Help with building my Druid

[EsperMagic]

Ok..so long story short, I wanted to be a Wild Caller Summoner because standard summoning with SNA seems like fun. However our GM banned summoners as a whole. So my next option is the line of Shaman archetype druids. Now I know as a whole Lion and Saurian tend to be the cream of the crop there. What I am mainly wondering is for the nature bond with these archetypes, is it better to take the domain or the animal companion?

For Lion Shaman the domain choices are Sun, Glory, Nobility, and Animal
For Saurians they are War, Strength, Destruction, and Animal as well.

My second question is whats better cats or dinosaurs? I know most dinosaurs have an issue being inside due to size, but we are playing Kingmaker so not sure how much of an issue that will be.

Thirdly, with a 20 point buy at level 7 my stats are as follows

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 16
Cha 7

So caster or melee? Which ends up better in the long run?

Also should I just skip the whole shaman idea? And if so, are there any other ways to standard action SNA?

Thanks for any and all answers.

[MrSin]

I think its best to take the animal companion unless you really want to focus on the spell casting. That said the animal companion does fall behind spellcasting at later levels where DR crops up much more often and its own advancement has a hard time keeping up with the outsiders and magical beast your likely to run into.

Caster will always be on top if you want to be all powerful, melee you will have to build around being a melee if you play a druid. Its a playstyle thing and we can't pick for you.

Standard SNA could get pretty cheesy. Your GM may not want to deal with the hordes of monsters that swarm in.

[laarddrym]

DInosaurs get access to huge size earlier through wild shape, whereas Lion Shaman maxxes out with large size through lions/large cats.... sure, you still get to wild shape into other things, but it's at -2 druid level, whereas the Dinosaur shaman gets a better power curve sooner. Also, the dinosaur animal companions are fantastic, I think your better off with the companion than any of those domains. This is only advice if you're dead-set on making one of the shaman archetypes, whereas a non-archetyped druid will be more powerful & more diverse at level 20 since none of their class abilities are limited by an archetype.

Caster vs. melee is a matter of play style. You have good stats for melee, not so much for caster. If you want to be a caster focus, dump strength and max your Wis, and definitely take a domain instead of a familiar. You'll get alot of uses of your level 1 daily power with an 18 or 20 Wis, and your # of spells per day and save DCs will be higher (not to mention your own Will save, which is always good).

If you're starting at level 7, Weather Domain is really cool since you're only 1 level away from the "lightning lord" ability. You also have access to level 4 spells right off the bat, so I think focusing on spellcasting will give you more bang for your buck.

Don't worry about standard action casting Summon Nature's Ally. It's not worth a standard action cast in the "Animal Shaman" archetype, since it's limited to your shaman's animal type. If you go Lion Shaman, the best you'll get out of it is a dire tiger, which is a CR 8 monster. Granted you can add the "advanced" and "giant" templates to it, but you're blowing 8th level spell slots on it at that point. On the other hand, if you decide to make an Animal Shaman, you will already have your animal companion, you'll probably be melee'ing in wild shape form, and summoning ANOTHER animal as a standard action (so it can make a charge & pounce on the same round you cast your spell) is pretty cool.

Long story short: I think pure druids are more powerful and have more options. Archetype druids trade some diversity & power for some neat tricks that have alot of flavor. I'd suggest find out from the rest of your party what they plan to make, as it might influence your decision.... focusing on casting might help if there are already 3 melee characters, whereas wild shape & melee focus would help if there's noone able to tie up enemies in combat.

[EsperMagic]

Thanks, Ive really been looking at some of the domains and being a caster. Probably Weather or Fire..but fire seems so typical haha

[Psion-Psycho]

Have u checked out the Eagle shaman archetype? Other than Dinos its the only 1 that can get a Summoned monster out at every level of the spell. Also u could talk ur DM into having a Roc like i did mine. Personally i find the Eagle Shaman best because of Flyby Attack, scouting, and ability to overcome obstacles like a ladder.

[calagnar]

EsperMagic wrote:

with a 20 point buy at level 7 my stats are as follows

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 16
Cha 7

If your going to focus on casting. You will need to be close to maxing out your Wis. If you don't you will have a very hard time landing spells. As the saves at this level are starting to out strip your DC. It is only going to get worse as you level up. Min starting stat for a Caster is 18. There are a lot of people that will disagree with me. The fact is at low level play you can get away with a starting 16. As that same character levels up they find them self's in trouble trying to get spells to land.

Level 7
Points 13 Wis 19 +1 level 4 = 20 +4 Item = Wis 24 mod 7
Your spells have a DC of 18-21.

This is almost the same for combat characters. But not nearly as bad. You can start with a 16+ in your main stat. And do just fine as a combat base druid. But you will still need to put all you focus on combat or casting. With combat character you only need a Wis of 14. Any more and you really starting loosing out on the point buy system.

Animal companions are for the most part better then domains. The exception to this is for casting Druids. Even then the animal companion can do a lot for the caster. I personally would never give up the animal companion for domain.

As for what animal to take that's up to you. I played a bear shaman up to level 7. I can say the bear was the toughest melee combatant in the party. He out fought the ranger, paladin, monk, and a few others. In damage and AC. I did spend a lot on his equipment. The only reason the bear shaman died he got dominated, and his party focused on killing him because they hade no hope in hurting the bear.

[DM Carpe]

I would suggest going Saurian Shaman and taking the feather domain - they did evolve into birds afterall. That gives you an extra spell at each level and a full strength animal companion at 5th level for a feat.

