The monk as he is right now doesn't actually get full BAB flurry, he just gets attack bonus = level -2, with some strange iterative attack progression. That's exactly why I gave the monk a full BAB in my fix, HD-BAB connection be damned.
I am not saying full BAB is a bad idea, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't solve all the monk's problems and it's a big change that Paizo probably won't consider a tweak - as Quintessentially Me points out, Paizo have set out limits they aren't going beyond.
In this thread I'm looking for solutions that will patch the existing monk within limits and not a total redesign.
The AoMF will never be obsolete, because it is an incredible deal for Druids, eidolons, monsters, and anything else with a ton of natural attacks.
The only one it is not a good deal for is the Monk, and other unarmed characters who do not use natural attacks as well. Which...since flurry of blows is the only form of TWF to disallow adding natural attacks afterwards... is mostly just monk.
You can make some nice unarmed Fighter-type builds that chain claws and bite after TWF w/ unarmed, for whom AoMF is also nice.
I am not saying full BAB is a bad idea, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't solve all the monk's problems and it's a big change that Paizo probably won't consider a tweak - as Quintessentially Me points out, Paizo have set out limits they aren't going beyond.
Oh, I agree, full BAB is far from solving all the monk's problems, but it is absolutely essential. Of the few melee damage dealers with 3/4 BAB, the monk is the only one that has no spellcasting or positioning power multiplier; he needs it.
In this thread I'm looking for solutions that will patch the existing monk within limits and not a total redesign.
Sadly, I have no idea what those limits are, and the only inkling I have are the comments in this thread.
The AoMF will never be obsolete, because it is an incredible deal for Druids, eidolons, monsters, and anything else with a ton of natural attacks.
I agree, but Paizo have stated that they will not make it obsolete for the monk, after all it's an amulet of mighty FISTS, not mighty claws or mighty teeth. That's what I'm working with.
I am not saying full BAB is a bad idea, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't solve all the monk's problems and it's a big change that Paizo probably won't consider a tweak - as Quintessentially Me points out, Paizo have set out limits they aren't going beyond.Oh, I agree, full BAB is far from solving all the monk's problems, but it is absolutely essential. Of the few melee damage dealers with 3/4 BAB, the monk is the only one that has no spellcasting or positioning power multiplier; he needs it.
He needs something, I agree, but I do not regard full BAB as essential. Maybe full BAB with monk weapons, but not full BAB per se. I've gone with the DR-bypass as his 'something special' combined with reducing MAD and the enhancement issue.
In this thread I'm looking for solutions that will patch the existing monk within limits and not a total redesign.Sadly, I have no idea what those limits are, and the only inkling I have are the comments in this thread.
They are looking at small tweaks, minor adjustments that can be applied piecemeal if need be.
Paizo won't do it (though SKR also claimed that one of the reasons they wouldn't create an unarmed strike alternative to the AoMF it was that it would make no sense to create a magic item that enhances unarmed strikes but not natural attacks, then Paizo released the Brawling armor property in UE, so whatever), but I think that's kind of a moot point once you're already house ruling in multiple changes to the class that Paizo almost certainly wouldn't use either....and they wouldn't use it because? I'm working within the constraints they have already stated they will not go beyond. If nothing else it allows us to field-test ideas.
There are posts from them admitting the monk is flawed and needed changes from around the time they originally nerfed Brass Knuckles. It took them over 2 years and a fan outcry over their FoB ruling to get even the incredibly minor changes they recently released.
I think you're being incredibly optimistic in thinking that Paizo would consider implementing any of this as they seem to clearly be opposed to making any major changes to their core rules at this point.
I don't think I'll concern myself with "Paizo compatibility" too much at this point.
I don't think I'll concern myself with "Paizo compatibility" too much at this point.
Yes, but the problem comes in with PFS play as well as groups where there is very limited agreement on large scale houseruling. In those situations being able to point to the CRB or official errata makes a huge difference.
And yes, "if the group you are with doesn't play in a way you like, find a new group". At the same time, if your options are limited for some reason then that is no longer an alternative.
This is why I tend not to pay attention to the "just roll your own" crowd. That works in some instances but isn't widely applicable (including in my own case).
Well my shaolin did pretty well as the frontliner for a small party sunday. The party consisted of a rogue, druid, and my monk. They held up well against a small band of hobgoblin warriors.
edit: forgot too mention, This was a dex focused monk (bruce lee inspired) that tends to make good use of his improved stunning fist.
I think you're being incredibly optimistic in thinking that Paizo would consider implementing any of this as they seem to clearly be opposed to making any major changes to their core rules at this point.
