Alright guys,
I'm well aware of the -2, -2 penalty with the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat, when making an attack with both weapons, but here's my question:
If you make a charge attack with both weapons in your hand (before you get the ability to attack with both under the TWW Archetype), but only attack with one, do you get your normal attack bonus, as opposed to the -2 penalty that comes with Dual Wielding? The same applies for if you choose to attack with one and not both weapons.
Secondly, do you still get the defensive TWW Archetype abilities for wielding two weapons if you attack with only one, but still have the second in your other hand?
Thanks very much. :)
You only take the penalties if you choose to take the extra attack granted by two-weapon fighting.
If you only make a single attack, or if you only use the attacks granted to you from your base attack bonus, you don't take the penalties.
(You can still attack with both weapons during a full attack. You only take the penalties if make the extra attack. If you stick to the number of attacks you get from your base attack bonus, you can still attack with both weapons, with no penalty. Link to the FAQ.)
Secondly, do you still get the defensive TWW Archetype abilities for wielding two weapons if you attack with only one, but still have the second in your other hand?
You must make a full attack with both weapons to use the defensive abilities.
Defensive Flurry (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks until the beginning of his next turn. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 3rd. This ability replaces armor training 1 and 2.
Deadly Defense (Ex): At 19th level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, every creature that hits him with a melee attack before the beginning of his next turn provokes an attack of opportunity from the warrior. This ability replaces armor mastery.
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On the attack with a charge you use your normal attack bonus. Just cause you have another item in your other hand does not mean you get a penalty the only time you get the penalty is when making an attack with both weapons.
Defensive Flurry you have to make a full-attack action with both weapons, so unfortunately you need to attack with both weapons. Source
Secondly, do you still get the defensive TWW Archetype abilities for wielding two weapons if you attack with only one, but still have the second in your other hand?
At 3rd level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full-attack with both weapons, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks until the beginning of his next turn.
You have to attack w/ both weapons to get the AC bonus.
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Alright guys,
I'm well aware of the -2, -2 penalty with the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat, when making an attack with both weapons, but here's my question:
If you make a charge attack with both weapons in your hand (before you get the ability to attack with both under the TWW Archetype), but only attack with one, do you get your normal attack bonus, as opposed to the -2 penalty that comes with Dual Wielding? The same applies for if you choose to attack with one and not both weapons.
Secondly, do you still get the defensive TWW Archetype abilities for wielding two weapons if you attack with only one, but still have the second in your other hand?
Thanks very much. :)
1) According to the Two-Weapon Fighting section of the Combat page of the CRB, if you're only making one attack, you're not considered to be two-weapon fighting, thus your single attack should not apply the penalty.
2) The APG's description for Defensive Flurry and Deadly Defense specify a full attack with both weapons as a requirement.
edit: you guys are quick
Thanks for the clarification. :)
I looked into Two-Weapon Defense and going by RAW, it's awesome that Two-Weapon Defense gives you the +1 defense just from wielding another weapon. It doesn't require you to make a full attack with both weapons, so that's handy.
So, in your case, since Charge only grants you a single melee attack, TWF can't even come into play. Even if you had a longsword, dagger, boulder helmet, armor spikes, boot blade, barbazu beard, and a tail blade, it doesn't count as TWF because you're only making a single melee attack though the charge action.
Edit: Regarding the abilities that gives benefits for making a full attack with both weapons, I'd read that to mean that your full attack must involve both weapons. Meaning you either have to use the second weapon for one of your iteratives or you need to be TWF'ing. So if you're in a situation like vs high AC and don't want to eat the attack penalty but still want the benefit, just use a second weapon for your last iterative attack and you would still qualify for the benefit.
Until you get this at level 9, at least:
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Also, the GM I used to play with (he's not been running things for a while) said that you could only designate one hand as your main attacker, but in my mind, if you're dual wielding, you'll jump between both, so the way I see it is if you're attacking and you have a BAB of 16, you can do the following:
+16 Left hand
+11 Right hand
+6 Left hand
+1 Right hand
Or whatever order you like, but then if you had Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, you could do it in any order, but would HAVE TO DESIGNATE which attacks were your off hands.
Example:
+14 Left hand
+14 Off hand (right or left, doesn't matter. Just call it Off Hand)
+9 Right hand
+9 Off hand
+4 Left hand
+4 Off hand
-1 Right hand
Example 2:
+14 Left hand
+9 Left hand
+4 Left hand
-1 Right hand
+14 Off Hand
+9 Off Hand
+4 Off Hand
I think as long as you state which attack will be considered your Off Hand, you can attack with whichever arm you like in whichever order you like.
As for the worrying about sky high AC, as far as I know, you have to take the -2 penalty on ALL attacks if you choose to attack with your off hand weapon, whether it's on your last attack or not, so you have to bite the attack penalty against sky high AC opponents.