[soupturtle]

I slightly disagree with laarddrym on what the animal shamans are good for. In my opinion, they're definitely a poor choice for wild shaping (they basically only improve wild shape at levels 6&7, and make it worse at all other levels), they're a meh choice for a pure caster, but they're awesome if you go summoning focused, because standard actions vs full round actions is a huge deal. Standard action summons start taking up space, threatening and attacking one round earlier, and your summoning spell is way harder to disrupt.

Personally, I think saurian shaman is probably the best choice, as the huge variety of dinosaurs will give you something interesting and useful to summon at any level and in any situation.

As for animal companion vs domain: on my awesomeness rater the best option is getting the companion and using it as a mount. As for pure power, getting a companion that acts independently is probably the best option, especially at low-mid levels. But I could also easily see not wanting to track another creature when you're already summoning focused and taking the domain instead.

As for what domain, if you can take subdomains the strength subdomain resolve gives you two pretty useful powers and some decent spells. War has nice spells as well.

edit: Thinking about it some more, I think a saurian shaman might make an awesome 'reach druid'. Basically, just like the reach cleric from Brewer's guide to the reach cleric, but playing a druid instead. A saurian shaman with the War domain using summons, buffs and the odd control spell while hacking away with a longspear or changing into some dinosaur with a single awesome attack and reach sounds awesome to me.

[soupturtle]

Sorry for the double post, but I had another idea that I wanted to share, and it's beyond the edit time frame.

Instead of focusing on combat or casting, you could also decide to focus on combat through your companion. Take a stegosaurus companion, give it the feats power attack, improved natural attack and vital strike and it's doing 16d6 damage. You can ride it, and take the combat reflexes and bodyguard feats to protect it, then spend your first round of combat to summon something and the rest of combat buffing your companion and using aid another.

Buy some mithral chain barding and an amulet of mighty fist, cast barkskin with a lesser rod of extend, and your companion should be tough as nails and doing excellent single attack damage, while it helps your summons destroy all enemies.

This works even better as a halfling, as you can ride the stegosaurus from level 1, get the helpful trait for improved aid another and add 1/4 to all your companion's saves as a favored class bonus.

[Soporific Lotus]

I think the saurian is better because the Allosaurus is probably the best land combat huge form. As you get into higher levels you do not want to use a large form over a huge form unless you have to. Because they only have 3/4 BAB, have to use an amulet of mighty fists, cannot use weapon focus to full capacity due to different attack types, druids eventually have trouble hitting enemies even with their strength bonuses which are partially diminished by their size increase. Kingmaker goes up to at least level 15 so you might have trouble near the end if you go melee.

A full caster starts off much weaker but will probably be more effective than a melee the last two books or so.

The question of the animal companion partially depends on the rest of the part make up. If you go caster is there another party member who could use the flanking bonus? If you go melee do you need an animal companion to provide a flanking bonus? The question to go caster or melee also depends on the rest of the party make up. If you have a wizard, bard, cleric and you then you probably want to go melee and take the animal. If you have a ranger, paladin, witch and you then you probably want to go caster and take a domain.

There is a great guide to the druid as a caster or melee written by Treantmonk you might want to take a look at. As a caster you would want to adjust your stats. The only caveat I would add is that it was written when only core was out and Treantmonk does not think craft wondrous item is that good of a feat and I think the boards agree that it is too good, especially in Kingmaker when you have a lot of time to be spend on crafting. He calls it selling your feat but if you are selling a feat to get a headband and belt early and keep your progression with an amulet of mighty fists then that is a pretty good trade.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab

[Atarlost]

You could focus on combat yourself. SNA doesn't offer a save so your wisdom only matters for bonus spell slots. Pick one of the domains with the good clerical self buffs and hit things with a scimitar until you get wildshape.

Eagle Shaman was suggested above as one of the better summoning shamans. They have access to the Nobility domain which has Divine Favor (cheap to get enough pearls of power to cast every fight by the time it's worth the action) and Magic Vestment (cast once in the morning with a lesser extend rod). Both are good for your wildshaping. They won't entirely offset your access delay because you delay getting rake as well as the size boost and divine favor is better with more attacks, but you can be comparable to a cleric in offense. This appears to be the best "pretend to be a battle cleric" domain.

[calagnar]

soupturtle wrote:

Instead of focusing on combat or casting, you could also decide to focus on combat through your companion. Take a stegosaurus companion, give it the feats power attack, improved natural attack and vital strike and it's doing 16d6 damage. You can ride it, and take the combat reflexes and bodyguard feats to protect it, then spend your first round of combat to summon something and the rest of combat buffing your companion and using aid another.

This is what I did with my druid. At level 7 his bear looked like this. The bear was the heavy melee combatant for the group before the shaman died. The druid was not as tough as a target. You don't need to ride a animal companion just need to invest in equipment, and in this case give up a feet to give it a +2 Str.

Bear Size Medium
Str 23
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 2
Wis 12
Cha 6
HP 45
Speed 30ft
AC 26 (+1 Breast Plate Barding +7, Natural Armor +6, Dex +3,)
Casting bard skin brings it up to 29 for just over a hr.
Attack Bite +8(1D6+10) Claw(2) +8(1D4+10)
Greater magic fang gives a +1 to hit and damage for 7hr.
Fort 8
Ref 7
Will 3
Feet's
Proficiency Light Medium Armor, Power Attack