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Dimension Door trumps spell combat. Your turn ends after you cast the spell, period.
Get the Dimensional Agility feat, and then you can attack after casting the spell.
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Dimension Door trumps spell combat. Your turn ends after you cast the spell, period.
That is not what dimension door states.
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.
Spell combat is a single full round action with multiple components. Nothing is stated concerning termination of ongoing actions.
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To me, this is pretty clear. The spell specifically tells you that the PC can't take any further actions. Period. The Spell Combat entry doesn't state that it supersedes a spell effect. I would rule that it does not. It's a 1st level perk. You already get to cast and make a Full Attack (albeit at -2). Can it be argued that you should get to act after casting a spell that specifically says you can't? Sure, but you aren't winning me over with that argument. It's RAW vs RAI, imo. Teleport has no such verbiage and as such I would allow you to cast Teleport and then Full Attack. The Dimension Door spell is worded specifically. Specifics trump most anything in my book. I would explain it something like this; the Dimension Door spell is lower level and doesn't protect the caster/targets against the disorienting effects of teleportation magics, whereas the Teleport does (by it's absence of a statement that says you can take no actions or that you are disoriented).
Take Dimensional Agility and you're Golden in my book! Or just use Teleport instead...
But that's just me.
It it says you can't take any other actions until your next turn, I'd say you can't take any other actions until your next turn. That would include attacking.
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To me, this is pretty clear. The spell specifically tells you that the PC can't take any further actions. Period.
What action are you taking after the full round action Spell Combat?
RAI, I agree with you. RAW, dimension door never accounted for the possibility of casting a spell being only part of a single action.
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What action are you taking after the full round action Spell Combat?
RAI, I agree with you. RAW, dimension door never accounted for the possibility of casting a spell being only part of a single action.
Precisely true. I know I'd rule that you could attack with spell combat and dimension door away, but not dimension door then attack unless you had Dimensional Agility.
Dimension Door ends your turn - that's the intention. You can't even take free actions after using it.
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To me, this is pretty clear. The spell specifically tells you that the PC can't take any further actions. Period.What action are you taking after the full round action Spell Combat?None.
RAI, I agree with you. RAW, dimension door never accounted for the possibility of casting a spell being only part of a single action.True. That's why I defer to the specifics of the spell in question. It doesn't cover being part of any kind of action other then that it takes a Standard Action to cast, and that after casting no other actions are allowed. Also, it seems fairly obvious to me that Dimensional Agility was developed (at least in part) to address this. If there were no Feat to allow it, I would say the argument is open to a more liberal interpretation. To really try and add a little more to my take on this, UM (and the Magus) was published prior to UC and Dimensional Agility. Isn't it possible that the developers saw the dilemma with Dimension Door/Spell Comabt and addressed in UC with the Feat? I know that's a stretch, but it is feasible.
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So - in conclusion - is a magus able to Attack after casting Dimensional Door on himself or not (without having Dimensional Agility)?I would rule no.
-James
By RAW, Dimension door only prevents new actions from being taken. By RAW, what action are you taking after the full round action of spell combat?
The choices are:
- Free
- Move
- Standard
- Full Round
Answer this, and I'll concede.
Considering that Dimension Door was written more than a decade prior to spell combat, I wouldn't parse the words in hope.
The same could be said for spell combat + haste, yet that is exactly what is happening. If people want to parse wording that is far older than spell combat in order to limit it, I'll do the same to expand it.
I posted on this a while ago; I don't think I ever saw any official ruling.
My gut is the same as what Artanthos; RAI does not intend for you to use dimension door at the start of Spell Combat and still attack (at the end is unambiguously fine). But due to what I think are unintended vagaries of the wording, it appears that it does work, by a technical reading.
I would check with your GM; I think it's a loophole that was not intended, and I would disallow it, requiring the character to have Dimensional Agility to pull this off. But I would be very annoyed if a player simply pulled this out without discussing it with me first, out of game, as I would with any thorny or questionably-legal action.
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By RAW, Dimension door only prevents new actions from being taken. By RAW, what action are you taking after the full round action of spell combat?The choices are:
- Free
- Move
- Standard
- Full Round
Answer this, and I'll concede.
