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(Copied from an existing thread of mine on another site 'cause hey, why retype it?)
So for like the umpteenth time this year (Or at least in the past 3-5 months), I may be looking at running a PF home game with a homebrewed campaign world. The short of it is as follows:
2. Medium tech (Industrial revolution type era. Steam and coal power are just starting to be a thing outside of Dwarf controlled areas, basic blackpowder firearms are commonplace in more tech-friendly locations and more advanced firearms are beginning to be produced)
3. Low Fantasy (Main races are those in the core book (Humans, elves, ect) along with Drow, Centaur, and Orcs. No dragons, misc oozes, magical beasts (there are exceptions) and so on are not a thing, though the lower reaches of the underground are a notable exception to the rule)
4. Planarly Locked (The world has NO access to any of the inner or outer planes beyond the etherial and shadow planes, and those are strictly limited to locations on the prime plane. Also, the Summoner class and most monster summoning spells do not exist at present)
Anyway, upon further thought, I've a few questions for the more experienced world builders out there. After all, last thing I want is things to get too broken one way or the other.
1. I was thinking of making the basic firearms (musket, blunderbuss and flintlock pistol) martial weapons with the Advanced and "other" firearms (dragon pistol for example) to still fall under the "Exotic" category. The basic firearms would have the cost lowered a bit (from 2000g to, say, 1500g) and the Advanced firearms would be 1.5x more costly and they would need to get them specially made. I'm not sure if this a good idea or not and would appreciate feedback on this.
2. Are there any foreseeable consequences with having Divine magic starting to fall out of favor? I was thinking that thousands of years into the past, Divine magic was the ONLY tolerated magic and that the Gods had a more active role in society (miracles were fairly common'ish for example). This however ended and the people turned their attention to arcane magic and tech with the Divine magic users taking up a similar role to the modern day churches and religions. The general plan is to have the Divine magic come back into prominence via a campaign involving "unlocking" the world to the planes.
3. The no Summoner/Summoned Monster abilities/spells/classes. Good idea or bad idea? Again, to be "unlocked" when the world is opened to planar travel (as mentioned in #2).
4. Encounter related question, but how well do you figure a "Run and hide from the alien monstrosity that is stalking the party" kind of thing would go? Outwit the creature, scurry through openings that it cannot get through and try to keep it off the party's trail. I was thinking of doing it in an underground area with a +Size, Advanced, possibly templated Gug.
5. Is there a table for about how much gold a player ought to have by what level? I don't want to dump bags of gold on the players, but at the same time I don't want to screw them on rewards.
6. Are there any game breaking class/race combos I ought to keep an eye out for? I plan on letting most of the Pathfinder books be usable (as long as the races and racial stuff is kept within line with the above restrictions) so, again, not sure what I ought to be on the lookout for.
7. Any creatures I ought to outright avoid? Looking at throwing mostly aberrations and a few choice monsters at the party when they go underground.
8. Ought I avoid templates on the BBEG? Was going to use the Nightmare Creature template (Advanced Bestiary) on a Denizen of Leng with levels in Summoner as the BBEG (Calling things from the dark beyond to assist in unlocking the plane their own way to allow for mass raiding and slave taking, inadvertently ripping the barriers down so that planar rifts eventually tear the world apart. You know, the usual).
1. I have no idea, no expirience with firearms.
2. I think there are, a lot of divine spells can help a community. Cure is one example, as well as cure disease. But also purify food/drink or create water. Life in a village with a cleric might be easier.
3. As long as you're very clear on this with your party before they start building I don't think it has to be a problem.
4. I would play it in rounds, sounds interesting.
5. There is a wealth by level table, as a guideline.
6. I don't know, I only have played with core and advanced. And not all the classes/races. (I heard summoners can get out of control.)
7+8. I don't know.
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1. I have no idea, no expirience with firearms.
2. I think there are, a lot of divine spells can help a community. Cure is one example, as well as cure disease. But also purify food/drink or create water. Life in a village with a cleric might be easier.
1. Well muskets deal a 1d12 at touch AC at 40ft, but misfire on a roll of 1-2 and take a full round to reload without feats (Down to a move action with Rapid Reload and paper alchemical cartridges). Pistols do a 1d8 at 20ft and misfire on a roll of a 1, and blunderbusses do a 1d8 in a 15ft cone, both at touch AC. Also, ammo is typically more expensive than, say crossbow ammo.