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Until you get this at level 9, at least:
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.Also, the GM I used to play with (he's not been running things for a while) said that you could only designate one hand as your main attacker, but in my mind, if you're dual wielding, you'll jump between both, so the way I see it is if you're attacking and you have a BAB of 16, you can do the following:
+16 Left hand
+11 Right hand
+6 Left hand
+1 Right handOr whatever order you like, but then if you had Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, you could do it in any order, but would HAVE TO DESIGNATE which attacks were your off hands.
Example:
+14 Left hand
+14 Off hand (right or left, doesn't matter. Just call it Off Hand)
+9 Right hand
+9 Off hand
+4 Left hand
+4 Off hand
-1 Right handExample 2:
+14 Left hand
+9 Left hand
+4 Left hand
-1 Right hand
+14 Off Hand
+9 Off Hand
+4 Off HandI think as long as you state which attack will be considered your Off...
This is all too complicated. In Pathfinder, you don't have left and right hands, you have main and off hands. I would rule that the weapon in your main hand is in your main hand for the duration of your full attack, and the same for the off-hand weapon. I would allow the attacks to be rolled in any order, but would encourage consistency from round to round to prevent fitting the rolls to the bonus that maximizes the number of hits "No, that 4 was with my +16 BAB attack, not my +11 BAB attack, I rolled 12 for my +11 BAB attack"
That's fine.
Do Twin Blades and Weapon Specialisation multiply on a critical hit, like Hammer the Gap?
Twin Blades (Ex): At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Do Twin Blades and Weapon Specialisation multiply on a critical hit, like Hammer the Gap?
If it's not precision damage or additional damage dice, then it's multiplied on a critical hit unless it specifically says so.
Nice, so they all multiply. That's good to know!
So, in your case, since Charge only grants you a single melee attack, TWF can't even come into play. Even if you had a longsword, dagger, boulder helmet, armor spikes, boot blade, barbazu beard, and a tail blade, it doesn't count as TWF because you're only making a single melee attack though the charge action.
Edit: Regarding the abilities that gives benefits for making a full attack with both weapons, I'd read that to mean that your full attack must involve both weapons. Meaning you either have to use the second weapon for one of your iteratives or you need to be TWF'ing. So if you're in a situation like vs high AC and don't want to eat the attack penalty but still want the benefit, just use a second weapon for your last iterative attack and you would still qualify for the benefit.
Until you get this at level 9, at least:
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Actually, Doublestrike wouldn't help with that. The defensive abilities specify "a full attack with both weapons". A full attack is a specific full round action that allows multiple attacks. Double strike only allows multiple attacks as a standard action - it is not a full attack.
If the defensive abilities had stated that you only had to attack with both weapons for them to work, then Doublestrike would help. But as the defensive abilities specifically call for a full attack, Doublestrike won't help.
Nah, I was referring to the Charge with Doublestrike. It allows for me to charge with two weapons. I guess you could call it a two-weapon lunge with great distance.
Edit: So it's only good for AoO's? That kinda sucks. I mean if it replaces a Standard Action, I was under the Impression you could make a charge with a Move Action and still have a Standard Action left, because when you charge, you also get an attack action, so surely it would work in that way.
I haven't found any rules to say it doesn't. :/
If you count the movement of a charge as a move action and the single attack as a standard, then being able to attack with two weapons would equal ground with someone charging who wields only one weapon. Surely it was intended to be used that way?
Any official James Jacobs rulings anywhere?
Where is that? I don't remember reading anything about charge with doublestrike under any feats or class features?
Charging is a full-round action
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Yea, and there's nothing that says you can't.
It just allows for you to attack with both weapons in a single standard action, which is why I really want some official ruling on it, because I'll be playing in Jehova's Gladiatorial Arena soon, so I need to know the ins and outs of everything, ha!
The use of Doublestrike is that you get 2 attacks as a standard action, that in itself is a great thing for someone TWF
Meaning that if you have to move for some reason you can still get off more than one attack
Doublestrike does not apply to AoOs, thats Equal Opportunity, that lets you attack with both weapons in an AoO
You cannot use both a standard action AND a full-round action normally
If you charge you get an attack, not a "standard action" so you get one attack only, its spelled out right in my quote of charge
Ah okay. I was under the impression everything could be broken up into segments, like the movement of a charge covers your move action, leaving a standard action there.
Hmm, that sucks, but I'll just have to be more tactical without the use of Charge....though charging and Tripping sounds fun. I know you only get a bonus on Bull Rush from charging, not Tripping. :)
wording of actions is very important, be careful when you read them
I have one more question that's more combat related than TWW Class related.
If you win initiative and ready an action to swipe with your sword (Doublestrike would apply here) before tumbling around the enemy with Acrobatics as it charges towards you, can you attack it mid roll or would it be a case of you're so nimble and battle trained that you swipe it just as you roll around it to avoid being trampled?