...which brings us back to why I stuck with minor changes. I've measured word counts and the like, and kept things simple and short. Paizo have stated that they WILL consider further changes if the monk is still underpowered, and consensus of opinion is that it is. I understand Paizo's caution, I really do, hence play-testing gives us more data to say something is/is not overpowered/underpowered.
Edit: I am giving consideration to amending the ki-strike entry to:
"As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. A ki-strike is the equivalent of a greater magic fang spell cast upon the monk’s unarmed strike, using the monk’s level as the caster level."
This is shorter, easier, and less inconvenient than other options, at the risk of enhancing damage slightly.
I think you're being incredibly optimistic in thinking that Paizo would consider implementing any of this as they seem to clearly be opposed to making any major changes to their core rules at this point....which brings us back to why I stuck with minor changes. I've measured word counts and the like, and kept things simple and short. Paizo have stated that they WILL consider further changes if the monk is still underpowered, and consensus of opinion is that it is. I understand Paizo's caution, I really do, hence play-testing gives us more data to say something is/is not overpowered/underpowered.
Edit: I am giving consideration to amending the ki-strike entry to:
"As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. A ki-strike is the equivalent of a greater magic fang spell cast upon the monk’s unarmed strike, using the monk’s level as the caster level."
This is shorter, easier, and less inconvenient than other options, at the risk of enhancing damage slightly.
With regard to a GMF strike, bear in mind that per the spell description:
This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
So while monks would still get the extra hit, they would actually lose out again against DR for types other than magic.
I think you're being incredibly optimistic in thinking that Paizo would consider implementing any of this as they seem to clearly be opposed to making any major changes to their core rules at this point....which brings us back to why I stuck with minor changes. I've measured word counts and the like, and kept things simple and short. Paizo have stated that they WILL consider further changes if the monk is still underpowered, and consensus of opinion is that it is. I understand Paizo's caution, I really do, hence play-testing gives us more data to say something is/is not overpowered/underpowered.
As I said, you're clearly much more optimistic about the chances of future monk improvements from Paizo than I am, I'll just leave it at that.
With regard to a GMF strike, bear in mind that per the spell description:
So while monks would still get the extra hit, they would actually lose out again against DR for types other than magic.
This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
Ah, but if they bypass DR with their unarmed strike on a one DR point per level basis, as described in my first post at the start of this thread, this is not a major issue. The monk is still the 'hurt everything guy' as intended.
How do your versions of Ki Strike interact with Ki Focus weapons?
Ah, but if they bypass DR with their unarmed strike on a one DR point per level basis, as described in my first post at the start of this thread, this is not a major issue. The monk is still the 'hurt everything guy' as intended.With regard to a GMF strike, bear in mind that per the spell description:
So while monks would still get the extra hit, they would actually lose out again against DR for types other than magic.
This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
Ah, I see. For some reason I took your suggestion of replacing ki strike with the GMF functionality to mean it also replaced your suggestion for the DR penetration.
How do your versions of Ki Strike interact with Ki Focus weapons?
I would say that the enhancement bonus would replace the weapon's bonus if it was greater, in either form, just like casting greater magic weapon on the weapon would.
For the time being I have stuck with the enhancement to hit only. I may yet change this, though, depending on how things pan out.
On to how the monk has been performing lately...
The party have run through several random encounters, and the monk performed pretty well for most of them. Not better or worse than the other characters, just on form - which I would expect anyway at this level. He's levelled up to 4th and taken the barkskin qinggong power after kill-stealing a wyvern: When the rest of the party had whittled it down to 7 hp and it was (at last) on the ground he hit it with a Stunning Fist for 8 damage. Currently he is lauded by the onlookers as "The man who defeats dragons with his bare hands!" and hasn't had to buy a drink at the bar since.
His higher wisdom has really proved useful: Using Snake Style to avoid attacks, having better save DC on Stunning Fist, it's all adding up in sly little ways that are making him just that touch more effective. It's everything I'd hoped it would do.
Happy to hear an update on this. No one is playing a Monk in any of my games but if I run a NPC Monk I'll use your changes to see how they work out.
Kerbouchard
Thank you, I appreciate the support and the feedback.
Last session was straight-forward, with the party chasing down clues. The monk's Perception was handy, but not essential. The party faced two threats, one a flying manticore that the monk really couldn't do much about until one wizard forced it down with a web spell, then he provided flanking support for the fighter to beat it to death. The other was a bunch of ghouls in a hole - summoned monsters and a channelling cleric dealt with them.
In a few session's time the party will be facing creatures with DR...which will be interesting!
Last session was straight-forward, with the party chasing down clues. The monk's Perception was handy, but not essential. The party faced two threats, one a flying manticore that the monk really couldn't do much about until one wizard forced it down with a web spell, then he provided flanking support for the fighter to beat it to death. The other was a bunch of ghouls in a hole - summoned monsters and a channelling cleric dealt with them.