Point taken. It simply isn't addressed. But doesn't Dimensional Agility suggest, by it's wording, that it was designed to mitigate the action-limiting effects of Dimension Door thereby allowing someone to perform the Spell Combat/Dimension Door/Attack routine if they have the Feat? At the end of the day, your GM has final say on matters that aren't clear. Unclear rules are the bane of my existence lately!!
The same could be said for spell combat + haste, yet that is exactly what is happening. If people want to parse wording that is far older than spell combat in order to limit it, I'll do the same to expand it.
I haven't looked at this one yet. But off the top of my head, Haste doesn't limit your action-taking ability it just doesn't allow for cumulative action effects. So, in that case, I'm not sure what the problem is. Use Spell Combat, cast Haste, make your Full Attack Action and add your extra "hasted" attack... But that's another topic.
The spell says can't take any other (referring to casting Dimension Door) actions. The other doens't refer to using Spell Combat. You use dimension door your actions are done.
As others have suggested, just take dimensional agility and enjoy your move/full-attack.
By RAW, Dimension door only prevents new actions from being taken. By RAW, what action are you taking after the full round action of spell combat?
The choices are:
- Free
- Move
- Standard
- Full Round
Answer this, and I'll concede.
This isn't quantum physics. A full attack action is made up of component attacks (sub-actions if you will) as well as possibly containing (some GM determined number of ) free actions and possibly not-an-actions (like five foot steps). While some parts are transitive (can be arranged in any order), some are not (you have to take your highest iterative attack first, for example). The whole is divisible, readied actions can interrupt it in the middle, etc.
While spell combat allows a spell to be cast as part of a full attack action, if that spell is DD, the remaining sub-parts of the current action cannot be taken, just as if they were stand-alone actions and not actions that are part of another action.
Use Spell Combat, cast Haste, make your Full Attack Action and add your extra "hasted" attack... But that's another topic.
Indeed, it is. One with a FAQ Request Thread here, if you're interested in seeing it addressed.
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It is common understanding, that when Dimensional Door get's cast on seomeone else, the condition "after using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn" applies for the caster, not for the one being teleported.
Common understanding? Perhaps at your table. There is nothing in the spell description (in either the PF or 3.5 version) to suggest this. I just looked at both...
That makes the RAI discussion rather hard to my mind. If a fighter can take a full attack action AFTER being teleported and that's ok with RAI, than why can't I cast the spell within my full attack action?
Teleported? Sure. Dimension Door'd? Nope.
The point is: I am not taking any other actions - I'm just finishing it.
Then we're just debating semantics... :/ and I'm more of a RAW kinda guy.
Example:
GM: "Are the actions that are allowed by Spell Combat + Dimension Door addressed in the Spell Combat entry?"
Player: "No."
GM: "Are the actions allowed by Spell Combat + Dimension Door addressed under the Dimension Door entry?"
Player: "No."
GM: "But what you can do after DDing is. Further, Dimensional Agility exists to specifically circumvent the lack of action after the DD spell."
Good debate, but this is what I choose to go with at my table.
Good Luck! ;)
A full attack action is made up of component attacks (sub-actions if you will) as well as possibly containing (some GM determined number of ) free actions and possibly not-an-actions (like five foot steps). While some parts are transitive (can be arranged in any order), some are not (you have to take your highest iterative attack first, for example). The whole is divisible, readied actions can interrupt it in the middle, etc.
I'm not sure that taking entirely separate actions during an action really qualifies them as some kind of undefined sub-action. Further, I'm not sure if different parts of a single action are (or should be) considered sub-actions.
If you're two-weapon fighting during a full-attack action, your main hand attack and off-hand attack are not separate actions. They're separate attacks, separate acts, but all part of the same action.
If you take a free action to drop a weapon in the middle of that, that's a separate free action. It's not part of the full-attack action.
While spell combat allows a spell to be cast as part of a full attack action
Spell Combat is a full-round action, not a full-attack action.
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Use Spell Combat, cast Haste, make your Full Attack Action and add your extra "hasted" attack... But that's another topic.Indeed, it is. One with a FAQ Request Thread here, if you're interested in seeing it addressed.
Heading there now!
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As for dimension door, the question needs to be this:
When dimension door says "you can't take any other actions" is it referring to taking any additional game-defined action types (free/standard/move/swift/immediate) or is it referring to any act that you can perform, including not-an-actions, attacks of opportunity, or any remaining parts of an action currently in progress?
