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i remember in 3.5 low light vision let you see like daytime at night if there was a moon out or stars.
did they brush that under the rug in pathfinder?
additional rules > vision and light under low light vision:
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
so an elf with low-light vision, reading the vision and light section, can't see at night in the forest, everything is in dim light. without *some* initial light source, twice as far as nothing is nothing.
but in the glossary:
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
so if a moonlit night is dim light, but an elf can see in it as well as during the day, how come they can't see as well in other areas of pure dim illumination? and why isn't that spelled out in the vision and light section? it makes it sounds like elves are night-blind.
Low-Light vision lets you see twice as far as normal from the source of the light.
A torch gives low light in a set radius. LLV lets them see twice as far.
The reflection from the sun against the moon however casts light across a broad area though (rather from a tiny fixed point like a torch) and thus allows for a much greater area of effect for someone with LLV. i.e. they can see on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
Torches and Moonlight just work differently, and thus are treated differently by the rules.
.. that is, if I understood your question.
Anywhere that is considered "dim light" the LLV person can see in.
So to make an example:
if the DM creates a cavern where the entire area is Low Light, then someone with LLV can see as clearly as if it were day.
If the cavern however had "bright spots" and "dim spots" (and presumably dark spots) where the Bright was 20 feet and the dim was 40 feet then the LLV character could see twice as far as someone without it.
(or 80 feet).
-S
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but if a character with low-light vision can see better in areas of dim light, why not just say that?
and then how does THAT interact with torches , elves see 40 ft. of bright light and 40 ft. of dim light from a torch. so do they see just as well in THOSE areas of dim light? making it really 80ft of daylight for elves?
its like they've got two rules cases for low light vision: indoors, with some light source, you see twice as far. outdoors with dim light, you see as if it were all daylight.
which makes it sound like dim light cast from a torch or light source, is different than the dim light outdoors somehow. so how does it interact with areas of darkness that end up creating dim illumination?
Yeah this is confusing at first. The key for me to figure it out was this part:
Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters
Then look at Table 7-10 Light Sources and Illumination again. Notice that for all the light sources with Normal light, that when doubled it covers the area that would have been dim light.
Combine that with the statement about moonlight, and it would indicate that all characters with LLV effectively treat all dim light as normal. But they don't treat all darkness as dim, only the doubled radius
Also candles technically don't have any Normal light radius to double, but the bit about spell casters using a candle as a light source, further indicates that the dim light given off by it is treated as normal. There just wouldn't be any additional radius to treat as dim.
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I think this needs an FAQ.
The two sections on LLV contradict each other.
One says
"Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day"
and the other says
"In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch."
Which states that anyone without Darkvision hits a 20% miss chance. Not exactly "as well as they can during the day".
When rules contradict, we must FAQ! :)
-S
There's no contradiction. People with LLV can see in "normal areas of dim light" normally and don't get the 20% penalty there.
Examples:
Moonlit night: the entire area is dim light. Humans get 20% concealment penalty, Elves don't. They see as good as during the day, and during the day they wouldn't get the penalty. So they don't.
Torches:
0-20 feet: normal light, all good for both.
20-40 feet: dim light for humans. Elves still see perfeclty here (for them normal light is up to 40 feet)
40-80 feet: pitch black darkness for humans. Elves still see, though not perfectly anymore.
So while yes, Elves still get the 20% concealment penalty in dim light FOR THEM, they don't get it in areas of "real dim light" so to speak.
What is dim light for elves already is darkness for others.
It's not like suddenly the torch flares up to twice it's brightness just because it's an elf looking at it.
If you manage to create a dungeon only with dim light, not sure how (maybe lots of candles?), then that would supposedly use the "moonlit night" rule, though I admit this part is not spelled out, but nothing else really makes sense.
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but it does contradict it, you're calling it the moonlight rule yourself to call out those areas of dim light as being different.
if low light vision: treated areas of dim light as normal light, and areas of darkness as dim illumination. then their vision within areas of torches would still be doubled ( 20 ft bright, 20 ft dim becomes 40 ft bright, and the darkness beyond that would all be dim light for them , 20% miss ), and it would work with the outdoors lighting ( dim light treated as bright light. and on nights where there is no moon out, total darkness, they're still not AS stumbly as humans, they can see it as if it were dim light).
it feels like the bit about the stars and moon at night was just left in and forgotten about.
I completely agree with your interpretation of what's supposed to be going on Quatar, but I see why Selgard thought that. The wording is not at all clear. One could say creatures with LLV don't have the "ability to see in darkness". It would be good if this language got clarified. Just adding "low-light vision" along with darkvision would help a lot.
Except the rules say "see twice as far in areas of dim light". It doesn't say anything about having a step up the light scale, simply that they can see twice as far, so a torch in a dungeoun producing 20' light and 40' dim light then darkness beyond that would simply be 40/80/Dark to the Elf.