In a few session's time the party will be facing creatures with DR...which will be interesting!
With regard to the manticore (and flyers in general), did you consider shuriken? Would they have been viable even? Or perhaps a better question... do you think you should alter your redesign to allow for improved mechanics at range?
I'm in a CRB-only game with a monk right now. I'm at level 5. That said, we rolled for stats using a very generous method and the GM a) tightly controls magic items and b) has been handing out quite a bit of kit. As a result, my monk is pretty well decked out and able to be pretty effective as is, so I'm not feeling much pain. I'm committing the next few levels to enhancing ranged as we are melee heavy anyway and even though I'm still good in melee, I'm still behind the paladin and barbarian.. literally in some cases. Being able to shuriken-flurry from the second rank will be useful.
So, back to your redesign Dabbler... do you see ranged combat as something you can or should try to tweak?
No, I don't think it's necessary to give the monk extra tweaks against ranged foes. Monks should have flaws, and there are archetypes and fixes available to those that desire better ranged options. This monk had a problem because the manticore used fly-by attacks and stayed out of effective range on the monk's turn, his REAL problem was that he forgot to pack a crossbow, and I see no reason to correct player mistakes, just design ones.
Some feedback I'm aware of regarding the monk:
Now, my background is in usability. From a usability standpoint, the feedback I tend to get is: "this class doesn't play based on my expectations of it." I'm not saying this because I like or dislike the monk. I'm saying it because the monk is just one of those classes that: 1. Causes new players more trouble than other classes, 2. Doesn't play how players envision a "monk" working. That is, the mechanics do not match the expectation and they come across as more complex than they need to be.
Again, I don't hate the monk, and the monk has received some love lately that if someone's going to dip into archetypes and additional books make it fun to play. However, if we are addressing fixes, it would be great if some of the above could be taken into account...though that might require a bigger rewrite.
How the monk is meant to be played is spelled out in the role they are given in the core rulebook. The mechanics do not live up to that hype that the monk will be able to strike enemy vulnerabilities and be skilled in combat. This I took into account in my fixes above.
Just finished another session this evening. First half of the game was Diplomacy-based RP, and the monk's Sense Motive came in handy, but wasn't really essential.
Later, the party encountered a pack of wraith-spawn. It was interesting to compare the various character's and how they performed:
Fighter: took a bad hit, but splattered wraiths left, right, and centre.
Cleric: took a REALLY bad hit at the outset, but responded with spells and channels that really hurt the wraiths.
Rogue: used ghost touch arrows to good effect, took a hit.
Wizard #1: used protective spells to ward herself and boost the party, then summoned allies. Avoided damage.
Wizard #2: buffed friends and used telekinetic fist on the wraiths. Took a hit.
Monk: engaged two wraiths to take the heat off the cleric and wizard #1 and emerged unscathed, but struggled to inflict meaningful damage.
The monk's combat performance was better than the rogue's, but nowhere near the fighter's. While the fighter took a hit splattering wraiths, the monk took no hits. On the other hand, the fighter did the lion's share of the damage to three wraiths, while the monk struggled to do the same to just one.
The monk is now level 5:
Male Human (Taldan) Monk (Qinggong Monk) 5
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 17, flat-footed 16 (+2 Dex, +2 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 39 (5d8+11)
Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +7; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects, +2 trait bonus vs. fear effects
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee +1 Keen Temple sword +7 (1d8+3/17-20/x2) (flurry +7/+7) and
. . Unarmed strike +7 (1d8+2/x2) (flurry +7/+7)
Ranged Masterwork Shuriken +7 (1d2+2/x2) (flurry +7/+7) and
. . Shuriken +6 (1d2+2/x2) (flurry +6/+6)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +3/+3, ki strike, magic
Spell-Like Abilities Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +10 (+12 Grappling); CMD 23 (25 vs. Grapple)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Scorpion Style (DC 15), Snake Style, Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 15)
Traits Deft Dodger, Making Good on Promises
Skills Acrobatics +10 (+14 jump), Climb +7, Escape Artist +6, Heal +5, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (history) +4, Knowledge (religion) +4, Perception +11, Ride +6, Sense Motive +13, Stealth +10, Survival +4, Swim +6
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus +4, fast movement (+10'), ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, stunning fist (stun, fatigue), unarmed strike (1d8)
Combat Gear Potion of cure light wounds, Potion of restoration, lesser, Alchemist's fire, Antiplague (2), Bloodblock (3), Healer's kit; Other Gear +1 Keen Temple sword, Masterwork Shuriken (12), Shuriken (49), Backpack (empty), Bedroll, Flint and steel, Silk rope, Torch, 100 PP, 99 GP, 8 SP, 9 CP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +4 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Barkskin (self only, 1 Ki) (Sp) Self Only. Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Deflect Arrows Deflect an incoming arrow once per round.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+10') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+5) +5 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Making Good on Promises At some point in the past, Professor Lorrimor did you a favor under the condition that he would someday call on you to repay it. After he came to your aid, however, you never saw nor heard from him again, leaving you with a sense of unending anticipa
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Scorpion Style (DC 15) Standard action: Unarmed strike also reduces target's land speed to 5 ft.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 15) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
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Monk Amendments:
Zen Warrior: A monk may choose to use their Wisdom bonus rather than their strength or dexterity bonus for attacks made with special monk weapons, combat maneuvers, or with the monk's unarmed strike.