Maybe in game mechanics don't matter for this too much, but I'm thinking if you fail your acrobatics, whether the opponent has over-run or not, you'll get trampled.
You can only ready a single action, so yes you can ready an action to "Doublestrike"
You do not tumble to avoid someone charging you, but you can allow them to pass through your square if they specifically tries to overrun you during a charge, but not if they simply attack or bull rush.
Hmm, so how would double striking and using acrobatics to roll out of the way work, because Double Strike replaces that single standard action with the extra-ordinary ability of double striking, leaving you with a move action still.
Rolling behind people seems like a good idea, but I understand Pathfinder doesn't work on which direction someone is facing, so you can't roll behind them to catch them flat-footed etc, but my plan was to double strike and then roll out of the way.
As for the previous questions, yep that's pretty crystal clear now, heh. Though it still seems silly a person with two weapons can't charge and attack with two weapons. It's like they have an arm that's useless during a charge.
In reality if you run with two weapons to attack someone, you will attack them with both weapons. :p
You can only ready ONE action, so it would go like this in your scenario
'V' readies an action to Doublestrike 'D' if he moves into his range (charging or otherwise)
'D' charges (or just moves in front of 'V'), 'V' takes his readied action and Doublestrikes 'D', 'D' if still able continues with the rest of his actions, in this case attacking 'V'
You only get that one action and your turn ends. Your initiative for the following rounds will be right before the action that triggered it, so you would go right before 'D' in this case
Okay, so you would literally have to just stand there while he charges you regardless of whether you attack or not...
That seems a little silly, but then I guess you can then use a standard acrobatics (without moving outside of your square) to dodge the oncoming target?
Edit @Kazaan: Okay, so you could either choose to attack him with a readied double strike, but then you're unable to use acrobatics and have him run straight into you...or you can not attack, roll 10ft away with the withdraw action from where the charger has stopped and then 5 ft step into him to full attack?
I guess these things are limited. I just always figured if something's charging at you, you could either ready or hold your go to just before they make contact with you, then roll around and attack or attack and then roll.
Perhaps you could ready to attack, then allow the charger to pass through your square with the acrobatics check...or it's just allowed. If that works, it's fine. I just need to work out the in game mechanics for the real life tactics I'll be using in the Arena.
I see "charge" as much more than simply running up to someone to hit them, I see it as you running recklessly at them at a break point speed to get one good smack (hence the +2 atk and -2 AC)
"in reality" is never a good argument with PF or any RPG game, the normal argument against reality is "but...dragon"
charging takes as much finesse as hitting the broad side of a barn, fighting with two weapons takes much more finesse and care, charging with 2 weapons and trying to attack with them "in reality" may end up with you in the hospital because of a slight miscalculation (ive seen it...its nasty)
things are very limited, but then again your GM is the final say in ANYTHING you want to do, just don't try and argue about it if its outside the rules, make your case, he decides, go with that decision
IF you do that remember, everything goes both ways. You may charge someone only to find they have now moonsaulted over your head and tripped you, making your next round not so fun :)
Lol. :p
Yea, see I have to compare to reality because when I compare to Animé or Computer Games, people tell me "You can't compare", but then the same is said when comparing to reality, so it's an unwinnable comparison.
I'm thinking you can also move your 30ft distance, jump at a mounted person and then use trip to de-mount them. Could be wrong though. It's because you're specifically targeting them, so a bull rush wouldn't quite cut it and I feel the mechanics allow for you to do such a mental thing....running your 30ft, jumping at a mounted person and then shoving them from their mount, throwing them off balance/tripping them.
Maybe normal people would just hack the legs out from the mount, but most people don't use the de-limb mechanics in pathfinder, so it won't happen that way. It's kill the mount or don't bother attacking it. :p
Yea, I think the to hit bonus is +4 with all attacks on a downed opponent, with their to hit penalty at a -4 on all attacks due to them being prone.
I guess that's the trade off though. You can ready your action to try and trip an opponent, risking being hit with that oh so powerful mounted lance charge, or you can ready a restricted withdraw action to move 10 feet away, to 5 foot step back in with a full attack.
you can ready a restricted withdraw action
Restricted Withdraw: "If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action."
Ready: Can you ready an action to charge?
No. The rules for a charge state that you can take a charge action as a standard action if you are "restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn". Although the ready action text states that you can take a standard action, it does not meet the requirements of the text in the charge action. (See Core Rulebook pages 198 and 203)
—Jason Bulmahn, 06/16/11
Readying an action does not restrict you to taking only a standard action each round, thus you cannot ready a restricted withdraw.
Well, it's back to readying an action to roll with acrobatics out of harms way for everyone then. :p