Outdoors under a moonlight night is Dim for everyone, so Dim x 2 is... no change.
There is fluff that talks about moonlight, but the crunch talks about double distances and that's it.
Which is silly.
I think you need to take the rules separately.
Low Light Vision does not allow you to see through dim light on the whole. As stated, it doubles the perception of light. You still suffer the 20% miss chance of dim light, it is just in a different area. When using the torch as the example, theat dim light area is a ring with an inside radius of 40' to an outside radius of 80' rather than the normal 20'-40' area.
If the LLV character ignored or could just see though dim light than there would be no miss chance at that range.
Completely separate of the above is a moon light or star filled night. The rules state, in a complelety different section that I can't look up at work, that LLV allows a character to see "as if it were day".
The only way that I can see to play is to apply both rules at the same time. Start by deciding if the moon/star night applies. If it does, the LLV character can see. If not, apply the light source rules.
I don't think the contradict, but they both need to be accounted for.
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That's actually not the case though:
"Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch."
"Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters".
So the whole area is dim light for everyone, they just see twice as far in it.
It doesn't say under the Vision and Light mechanics the Elf gets to see one step lighter on the scale, just that he can see twice as far.
There is no sentence that says anything about 'upgrading' in and of itself.
Assuming there was no torch, and you are outside at night, the whole area is Dim Light, the radius is effectively the horizon - "Characters with low-light vision can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters".
It does not say they see one category higher in dim light, it says they see twice the distance.
The part about the LLV characters seeing at night is on page 564 of the CRB. "Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day."
This is in addition to the normal 'double distance' rules. I don't know why the rule is hidden so far away, but once you find it, it is pretty clear that they can see at night under those condidtions and that distance does not matter.
Whoops.
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But if a moonlit night is simply 'dim light', why would low light vision treat ALL areas of Dim light as 'just like daylight' as opposed to simply 'twice as far'.
In a cave full of fungi providing Dim light, why can the Elf only see twice as far?
Is the moon magical or something?
I have no idea. To that, I cannot give you an answer. BUT, I can tell you that it is clearrly written as a rule.
You could apply it like this if it will help:
The moon averages 238,900 miles from the planet (Earth). *The Normal Light area from the moon is 150,000 miles. Double that is 300,000 miles. Creatures with LLV are within double the distance from the Normal Light area and therefore get to see as if in Normal Light.
*Everything after the star is made up to explain why it works.
But if a moonlit night is simply 'dim light', why would low light vision treat ALL areas of Dim light as 'just like daylight' as opposed to simply 'twice as far'.
In a cave full of fungi providing Dim light, why can the Elf only see twice as far?
Is the moon magical or something?
The cave as you are describing it is a non-point light sources and the only example given is with moon and/or star light. All the other examples (Table 7-10) are point light sources which have distances doubled.
Both references to seeing twice as far in the Additional Rules section refer to "radius". This would indicate a point source, not a non-point source.Emphais mine.
The:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
The bit about seeing twice as far below (emphasis mine) I believe to be referring to the same game mechanic about point sources with a radius, but is poorly worded.
Low-Light Vision
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
This I believe to be the one reference to a non-point light source.
All this is making some assumptions that allow this to all work consistently, but is not what is explicitly said, so I FAQed as well.
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In complete dim light* (to a human) such as a moonlight night, an elf would see normally. Dim light to a human is always normal to elf. Doesn't matter if there's a torch nearby or not, it would be normal light around the torch, then normal light a mile away from the torch as well. It seems strange, but it's because mechanically the light level is the same to the elf, despite it being noticeable darker further away from the torch.
The key is to not picture certain locations as having a certain level of light, but rather different people interpreting different levels of light based off their relative capabilities and distance from the light.
light conditions are never explicitly with respect to humans, in pathfinder the light condition exists or doesn't exist in the square. and the vision of the character determines its effects. saying that the outdoors example of dim light in starlight/moonlight is a different level of dim light ignores the rest of the rules of lighting conditions.
startlight/moonlight at night is one case of complete ambient dim light.
within the area of a deeper darkness spell cast outdoors is another. ( it lowers the light level two steps from bright light -> normal light -> dim light. Its not darkness inside, but those with darkvision can see normally for 60 ft. its dim light, but there's no light source inside the darkness, so there's no area of bright light to see twice as far in.
so what's a poor elf to do, but muddle through with 20% concealment.
a rules lawyer gm can argue that its not starlight/moonlight, so an elf can't see as normal in an area of dim light without a light source. a rules lawyer player could try to argue that starlight/moonlight is just describing a level of dim light, which elves can always see in.
Here's the way I see it, and I think it works best this way, matching what the rules seem to say and imply:
The light sources are listed as if kindled in an area of darkness, i.e. no light source.