Added to the Unarmed Strike section:
A monk's unarmed strike treats the hardness or damage resistance (of any type) of a target as less by one point for every level of monk the character possesses.
Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit as a magic weapon. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus to hit.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool, a monk can make one additional attack a round at his highest attack bonus. In addition, he can spend 1 point to move 20 feet in a swift action.
Last session:
The party took on another wraith, and the monk took the short end of the stick this time, losing 5 con in one hit! The cleric, one wizard, the rogue, and the fighter tore the wraith apart in one round, which was fortunate.
The party meandered their way back to town, and through the proceedings of the next day before deciding they had to raid a factory for more evidence. Through the door, and they ran into a variant flesh-golem. NOW the DR-bypass ability finally came into play. Without it, the monk would have struggled to do anything to the flesh-golem. With it, he was punching clear through it's DR and was able to do some damage. Not a lot of damage, but he was doing something as opposed to nothing.
My main issue is that compared to the fighter he's really struggling on damage output. As strength is a relegated stat in terms of importance, and as damage is still important, I'm going to make a change and make the enhancement bonus a complete one rather than just a bonus to hit. Yes, it is stronger, but frankly I can see now that it's needed. it's simpler, and it's not going to break the game.
Hence I am changing the text as follows:
3a) Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus as with the spell magic weapon. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus to hit.
Last session:
The party took on another wraith, and the monk took the short end of the stick this time, losing 5 con in one hit! The cleric, one wizard, the rogue, and the fighter tore the wraith apart in one round, which was fortunate.
The party meandered their way back to town, and through the proceedings of the next day before deciding they had to raid a factory for more evidence. Through the door, and they ran into a variant flesh-golem. NOW the DR-bypass ability finally came into play. Without it, the monk would have struggled to do anything to the flesh-golem. With it, he was punching clear through it's DR and was able to do some damage. Not a lot of damage, but he was doing something as opposed to nothing.
My main issue is that compared to the fighter he's really struggling on damage output. As strength is a relegated stat in terms of importance, and as damage is still important, I'm going to make a change and make the enhancement bonus a complete one rather than just a bonus to hit. Yes, it is stronger, but frankly I can see now that it's needed. it's simpler, and it's not going to break the game.
Hence I am changing the text as follows:
3a) Amending the Ki-Pool entry as follows:
As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to gain a +1 enhancement bonus as with the spell magic weapon. At 7th level this increases to +2, at 10th level, his unarmed attacks are +3, at 13th level +4, and at 16th level his unarmed attacks gain a +5 enhancement bonus to hit.
What I find interesting is that this change is based on your recent encounters which, if I'm not mistaken, were at 5th level. Meaning this adjustment would still only have produced 1 additional point of damage per attack. Depending on ki expenditures, an addition 2-3 points of damage per round.
Can you provide some actual damage done as a point of reference, both by the monk and by the others?
The party fighter got in two hits (one miss, at +12 to hit including flanking) on the order of 25 damage per hit. The monk scored three hits (out of five attacks, attack bonus +9) averaging 6 damage per hit.
I agree that at this level, the difference is small. However, as levels go up the gap will likely grow, and while this will not narrow it significantly alone, it could go a step in that direction. It makes it easier to apply the change too, as was pointed out it is unique in that it's an enhancement bonus to hit only, where they are otherwise to hit and damage.
The monk's thing is punching people. Not delivering sneak attack dice, or skill use, or utility spells, but punching people. They need either full BAB (like a paladin) or near constant bonuses (like a Psychic Warrior or melee cleric), and maybe even both.
I think they can work with minor tweaks, most of what I have seen so far and what I've worked on has indicated that full BAB is not essential provided they have something close to it. Where they get let down is lack of enhancement for the unarmed strike and MAD, both of which sap an already struggling attack bonus.
I'd prefer them to have something like weapon training rather than the current system of pseudo-full BAB, but that's what we have to work with. Paizo are only interested in minor changes to the monk, so I think full BAB is out and even if monks had it the MAD and lack of enhancement would still leave them behind other martial classes.