This. This is what I was argueing. When DD says "other actions" it means actions in the broader sense, including what I was calling sub-actions in my less than perfect analogy.
First of all, the way this question is phrased, there's NO WAY I can answer it without a legion of rulesmongers picking it apart like a swarm of starving jackals picking apart the seven-day dead sun-baked carcass of an elephant.
"Action" is not a defined term by the rules—it covers ALL of the possible things you can do in the game. Some of them are full-round actions, some swift actions, etc. But the word "action" itself doesn't mean anything.
So yes, attacks of opportunity are an action, but so is picking up a dropped sword, rubbing your eye, building a castle, tripping over a root, blinking, remembering you just blinked, stabbing a rulesmonger, and exhaling. Along with every other thing a character does, consciously or unconsciously, in the game.
MMMMM that's good elephant!
Anyway, the point is that this supports the idea that the intent behind DDoor may be to stop you from doing stuff, rather than to just stop you from taking an additional game-defined Action type.
ok, so that means a wizard dimension dooring someone else can't breath until his next turn?
Sure, but since you can hold your breath for rounds equal to twice your con when not taking full or standard actions, or equal to con when taking those I guess it doesn't really matter.
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James was answering a question about taking attacks of opportunity while dazed/after casting DDoor. AoOs do not consume any game action, and DDoor and the dazed condition stop you taking game actions, so you can still take your AoOs when dazed or during the round after you cast DDoor, right?
Wrong.
Standard actions, move actions, all the 'game action' types we take for granted now first appeared in D&D 3.0. Yet the DDoor spell and it's prohibition on taking actions before your next turn have existed since 1st ed. Therefore, the 'actions' to which it refers cannot be the 3rd ed game action types, but must refer to when a creature chooses to do something.
Autonomous functions like breathing and blinking still happen, and the fact that you can consciously choose to (or not to) breathe or blink will not stop these things from continuing normally when dazed or after casting DDoor. Gravity and buoyancy, along with all other things not involving the conscious choice of the dazed or afflicted DDoor caster, will continue as usual.
The game treats most kinds of defence as autonomous; you will still get saving throws and your AC will continue to function as normal after casting DDoor, although any modifiers to these things based on choice will be unavailable. For example, a Duelist uses her cloak to DDoor. She is attacked and her AC is as normal, but she wouldn't be able to use her Parry ability, as that would be an act she chooses to do.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pggt?Falling-in-water-aka-sinking-What-is-the- speed
That thread discusses what happens when you sink. I would agree you would sink, but it seems likely you would sink 10ft from where you were dimension door'd. The real question is, since you can't do it to creatures against their will, I don't know why you'd dimension door yourself into water.
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The human body has around the same specific gravity as water, so is as likely to float as to sink, and if it sinks it won't sink quickly.
I remember an accident where one moment I was rapidly approached a solid pole and the next I hit the ground. It happened so fast that I don't remember the journey from pole to ground, yet my hands had reflexively hit the dirt before my face did.
I need my face, but if it required conscious thought to put my hands up then I'd look very different today. You're body reflexively defends itself without conscious direction, so yes, you keep your Dex bonus.
James M. just put it very well; just as you'd be unable to complete an action if you were dazed part way through it, so it would be after casting DDoor.
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@ Malachi: you actually lose your Dex Bonus when you are surprised, so bad example... Pathfinder is defined by the rules, not by logic. Logic would tell you, that a dragon's wings are just too small for him to be able to fly. Logic would tell you, that DD could not physically exist, as it'd require you to move faster than light. Logic would tell you, that you prolly won't survive a couple of swings with a 2-handed greataxe, even though you are level 20. But this is not a game of logic and real-life experience.
I didn't mention 'surprised'. I was prepared for impact. I was talking about the dazed condition.
Dazed: The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.
My point was that you still get full benefit from AC and can make saving throws normally even when dazed or denied actions. Your AC only gets penalised if you are affected by a spell or condition that specifically says it does. Dazed let's you keep your AC.
As to why DDoor doesn't mention the dazed condition: the description of DDoor is from before 3rd ed. It was that edition which introduced 'conditions' as a game defined concept. The spell description of DDoor hasn't been updated to take 'conditions' into account.