The radii listed are the objective levels of light at a given distance away from the source of light, which coincides with the subjective levels of normal vision.
LLV allows for characters to see in objective dim light as if it were normal light (daylight under a tree canopy, light coming in a window, next to a torch, etc.).
However, when there is a singular light source lighting an area of darkness, part of that darkness is subjectively, not objectively, treated as dim light for purposes of concealment, etc., for those with LLV. The only time such a subjective area exists is when the ambient light not within the effect of the light source is darkness.
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This isn't complex.
The rules for light and vision spell out how LLV interacts with the radius of illumination of a light source.
AND
Due to another, separate rule, those with LLV can see in moonlight/starlight as if it were daylight = no miss chance.
The two rules are separate, but both apply in the appropriate situation. There is no contradiction.
The major malfunction with low light vision is that it ceases to work when you are in a huge, dense forest with not much of a moon to light things up, and again in any indoors or cavern environment.
That's why I tend to recommend that anyone who wants to do scouting in game gets their mitts on darkvision, even if it DOES have limited range. Really like the Deepsight feat, imo. Great for night time archers!
Also, it really sucks to need to carry a light source when you are trying to be Stealthy. You stand out like a sore thumb to anyone, even those that don't have darkvision.
a rules lawyer gm can argue that its not starlight/moonlight, so an elf can't see as normal in an area of dim light without a light source. a rules lawyer player could try to argue that starlight/moonlight is just describing a level of dim light, which elves can always see in.
I don't think the rules lawyer player has any standing since the glossary entry explicitly states "Characters [...] can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." and not "Characters [...] can see through dim light as well as they can during the day."
I think it's thematic with regards to elves (in a classical sense) and other low-light vision savvy beings and still affords villains with control over darkness some modicum of challenge.
Aracorn: "It suddenly grows dim, though the sun shines just as brightly as before. What do your elf eyes spy?"
Logolas: "I'm afraid I cannot see clearly through this murky veil. Some great evil lurks about."
Grumly: "Hey! Does that wizard up ahead look familiar? Why are you two squinting?"
I really wish we could get an official FAQ on this. Our group is debating the issue right now...
I will try to explain this in a different way.
Bright light during the day or in the first range increment of a torch. 100% light
moon and star light during the night or in the second increment of the torch(light source). 50% light
Darkness. 0% light.
To a person with 'normal' vision 100% light is no penalty. torch lumination 20 feet
To a person with 'normal' vision 50% light is 20% concealment. torch illumination 21-40 feet
To a person with 'low light vision' 50% light and more is no penalty. torch illumination 40 feet.
To a person with 'low light vision' the darkness that is within 41-80 feet of a torch is considered the same as 50% light to a 'normal' vision person therefor having a 20% concealment instead of regular darkness.
This means that during the night in moon/starlight a 'low light vision' person recieves no benefit from a torch, while 'normallight vision' person would eliminate the penalty he/she normally get's, as long as he/she is within the 20 feet of the torch.
A dungeon with fungi providing 50% light is the same as I just described.
A dungeon without light sources is 0% light and therefor darkness (I advice torches,lampes or (continual) light)
people with darkvision can see in 0% light (darkness)
In darkness 'normal vision' gets 40 feet of illumination from a torch.
In darkness 'Low light vision' gets 80 feet of illumination from a torch.
My way of tackling it.
For elves there isn't such a thing as dim light...
it's either they see as well as during the day (in all areas including dim light)...
or they don't (zone of darkness).
In darkness they can't see better than humans.
And this is completely coherent with all the rules mentionned above.
There isn't such a thing as rising ALL lighting levels by 1.
That is untrue. There is a area of 'darkness' for 'normal vision' people around a torch that functions as dim light with 20% concealment penalty for 'low-lightvision' people. That's the 41-80 feet area from a torch, for low light vision people.
Yeah Major, your view is incorrect.
Elves gain more benefit from light than humans, but they still suffer from dim light exactly the same.
Human = Source (torch) Normal to 20' Dim to 40'
Elf = Source (torch) Normal to 40' Dim to 80'
So you see, more benefit, but still suffer dim. Based on your ruling the elf would gain no benefit from the 40' to 80' range.
Also, if an elf was in a cave that was only dim light, say from glowing rocks, it would still be dim light for him/her.
Komoda you are making things difficult again. If an elf is in a cave of dim light (for the elf), it would be considered darkness to a human.
If it was a cave with dim light for a human, the elf would see normally!
No, you are incorrect. That only counts for moonlight/star light. There is nothing in the rules that raises the light level one level for characters with low light vision.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
As you can see, there is nothing stating that light levels are raised, only extended. If there is no normal light at all, the elf gains nothing. Except as noted about moon/star light.
(to Komoda) I never wrote that the low light vision raises the light level
I wrote twice now that dim light for a human is bright for a Low Light vision.