This thread is concerned with minor changes that do not require large word count that can be tacked on to the existing core monk, not with how the monk might/should look in Pathfinder 2.0.
Full BAB is not essential, but I can tell you right now that if you take the existing monk, replace the full BAB flurry and maneuver abilities with actual full BAB, and the hit die with d10, you will instantly have a better, more playable class.
I would say slightly better, not markedly better.
Flurry of blows - unchanged.
Single attacks - slightly better.
Maneuvers - exactly the same.
Feat pre-reqs - slightly better.
+1 hit point per level - slightly better.
It wouldn't solve the issues the monk has with MAD and enhancement, and that's 3/4 of the problem lies. A big change for no complete fix isn't where I want to go. Paizo aren't going for big changes, so why discuss it?
MAD isn't terrible. The best arrangement is usually Str > Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha, or you can do Dex > Wis > Str > Con > Int > Cha. I'm just saying, going full BAB at least gets them into the ballpark. Why discuss it? Paizo had no problem rejiggering all the hit dice to fit a standardized scheme. Why not just standardize the monk's BAB? Easy fix, solves numerous problems. Monk gets a credible thrown weapon attack, can take decent feats, doesn't whiff quite as much, gets more hit points. That leaves really only enhancement bonuses to deal with, for the most part.
Hi Dabbler,
Would you mind clarifying point for me? In your original post you said:
1) Zen Warrior: A monk may choose to use their Wisdom bonus rather than their strength or dexterity bonus for attacks made with special monk weapons, combat maneuvers, or with the monk’s unarmed strike.
Emphasis mine. Did you mean and, as in the Wisdom modifier completely replaces the Strength modifier for the purpose of all melee attacks and the like (but not damage, as you were clear)?
Or does this mean your monk had to choose which of these three situations would be modified by the Wisdom bonus, a) special monk weapons, b) combat maneuvers, or c) unarmed strikes?I'm following your updates with great interest so I thought I'd check now before trying to apply the changes to my own group.
I would say slightly better, not markedly better.
Flurry of blows - unchanged.
Single attacks - slightly better.
Maneuvers - exactly the same.
Feat pre-reqs - slightly better.
+1 hit point per level - slightly better.It wouldn't solve the issues the monk has with MAD and enhancement, and that's 3/4 of the problem lies. A big change for no complete fix isn't where I want to go. Paizo aren't going for big changes, so why discuss it?
Yes, it's FAR from the only fix required. I mean, PF took the weakest core class in 3E and made it worse while buffing the monsters and several of the other classes. Obviously monk is going to need a ton of help to catch up.
I think the feat pre-reqs is more than "slightly better." Any feat that requires BAB +6 like say...Greater Grapple...is currently a level 9+ feat for monk, now it would be 6th, or more likely 7th due to when feats are gained. That's a big difference. Some people go many sessions between level ups.
It would also improve CMD and AoOs slightly.
MAD isn't terrible. The best arrangement is usually Str > Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha, or you can do Dex > Wis > Str > Con > Int > Cha. I'm just saying, going full BAB at least gets them into the ballpark.
MAD IS that bad, you need two or three good scores (str, dex, wis) and a moderate one (con), while every other class needs at most two good scores (the paladin, str & cha) or one good and two moderate (just about everyone else).
Why discuss it? Paizo had no problem rejiggering all the hit dice to fit a standardized scheme. Why not just standardize the monk's BAB? Easy fix, solves numerous problems. Monk gets a credible thrown weapon attack, can take decent feats, doesn't whiff quite as much, gets more hit points. That leaves really only enhancement bonuses to deal with, for the most part.
Maybe it's worth discussing when they to Pathfinder 2.0, then, but that's not even on the horizon. Right now they are only interested in minor tweaks to fix the monk, and upping them to full BAB isn't that.
Hi Dabbler,
Would you mind clarifying point for me? In your original post you said:1) Zen Warrior: A monk may choose to use their Wisdom bonus rather than their strength or dexterity bonus for attacks made with special monk weapons, combat maneuvers, or with the monk’s unarmed strike.Emphasis mine. Did you mean and, as in the Wisdom modifier completely replaces the Strength modifier for the purpose of all melee attacks and the like (but not damage, as you were clear)?
Or does this mean your monk had to choose which of these three situations would be modified by the Wisdom bonus, a) special monk weapons, b) combat maneuvers, or c) unarmed strikes?
Sorry, that should have been an 'and' not an 'or' - I intended it to mean that Wisdom bonus applies instead of strength bonus at the monk's option to: attacks with monk weapons, attacks with unarmed strikes, and combat maneuvers.
I'm following your updates with great interest so I thought I'd check now before trying to apply the changes to my own group.