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Casting DDoor doesn't inflict a dazed condition on you, it's just ending your turn. Subsequent actions like AOOs are still possible.
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.
As established earlier, including the quote from JJ and the fact that the 'any other actions' phrase existed in the spell description before the game actions (standard, move, etc.) existed in the game, casting DDoor means you can't choose to do anything, before your next turn. So, no AoOs, no immediate actions.
Well, the whole arguement is not wether you can take any actions (be it "Actions" or "No Actions"). The argument is about wether DD negates or interrupts your current action. And I see no indication where it says it does.
So you're willfully ignoring the part where it says, "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn"? I think the statement is clear. You can't take more actions, you're turn is finished, do not pass go, do not collect $200 dollar. If you treated the interaction of spell combat and dimension door the way you want it wouldn't be necessary to take the feat Dimensional Agility. To me, that right there make it an obvious no. There is a feat to do exactly what you want, take the feat and you're good.
You can try to keep arguing for it, but everyone but you seems to be in agreement that spell combat and dimension door will not let you teleport and attack without taking dimensional agility. If you do take it, which I believe you can at level 7, you can then cast it and full attack after you do so (as a magus).
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To me, this is pretty clear. The spell specifically tells you that the PC can't take any further actions. Period.What action are you taking after the full round action Spell Combat?
RAI, I agree with you. RAW, dimension door never accounted for the possibility of casting a spell being only part of a single action.
If RAI you agree, then why would you argue against RAI to find a RAW loophole?
The rules are attempts to put into words the intentions of the developers. When RAW is in clear conflict with RAI, you always should go with with RAI in the same what that if you see a typo that is clearly a typo, you wouldn't argue it is correct.
Stuff like this...
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If RAI you agree, then why would you argue against RAI to find a RAW loophole?
Many people find it helpful to understand what the rules actually say before changing them to suit their table. Without a full understanding of the rules, changes can have consequences beyond those you originally intend.
When someone who doesn't know how to paint tries to touch up a painting, the results can be unfortunate.
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If RAI you agree, then why would you argue against RAI to find a RAW loophole?Many people find it helpful to understand what the rules actually say before changing them to suit their table. Without a full understanding of the rules, changes can have consequences beyond those you originally intend.
When someone who doesn't know how to paint tries to touch up a painting, the results can be unfortunate.
If you agree that the Rule as INTENDED does not match the Rule as...let us go with read by someone, then who cares.
If you see a typo, do you as a reader contemplate why the word is not spelled correctly?
A written rule exists only for the purpose of conveying the intention behind it.
If RAI is clear, you go with RAI, because it basically means RAW is a mistake.
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If RAI you agree, then why would you argue against RAI to find a RAW loophole?Many people find it helpful to understand what the rules actually say before changing them to suit their table. Without a full understanding of the rules, changes can have consequences beyond those you originally intend.
That said, given two ways to read a line you should elect to go with the one that makes sense understanding two things: this is not the work of a sole author or set of authors, and no set of authors elected to write the rules as adversarial 'laws', but instead far more loosely.
-James
And in the post I linked to, the person was saying "I agree that the RAI is X, but RAW allows it so I can do it."
This is basically like saying "I know that sneak attack does 1d6 bonus damage, but there is a typo so I get to roll a 1d66 dice. Give me a 1d66 dice!"
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If RAI is clear, you go with RAI, because it basically means RAW is a mistake.This can be a little dangerous, as 'clear' can be confused with 'we've always played it that way'.
There's nothing wrong with looking at a strict reading of the rules, but you have to watch your motives and preconceptions.
Also even if 'everyone' understands what the typo really was meant to be, it's still nice to get it corrected.
Perspective simply has to come into play here,
James
Yes, but again in the instance I was citing, the person agreed what the RAI is, but still wanted to argue for the RAW.
If you believe the RAI is X, and you are still arguing for the RAW (or at least as you read it) you are basically arguing for what you believe is a mistake to be the correct answer, despite you believing it is wrong.
It's also clear that the intention of the spell is to negate the scenario of "I cast Quickened Dimension Door and do this" on my turn.
What makes that so clear?
I might agree if the rules said "until the end of your turn" instead of saying "until your next turn."
Because the latter is explicitly including the time between your current turn and the start of your next one.