2. Actually, I was considering having divine magic being on the decline, but mostly in just practice. Like, a Paladin would have quite less clout than, say, a Magus, as the Paladin would be seen as little more than a slightly buffed church security guard with good morals. And Druid/nature magic is still going strong, so there's that. I actually plan for one of the cities/nations to be a Matriarchal Druidic Theocracy built into a massive magically resonant world tree type thing (Only place giant, intelligent animals are a thing).
My main complaint with 8 is the availability of classes to NPCs that are strictly banned from Player use. At the very least, I'd want a good explanation for why s/he can do something that none of the players can.
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My main complaint with 8 is the availability of classes to NPCs that are strictly banned from Player use. At the very least, I'd want a good explanation for why s/he can do something that none of the players can.
Well with regards to the Summoner, the Denizens of Leng come from, well, Leng which, as far as I can tell, share a lot in common with places like Sigil in that they can get pretty much anywhere they want to or need to. That being said, they've 1) had experience with extraplanar beings, and 2) are not necessarily bound by the same constraints for spells that the main planar inhabitants are. Because they've been pretty much everywhere there's water, they've had experiance not only getting into planes (though I'd say that getting onto this plane is difficult at best, but not impossible) but adapting in a way that allows them to use their magic with little or no hinderance.
Also, since the Denizens of Leng are wholly alien (in a Lovecraftian kind of way), I feel it's rather appropriate that they can do things that are, at the time, incomprehensible to the party (as they've never seen the summoning variety of conjuration magic). I will not be throwing things at them they can't handle though (Nothing with like DR 15/Cold Iron for example, but still things their characters have either never seen or conceived of).
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Hmm... With the planes being locked in your world, maybe Divine magic fell out of favor due to the Gods no longer being accessible. Arcane magic was simply a better option for those wanting to gain power.
While the planes are locked, perhaps only allow Divine magic up to level 3 spells? Clerics are still around and useful, but the Church has lost power and influence due to this limitation.
Just an idea.
I suppose in that vein it makes sense. It still twigs my personal "If the NPCs can do it the players can do it and vice versa; they just need to have/gain access to the same resources, etc." rule, but as it's not my game that's not as much of an issue. ;)
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Hmm... With the planes being locked in your world, maybe Divine magic fell out of favor due to the Gods no longer being accessible. Arcane magic was simply a better option for those wanting to gain power.
While the planes are locked, perhaps only allow Divine magic up to level 3 spells? Clerics are still around and useful, but the Church has lost power and influence due to this limitation.
Just an idea.
I had considered this, but at the same time if a player opts for a Divine class, I don't want to penalize them for their choice. Only way I could think of to balance it out would be either increase the spell slots they get after they hit 3rd level spells or start giving them the Fighter Feat progression.
An idea I was toying with was that over the thousands of years since the Gods left, the religions have adjusted and warped until they were only paying lip service to the actual deities and were actually worshipping the domains/subdomains each deity represented. Then when the plane gets unlocked and the Gods turn their eyes back to the world, there'll be an overhaul in religion when prophets start turning up and such.
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I suppose in that vein it makes sense. It still twigs my personal "If the NPCs can do it the players can do it and vice versa; they just need to have/gain access to the same resources, etc." rule, but as it's not my game that's not as much of an issue. ;)
Haha, no no, I get ya. The class and such will get unlocked later on (around the same time the world gets unlocked). The Leng creature will be less of a straight up fighter and more like an operative on a deadline. It does not have the time to sit there and duke it out with the players as it's brethren (and the more evil creatures in the multiverse) are waiting for the way to be opened. The real fight will be with the eidolon as the Leng creature will drop after a few stabs (Gonna see about giving it under-average HP and a handful of AC).
Alternatively, I could replace the Gug mentioned at point 4 with the eidolon, giving the players a sort of enforcement that they're going the right way and the creature is getting kinda desperate in stopping them try to stop it.
Do note that if the master drops, the Eidolon poofs out of existence. This can be delayed a few rounds with a feat (I think 1 round/level), but not enough for the Eidolon to have a whole battle to itself with its master dead unless it ends very quickly.
I do support the Eidolon being the party's stalker though, ties the plot together well =)
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Do note that if the master drops, the Eidolon poofs out of existence. This can be delayed a few rounds with a feat (I think 1 round/level), but not enough for the Eidolon to have a whole battle to itself with its master dead unless it ends very quickly.
I do support the Eidolon being the party's stalker though, ties the plot together well =)
I'll do my best to make the BBEG properly then =D
And in the first scenario (I'm considering a sort of zombie plague in a town) I'll be sure to have the Leng creature make a showing and have the eidolon show off it's might.