Thank you! I hope I'm giving you as much useful information as I'm finding.
Yes, it's FAR from the only fix required. I mean, PF took the weakest core class in 3E and made it worse while buffing the monsters and several of the other classes. Obviously monk is going to need a ton of help to catch up.
To be fair, the monk did get some benefit, but it's pretty clear that it wasn't a high priority. Like many the devs seem to have over-rated the monk's defensive abilities as compared to their offensive abilities, not noticing they had made the paladin substantially better and that some of their minor changes had nerfed many of the monk's abilities.
I think the feat pre-reqs is more than "slightly better." Any feat that requires BAB +6 like say...Greater Grapple...is currently a level 9+ feat for monk, now it would be 6th, or more likely 7th due to when feats are gained. That's a big difference. Some people go many sessions between level ups.
It would also improve CMD and AoOs slightly.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be an improvement, I'm just saying that it's pretty clear that it's too big a fix for Paizo to consider right now, so I see no point in wasting further discussion time on it. Paizo do NOT want to extensively rewrite the statblock of every monk published in existing adventures and supplements, after all, and I don't blame them. Much easier to add a line, say in maneuver master, that the monks level counts as their BAB for feat qualification.
MAD isn't terrible. The best arrangement is usually Str > Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha, or you can do Dex > Wis > Str > Con > Int > Cha. I'm just saying, going full BAB at least gets them into the ballpark.MAD IS that bad, you need two or three good scores (str, dex, wis) and a moderate one (con), while every other class needs at most two good scores (the paladin, str & cha) or one good and two moderate (just about everyone else).
Since Wis and Dex both add to AC, it's not really any worse than being a ranger. If you have a fairly low point buy, you can honestly leave Dex and Con both at 12 and just boost Str as high as it will go, with Wisdom following behind. Later on, you can layer natural armor, armor bonuses, and Dex and Wis boosting items to maintain a competitive AC. You don't need Dex all that much; your Reflex is already good, AC is decent, Acrobatics is a class skill, and initiative is not supreme for you.
Since Wis and Dex both add to AC, it's not really any worse than being a ranger. If you have a fairly low point buy, you can honestly leave Dex and Con both at 12 and just boost Str as high as it will go, with Wisdom following behind.MAD isn't terrible. The best arrangement is usually Str > Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha, or you can do Dex > Wis > Str > Con > Int > Cha. I'm just saying, going full BAB at least gets them into the ballpark.MAD IS that bad, you need two or three good scores (str, dex, wis) and a moderate one (con), while every other class needs at most two good scores (the paladin, str & cha) or one good and two moderate (just about everyone else).
OK, 12 dex, when the ranger has a chain shirt + dex (say the same dex). So unless you have 18 Wisdom (not very likely on 15 point buy) you are WORSE than the ranger.
In fact, you are worse than the ranger in most circumstances of character generation because many rangers won't skimp dex (TWF style for more feats than just the bonus feats, as well as for archery) but have a lower Wisdom requirement (as long as he has 14, he can cast all his spells). So if you skimp wisdom to the same extent as the ranger he will still be two AC points ahead of you, unless you make dex/wis more of a priority than he does - and that means dumping strength and con by comparison.
So "not any worse" up there actually means "significantly worse than the worst AC of all the full BAB classes".
Later on, you can layer natural armor,
Not happening, unless you are a quingong with the barkskin ki-ability, unless you advocate losing the AoMF?
armor bonuses, and Dex and Wis boosting items to maintain a competitive AC. You don't need Dex all that much; your Reflex is already good, AC is decent, Acrobatics is a class skill, and initiative is not supreme for you.
A monk with good dex can with the right gear have a very competitive AC with a fighter. Without it, he's got problems especially with lower hit dice. I and others have crunched enough numbers for me to be certain of this, MAD is a serious problem, the core of which you have not addressed:
The monk needs one maxed out stat to hit with, either dex or strength, and yet also needs the other to be at least moderately good to have a decent AC or damage output. He also needs Wisdom to make up for lack of armour and to boost his ki and other abilities. He needs con more than the ranger because of his lower hit dice.
By transferring the hitting stat to wisdom, though, you only need ONE maxed out stat. Your high wisdom will boost your class powers as well as furnish your AC equal to light armour, and let you actually hit things. Then you have more leeway with dexterity and strength and con.
I don't see a problem with a monk in no armor lagging a point or two of AC behind a ranger. In fact, I assume that's intended.
I don't see a problem with a monk in no armor lagging a point or two of AC behind a ranger. In fact, I assume that's intended.
Some people tell me that monks are just meant to suck, too. I don't buy that either. The monk is a combat class, that means he has to fight. To fight effectively means having others try and hit you, and to avoid being a red stain on the floor, you need AC.