And Darkness for a human that is within 41-80 ft of a torch is dim light for a Low light vision. I always state the torch radius in the examples.
A cave filled with dim light (for example: coming from fungi) must be clarified as being dim to humans (and the human is our frame of reference) or the dim light for a Low light vision, who would be able to see but have a 20% miss chance while a human in that area would experience total darkness!!
Realise that moon/starlight is effectivly putting dim light source (for a human!!!) in every square. And fungi covered walls of a dungeon would do the same if the entire dungeon is covered in the stuff.
The only thing you'd have to consider in the dungeon is wether the light is dim for humans or dim for low light vision. Because that makes a huge difference and is possible.
But I am starting to think that we are trying to say the same and and not realising that we do
As a GM I would say that the light in a forest during the NIGHT would be: dim for humans in open spaces, Dim for Low light vision under the trees and patches a darkness in particularly dense parts of the forest. And as a rough guideline I'd say that: Pineforest would have very few dark spots and much Dim light for humans and few dim light for low light visions spots. Normal coniferous forest would have an equal distribution of all spots. While jungle would be mostly darkness and some dim light for Low light vision spots and hardly any dim light for humans spots.
I don't think we are saying the same thing.
Since the normal light distance for our example in a cave is 0' as far as a human sees, double 0' is still 0'. Therefore an elf gains no benefit in the cave that only has dim light.
The moonlight/ starlight rules are not in effect without moonlight or starlight. They are a special subset of the rules.
Think of it this way, the elf does NOT see better in dark places than a human on its own. The elf only gains more benefit from normal light sources (torch) that illuminate those dark places.
I completely agree with your cave example. A cave without light source means no visiblity for either humans or Low Light Visions.
But the rules very specifically state that Low Light Visons benefit more from light sources.
Moonlight/starlight is a light source too. It effectively says that the outside world at night is considered to have a dim light source (for a human!!!) in every square.
The torch rule effectiveness shows that. Because the area of normal and dim light for a human added together is the area where a low light vision has normal sight. The Dim light area for a Low light vision still has light in it but not enough for a human to see anything.
This does not raise the light level for a low light vision in a dark area. It just states that Low ligh Visions need less light to see well. Because outside the 80feet area of a torch, neither the Human nor the Low Light Vision are able to see anything and are effectively blind.
The cave example with the Fungi just raises questions because people don't realise that the dim light level is not the same brightness for humans and Low Light Visions.
Komada states: The moonlight/ starlight rules are not in effect without moonlight or starlight. They are a special subset of the rules.
Wrong! the rules just clarifies the torch rule.
Why do Low Light Visions gain more benefit from a light source? Because the Bright light area + Dim light area for a human are both considered bright light for the Low Light Vision. The Dim light area for a Low Light Vision starts after the Dim Light Area ended for a Human. So there is no extra rule in the statement that explains that Moonlight/Starlight is considered bright light for a Low Light Vision, because the torch rule effectively allready proved this.
The best example to demonstrate is the Real life Low Light Vision of a housecat. It can see equally well in conditions that have half the light intensity where humans can see. The cat does this because of a light-reflective layer behind it's light receiving cells that will send the available light twice passed it's light receiving cells, effectively doubling the amount of light the eyes detect.
And it also has problems with very bright lights as the eyes of the cat tend to overload where the human can see just fine. Low light Visions in the game however do not get a penalty in (very) bright light.
And Komoda I would like to add that I am not trying to attack you personally. I just wanted to react to your statement.
Yeah, we still disagree. If the dim light of the cave is never raised to the level of normal light, then an elf will never see it as normal light either.
As to Low Light giving a benefit, that benefit is only that it allows those with it to see normal light further away from its source, thus the doubling.
I still maintain that it doesn't mean that they gain any benefit from a dim light source that is never more than dim light, other than seeing that dim light for twice as far as a human.
And we are cool, I like debates.
It may actually be simpler than everyone is saying but I understand our desire to see logic in the rule and to make it fit into our understanding of the rules.
Low-light vision in my opinion does two things:
#1 Increases the area of normal light and dim light from magical and mundane light sources by doubling it.
#2 Allows a creature to see on a moonlit night (note that it does not say a starlit night) as they would during the day.
It does not allow a creature to see through dim light outside at night in general, just on moonlit nights.
The DM just needs to let his players know if it is moonlit or not and the game goes on as far as I can tell.
They get one benefit from a dim light source that is never more than dim light: They can read a scroll with even the tiniest of candle light (which only gives dim light).
True. At least this was clearly described under candle when I went to look for it.
(note that it does not say a starlit night)
Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
This is the line that people (me too) feel adds a starry night to the list because every other thing mentioned in the line is treated as normal light by characters with Low Light Vision. But explicitly, it looks like you might be right.
Otherwise I agree with your assessment.