Also, gonna take off the Planar Fast Healing that the Denizen gets and maybe give the eidolon the Qlippoth's Horrific Appearance (that lessons the more the players see it). As sort of a "This thing is an abortion of reality and your minds are tying to wrap around the concept".
2. Actually, I was considering having divine magic being on the decline, but mostly in just practice. Like, a Paladin would have quite less clout than, say, a Magus, as the Paladin would be seen as little more than a slightly buffed church security guard with good morals. And Druid/nature magic is still going strong, so there's that. I actually plan for one of the cities/nations to be a Matriarchal Druidic Theocracy built into a massive magically resonant world tree type thing (Only place giant, intelligent animals are a thing).
2. Sounds good to me, intersesting setting. Do the people nowadays have high level wizards/sorcerers to look up to or "follow"? I can imagine people doing that in this case and I can imagine high level wizards or sorcerers taking advantage of the opportunities. (Like posing themselves as demi gods.)
(Btw. That could leave you with some frustrated paladins,could be fun to work with.)|
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2. Actually, I was considering having divine magic being on the decline, but mostly in just practice. Like, a Paladin would have quite less clout than, say, a Magus, as the Paladin would be seen as little more than a slightly buffed church security guard with good morals. And Druid/nature magic is still going strong, so there's that. I actually plan for one of the cities/nations to be a Matriarchal Druidic Theocracy built into a massive magically resonant world tree type thing (Only place giant, intelligent animals are a thing).2. Sounds good to me, intersesting setting. Do the people nowadays have high level wizards/sorcerers to look up to or "follow"? I can imagine people doing that in this case and I can imagine high level wizards or sorcerers taking advantage of the opportunities. (Like posing themselves as demi gods.)
(Btw. That could leave you with some frustrated paladins,could be fun to work with.)
It all depends on the location really. More magically oriented locations will obviously have casters in positions of power, whereas those cities/nations that tend to favor technology more will have a technocracy instead. I'm thinking the most common form of government, regardless of WHO is ruling, would be a sort of council (council of mages, council of engineers, etc.) if only so everyone can keep everyone else in line.
Perhaps it's not as much that divine magic is less powerful in and of itself, but wielders of it are much less common, let alone mid-high level ones. A town may have a single 4th level cleric presiding over it's church, while a high-level one would be very rare.
Thinking along the lines of big L. Divine Magic is simply unpopular for various reasons and the npc casters are not devout enough or as you say lip service while a PC would have some kind of advantage most dont have like an original holy text unchanged by years of religious decline. Having made changes to appeal to the masses to bring in supporters and worshipers.
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Perhaps it's not as much that divine magic is less powerful in and of itself, but wielders of it are much less common, let alone mid-high level ones. A town may have a single 4th level cleric presiding over it's church, while a high-level one would be very rare.
This is pretty much what I had in mind =D
so, tell me if im getting this right:
u have a low-divine, high-arcane world with blooming technology and no planar travel. ur BBEG is basically the herald of Chthulu and the party needs to save the world in some Lovecraftian sense? if this is right, i love it! haha.
making basic firearms martial weapons should be ok -- just keep note of the damage output in early fights and adjust touch AC or combats as needed
as far as healing magic, wizards can still utilize the druids to creat wands of cure, and other such things. or u have druids as the main healers. ALSO, take a look at the Cult of Razmir (basically arcane casters faking that they have divine magic...food for thought)
i love the idea of summoning tentacled monsters to stalk the party. keep us updated on how this goes!
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so, tell me if im getting this right:
u have a low-divine, high-arcane world with blooming technology and no planar travel. ur BBEG is basically the herald of Chthulu and the party needs to save the world in some Lovecraftian sense? if this is right, i love it! haha.
Pretty much. The divine magic will even out after the first half as the planar barriers start to fall (More on this in a bit). And the BBEG is indeed a herald, but not for monstrous tentacled creatures. The BBEG was sent from Leng to basically crack open the world for the slavers from Leng to come in and take people for their own purposes. In doing so however, a sort of planar beacon would go off for damn near every creature on the outer planes and they would flock to the world for their own purposes.
making basic firearms martial weapons should be ok -- just keep note of the damage output in early fights and adjust touch AC or combats as needed
as far as healing magic, wizards can still utilize the druids to creat wands of cure, and other such things. or u have druids as the main healers. ALSO, take a look at the Cult of Razmir (basically arcane casters faking that they have divine magic...food for thought)
i love the idea of summoning tentacled monsters to stalk the party. keep us updated on how this goes!
I don't really see the players using firearms outside of the Gunslinger class except on high armor, low Dex enemies, but I don't know 100% on how they'll take it yet.