In fact, monk AC is fine as long as they can overcome the MAD requirements of doing so, and this is often used to argue that monks are not underpowered. You have highlighted that if a monk has the means to attack effectively (although still not on a par with the other combat classes, by and large) then unlike those other classes their AC must suffer, and their hit points aren't going to shine either - in short, they are a glass cannon. Only other classes make way better cannons, and aren't made of glass.
What you've just done is highlight MAD, not demonstrate the lack of it.
I don't see a problem with a monk in no armor lagging a point or two of AC behind a ranger. In fact, I assume that's intended.Some people tell me that monks are just meant to suck, too. I don't buy that either. The monk is a combat class, that means he has to fight. To fight effectively means having others try and hit you, and to avoid being a red stain on the floor, you need AC.
In fact, monk AC is fine as long as they can overcome the MAD requirements of doing so, and this is often used to argue that monks are not underpowered. You have highlighted that if a monk has the means to attack effectively (although still not on a par with the other combat classes, by and large) then unlike those other classes their AC must suffer, and their hit points aren't going to shine either - in short, they are a glass cannon. Only other classes make way better cannons, and aren't made of glass.
What you've just done is highlight MAD, not demonstrate the lack of it.
The thing is, not all combat classes necessarily need to have the same strengths and weaknesses. I could see a monk reasonably having lower AC and HP and damage output, if they could overcome those problems in other ways. Namely, my thought is mobility. If a monk 2.0, as it were, could manage to have the mobility class features that it gets work with the FoB/basic PF math Full-attack assumptions, I think it would be able to be a strong class even if numerically it seems weaker.
Monks, in my vision, aren't going to throw out the damage that a fighter could, or have the same AC as a guy in even medium armor, but what they could do is use tactics that make this less of an issue. Sure, they can't hit as hard as fighters, but they could tie down one foe with Stunning fist, and then move between FoB hits to tie down another foe. Or they could move forward to FoB against a foe for several hits, and then step backward to get out of Full-attack range from the foe.
Possible ways to do this is to let a monk add 1/2 the Fast movement speed to his 5-foot step (perhaps as a "as long as a monk has 1 point in his ki pool" thing), and/or letting a monk blow a Ki point to add some distance to his 5-foot step.
I get where you are going, but this isn't going to work without an overhaul of the whole system. Problem is that the system does not support this approach for several reasons:
1) Full attacks are not compatible with movement. Yes, this can be addressed with new abilities, but...
2) Attacks of opportunity when you move through threatened areas, this restricts movement one way or the other because you either get hit or move half speed with acrobatics, which makes the distanced moved an issue...
3) Even if you move and full-attack, without massive damage out put that leaves the enemy able to full-attack you. Without that AC & hit points, you are then a red stain on the floor.
4) The only means to move-attack-move currently is Spring Attack. Single attacks aren't going to win a fight unless they really count, and that doesn't happen with the monk. There are reasons for this: if you can hit without ever being hit back, you can break the game. If you can't, and you don't have the AC & hit points to take that damage, you are dead. I see this as the issue if you move-flurry-move without so much as provoking AoOs.
5) Stunning fist...doesn't work often enough, not with wisdom as a secondary stat, and that's about the only other offensive trick a monk has other than damage (they don't do much) and maneuvers (they aren't actually that good).
So really it's potentially a very narrow balance between broken (not working) and broken (too good) if you go this way.
On the flip side, going the way I am I can see that the monk can get a slight power up by fixing the enhancement issue, a neat little trick that makes them useful by fixing the DR issue, and a significant shift away from MAD by using wis-to-hit that aids their hitting and their AC. With the swift-action movement as well, the monk can actually move and flurry in a limited fashion.
They won't be challenging the fighter for damage output, or the paladin for defences, but they can be on the same playing field without making huge sacrifices for one or the other. They can live up to being able to move rapidly around and be where they are needed and actually achieve something there.
I don't see a problem with a monk in no armor lagging a point or two of AC behind a ranger. In fact, I assume that's intended.Some people tell me that monks are just meant to suck, too. I don't buy that either. The monk is a combat class, that means he has to fight. To fight effectively means having others try and hit you, and to avoid being a red stain on the floor, you need AC.
Right. But there is a hierarchy of AC. Heavy armor is at the top (well, until you hit the Dex cap). Just as a for instance, a barbarian also fights, but will almost certainly have a lower AC than a paladin. A monk's Wisdom bonus is competing, effectively, with light armors. And a monk's AC won't remain static throughout life. If a monk has full BAB, and if they have a high strength, they can bring the same thing to the table that a ranger does.
I don't see a problem with a monk in no armor lagging a point or two of AC behind a ranger. In fact, I assume that's intended.
Logically?
