything that is swinging at him? Who is to day that he isn't enjoying the violence so much that he stops when the baddies are dead? Yes, you are not very penalized on skill points, but how are you penalized on application?
Also, re-read the Core Rulebook section on skills. Unless I'm missing something, NO where does it state that you get a minimum 1 skill point per level. By that reckoning, you could have negative skill ranks (5 INT = -3; fighter has 2+INT modifier making it -1 rank, then +1 favored making it 0 ranks, then possibly +1 human,giving it a measly +1). Is there an official ruling or am I overlooking something? If not, consider your conudrum rectified.
To Darksol: Modifier indicates a positive OR negative, while bonus ONLY indicates a positive. Same as penalty ONLY indicates a negative. The two are NOT interchangible.
After so many editions, would be nice if there was no more "dump" statsI agree completely. But then again, as I said, point buy is the culprit here. There wouldn't be any "dump stat" if you didn't have the ability to dump stats.
Point buy isn't the culprit.
A Fighter who rolls up 18, 17, 15, 12, 11, 6 is probably going to "dump" the 6 into his CHA or INT.
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Also, re-read the Core Rulebook section on skills. Unless I'm missing something, NO where does it state that you get a minimum 1 skill point per level. ... Is there an official ruling or am I overlooking something? If not, consider your conudrum rectified.
It is under Intelligence in Chapter 1: Getting Started.
It is under Intelligence in Chapter 1: Getting Started.
Thanks.
Citation is: "The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level."
By my understanding, let's maintain the fighter, Skills 2 + INT modifier + 1 favored class + 1 human. I believe the minimum 1 is after ALL the arithmetic is done. INT modifier is -2, then the above example is 2 ranks. INT modifier -3, same example is 1 rank.
Hmm... a character generator seems to confirm your theory. I would say it is a minimum 1 rank after it is all said and done, but the computer doesn't seem to agree. Kind of dumb.
It's a bonus, why would you add it before adding the (negative) modifier?
It's not dumb (though the character is).
Human and favored class bonus give you bonus skill points. It shouldn't matter how many you had before those things.
You're still restricting yourself to a max of 3 skill points per level (possibly more with the right feat or trait, or headband of int, I guess). It just....didn't cost you anything more than a guy with Int 8 or 9. It's not a huge exploit, even 10 int and you see a difference.
After so many editions, would be nice if there was no more "dump" statsI agree completely. But then again, as I said, point buy is the culprit here. There wouldn't be any "dump stat" if you didn't have the ability to dump stats.Point buy isn't the culprit.
A Fighter who rolls up 18, 17, 15, 12, 11, 6 is probably going to "dump" the 6 into his CHA or INT.
Oh, no, I hate rolling, too. I suggested allowing your players to choose from a few different arrays. If none contain dump stats, then there's no dumping.