Well Clerics will still be allowed, but instead of picking a deity, they pick a pair of domains/subdomains. It'll add some flexibility for the players and ease for me 'cause I REALLY don't feel like homebrewing up deities and their portfolios. 'Sides, most of the deities have lost touch with the world.
Now, for the barrier thing I mentioned above...
The first half of the campaign (lvl 1 to ~10-12) will be 1) figuring out WHAT the Leng creature is, 2) what it's planning to do, and 3) stopping it. There's no set time limit for the players as of yet, and I doubt I'll set one, though there will be a sense of urgency.
Anyway, the players kill the BBEG, and before he dies (like perma dies. Weird quirk of the world I suppose, extraplanar creatures tend to perma-die there) tells then that they are too late, that they are only delaying the inevitable. While the players DID stop the portal to Leng from opening, the planar barriers that keep the world planarly locked are starting to crumble. In 1d4+1 years, the barriers will fall and all sorts of extrapalnar creatures will swarm in.
So, it's time to raise an army and get ready. The later half of the campaign will be a combination of diplomancy, figuring out what sort of upgrades/training they can give the troops/allies they recruit, and a weird kinda D&D/chess combat system for mass battles (though I may just crack open the 3.5 warfare PDF and use that). The objective is to protect your holdings, contain the planar bleed that springs up, and shut it down.
Ideas for the recruitable troops:
Druids: Pack masters, Giant Eagle riders, Support/buffing druids, Treants
Arcane casters: Magus regiments, battle casters, research wizards (Scry enough to unlock summoning for troops, Summoner regiments, and the Dismissal/Banishment spells)
Divine: A single Paladin regiment (Paladin/Cavalier gestalts), healing corps.
Tech users: Dwarven siege engines (cannons mostly), riflemen regiments (mounted and not), airships
Magitech (Affiliated with neither magic or technology): Lifespark Golems (Clockwork mostly)
Racial: Centaur outriders (ranged cavalry), Orc Fiendbinders (morally questionable summoning troops, limited numbers), Drow Fleshcrafters (Alchemists)
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I was also tinkering with the idea that the world was not always planarly locked (back when the gods had more of a hand in things) and that there are a handful of remnants that have survived over the thousand or so years.
1. A Sphinx that guards the only depository of extraplanar knowledge. Think the Library episode from Avatar to get the inspiration.
2. A half-Fey elf (a moderately powerful monarch that rarely, if ever, flexes her power) and a human vampire (LN Magus, the queen's confidant, bodyguard and rumored consort). Idea for them is that they become the PC's patrons for when the world is in danger. Half-fey stuff hidden until barriers come down and last minute aid can be gained (two words: Bandersnatch Chariot)
Those are the only two that I have at the moment though. Thoughts?
One post Lovecraft story had a religious man pray too hard for children, and the black goat in the woods with a thousand young answered him. Perhaps, they tried to solve their problems by locking the titans out.
I have a module idea where a jeweler creates a cubic gate to get his dead daughter back, and sends the party into the land of the dead. When they get her back, she turns from a pre-petitioner into a noble vampire. Perhaps this cracks the barriers letting your herald in.
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I was actually thinking the herald would get in via the Dreamlands. Would explain the herald's Nightmare Creature templat.
Off the top of my head with this bit:
Herald gets in via Dreamlands, has the job to rip open a gate to Leng, right through the barrier. Does not have the raw magic to do so, so it has to track down something that can: a lost Cubic Gate in a lost city far underground (Orv level). Just activating the gates atarts the barrier crumbling, even if the players shut down the gate. Less of a door opening to another plane and more like taking out a load bearing wall with a small car.
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Ok, another issue has cropped up.
So the general idea so far is that the PCs will do a few odd jobs, get on their feet, make a name for themselves, yadda yadda yadda. Anyway, they'll eventually attract the attention of royalty. Throughout the campaign, said royalty (a queen) will aid them as best as they can, with them acting as a diplomat on behalf of the players during the second half of the campaign.
Problem is, all I got is the race and name: Queen Ju'Leia (Pronounced "Joo-Leia", haven't pinned down the spelling yet), a female Fey Creature Elf. She'll have been in hiding since the barrier went up a thousand or so years before (I don't think fey really age at all anyway), using the Fey Creature's Change Shape ability to hide her Fey nature. Her "badass moment" is late in the war when the Devils start their assault on the Druid's city/tree. She goes to fetch reinforcements and returns with a Rohan sized force of Cold Riders (the Druid's city is in the magic rich north) and leads the charge from the bow of a landbound galleon bristling with cannons and swivel mounted bombards, pulled by a pair of Bandersnatches.