Both are martial classes. In fact, Ranger is technically a spellcaster... And has more HD, skills, and BAB... *cough* Anyway...
You would expect them to compare similarly, then, in combat.
Monk gets class features to improve his AC. Ranger does not have any such class features.
Class features, you expect, make you better than normal. They're supposed to be boons, not nerfs.
So, with no prior knowledge of how the classes actually work, one would actually come to the conclusion that the MONK would have the higher AC value, if anything.
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Quick question, and I'm sure this has been proposed before but I had an idea:
Rigid Training: At 1st level a Monk may select any attribute and add +2 to reflect their dedicated training of mind, body, or soul.
I just thought it would make sense that monks would have trained hard enough at becoming a Monk to receive a +2 to any base attribute (Str,Dex,Con,Int,Wis,Cha). Flavor-wise it should make sense and it would help alleviate some of the MADness.
I don't see a problem with a monk in no armor lagging a point or two of AC behind a ranger. In fact, I assume that's intended.Logically?
Both are martial classes. In fact, Ranger is technically a spellcaster... And has more HD, skills, and BAB... *cough* Anyway...
You would expect them to compare similarly, then, in combat.
Monk gets class features to improve his AC. Ranger does not have any such class features.
Class features, you expect, make you better than normal. They're supposed to be boons, not nerfs.
So, with no prior knowledge of how the classes actually work, one would actually come to the conclusion that the MONK would have the higher AC value, if anything.
One could argue that weapon and armor proficiency are class features too (not on the class features table, no, but weapon and armor proficiencies are the first item listed under the headline class features), and the Medium armor that a ranger gets would make one come to the conclusion that the Monk would not have (at least significantly, if at all) higher AC.
Quick question, and I'm sure this has been proposed before but I had an idea:
Rigid Training: At 1st level a Monk may select any attribute and add +2 to reflect their dedicated training of mind, body, or soul.
I just thought it would make sense that monks would have trained hard enough at becoming a Monk to receive a +2 to any base attribute (Str,Dex,Con,Int,Wis,Cha). Flavor-wise it should make sense and it would help alleviate some of the MADness.
Because putting that on a monk at level one would make monk a dip for every martial ever.
Ahh yes, forgot about dippers. How about level 3?
Right. But there is a hierarchy of AC. Heavy armor is at the top (well, until you hit the Dex cap). Just as a for instance, a barbarian also fights, but will almost certainly have a lower AC than a paladin. A monk's Wisdom bonus is competing, effectively, with light armors. And a monk's AC won't remain static throughout life. If a monk has full BAB, and if they have a high strength, they can bring the same thing to the table that a ranger does.I don't see a problem with a monk in no armor lagging a point or two of AC behind a ranger. In fact, I assume that's intended.Some people tell me that monks are just meant to suck, too. I don't buy that either. The monk is a combat class, that means he has to fight. To fight effectively means having others try and hit you, and to avoid being a red stain on the floor, you need AC.
You mean, "monks must suck" don't you? And you are wrong, there is no intended hierarchy in armour.
Fact is, you CAN get good AC without heavy armour, even if you are not a monk, the system is just designed such that you can't exceed heavy armour's AC this way - but you can match it. Check out the duelist class, as an alternative of how it works.
So it is NOT a given hierarchy that heavy armour beats everything else in AC. AC is not just how much turtle plate you wear, but how hard you are to hit. THAT is where the monk excels, and needs to excel or he's a bloody stain on the wall in any serious fight. Except that this highlights his MAD nature without any clear compensation for it...
Ahh yes, forgot about dippers. How about level 3?
How about a three-level dip? That's still well worthwhile to dip for any combat class.
I get what you are trying to do, but I've looked at this and the system just doesn't work for it, it gets too complex or too broken, so I dropped the idea.
Why, exactly, does a monk need perfect mathematical parity with a Fighter in heavy armor, when a barbarian does not?
Because a barbarian gets great offensive abilities like sundering spells, pre-emptively counter-attacking anyone who melee attacks him, and pouncing? Along with the higher HD, damage reduction, and high saves against magic (if doing superstitious) to make up for the lower AC?
Because a barbarian gets great offensive abilities like sundering spells, pre-emptively counter-attacking anyone who melee attacks him, and pouncing? Along with the higher HD, damage reduction, and high saves against magic (if doing superstitious) to make up for the lower AC?
Which is why I'm arguing that monks can get something similar with mobility. Mobility, in the ways I argued for prior, can provide offensive capabilities (makes full attacking more viable in situations where other classes could not), and defensive capabilities (After full-attacking, moving out of range of a counter-full-attack), and control capabilities (using Stunning fist, to tie down one foe, then moving to use threat of AoO to tie down another, without losing out on Full-attacks)