Anyway, short of it is, I need help figuring out what sort of class she'd be should things go south and I find that I need a proper stat-block for her. Her bodyguard would likely mop the floor with the party though (Male Human LN Dread Vampire Magus 15).
Edit: Also, 'cause I feel like sharing, there'll be this little exchange during the war when the armies are massing.
Players (around level 10-15) are walking with the Queen through the encampment, talking strategy.
Me: As you're walking, you notice the soldiers stopping what they're doing. Some take their helmets off respectfully, some drop down on one knee, but all seem to be showing respect.
Player: Why are they kneeling to you?
Me: The queen smiles knowingly at you. "They are not kneeling for me."
<Implying that the soldiers have more respect for the players than the queen that has reigned for more than 1000 years>
First of all, I loved the avatar library episode! I'm still looking to work in into my dungeon somehow.
What level would you want her to have? What kind of queen is she? I would choose her class based on the type of person she is. If you want her to be very wise for example, go cleric. I think sorcerer complements fey.
If you want her to be beautifull choose a class with high charisma (high charisma is always good for a ruler.) Feel free to make choose two classes.
Also, if I'd make her she'd definetly have leadership.
NPC's don't need leadership unless you intend the cohort and the queen to fight the PC's as that would effect the EL w/o leadership.
Class wise high charisma for sure Bard/Cavalier would sound about right to me for a leader who fights along side her army.
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Her protecting the druid city/ world tree, just says druid to me. At least a level dip or 2.
My 2 copper
Well at the point of the Druid City attack everyone's helping everyone else. But the Devils will be breaking out the siege engines for the tree. A combination of the Return of the King and the end of Warcraft 3 springs to mind.
Class wise high charisma for sure Bard/Cavalier would sound about right to me for a leader who fights along side her army.
I may go with this. Give her a little variety. If I have her class level match her bodyguard's, she'd be CR 17 (I think) to his CR 21 (Again, I think. 15 levels in Magus + +6 from Dread Vampire). But, seeing as she's been around longer, would it be unwarrented to either give her the whole Gestalted thing or just ramp up her levels until her CR matches her bodyguard's?
First of all, I loved the avatar library episode! I'm still looking to work in into my dungeon somehow.
What level would you want her to have? What kind of queen is she? I would choose her class based on the type of person she is. If you want her to be very wise for example, go cleric. I think sorcerer complements fey.
If you want her to be beautifull choose a class with high charisma (high charisma is always good for a ruler.) Feel free to make choose two classes.
Also, if I'd make her she'd definetly have leadership.
Animated books everywhere =D May reuse the sphinx character from my first game that I ran, a snarky businesswoman kinda sphinx named Lily. Had a very "...Yes, quite..." kinda attitude.
But yeah, Charisma and Wisdom would be key stats for her with enough strength to hold her own in a fight. I think I may go with the Bard/Cavalier that Moonscar suggested.
Also gonna give her a Lord's Banner 'cause, hey, why not?
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Edit: Would it be too much for the players to ascend to Godhood at the end of the campaign if they die in a sufficiently heroic manner (or overcome insane odds and manage to not only push back the hellish incursion, but survive it as well)? One of the DMs I played under pulled the "you are Gods now" thing once but it ended badly, hence my hesitance at doing it myself, though I think it would work in a Monstrous Regiment kinda way.
15 class levels is a cr 14. (CR=level-1) for pc class levels. 14+6=20
I would imagine her fights would be scripted except for when the PC's are directly imvolved, so I would keep her around the PC's level just to avoid complications during combat. I would also avoid gestalt unless you have a good reason. It would make sense that her body guard is higher level than her.
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15 class levels is a cr 14. (CR=level-1) for pc class levels. 14+6=20
I would imagine her fights would be scripted except for when the PC's are directly imvolved, so I would keep her around the PC's level just to avoid complications during combat. I would also avoid gestalt unless you have a good reason. It would make sense that her body guard is higher level than her.
*Nods*
I don't see her really fighting except maybe in whatever the last fight is (Advanced, Class leveled Pit Fiend or something acting as the general of the armies), and most of her usual battlefield shenanigans would amount to "I got this, you guys go ahead".
Then you might be better off just giving her those abilities she needs and not give her levels at all. Just assign whatever bab saves skills ect you think she needs and make sure they all falk close to whatever CR you want her. Then whatever special abilities/spells you want again close to CR. No point doing it the hard way if its not going to come up. Then just script her fights the only random part of the game should be the PC's so if their not involved no point wasting time rolling dice for something they have no involvement in.