Fame, double weapons, and shields

[SCPRedMage]

Recently, I've been prepping a character specializing in beating people to death with shields, which of course brings up the economics of enchanting a shield as both a weapon and as armor (which is explicitly allowed by RAW, as per the shield descriptions; I'm running under the assumption you'd have to pay for the shield to be a masterwork weapon separately from being a masterwork shield, for a total of 450gp to be masterwork as both).

Sure, Shield Master allows me to use the shield's enhancement bonus as a weapon enhancement bonus, but that requires BAB +11, putting it at the very end of the character's career. Once I give it the Bashing ability it counts as a +1 weapon when shield bashing, but just like with Shield Master, it's not actually a +1 weapon (just treated as one for the purposes of the attack), so I'd still need to pay for the +1 weapon enhancement bonus before I can add weapon abilities, such as Flaming or Holy.

Then, I came across this bit:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, page 26, Benefits of Fame wrote:

For double weapons, calculate the cost of each end separately when considering Fame purchasing limits.

So it appears there's some precedent for factoring two separate enchantments separately, for fame purposes.

So my question is: does this mean that, when enchanting a shield as both armor and a weapon, I would calculate the cost of the armor enchantment and the weapon enchantment separately for fame requirement purposes?

Strict reading says no, but a logical approach to that rule (separate enchantments, such as each end of a double weapon having to be enchanted on their own, are separate entities for fame requirements) would indicate yes, so the "common sense" rule may well over-ride the strict RAW reading.

Mechanically, there's no reason this shouldn't be allowed, because the shield would still be fame-gated as any other weapon would be; if it's NOT allowed, it's fame-gate in a MUCH more restrictive manner than normal.

As much as I'd like to think the logical approach is reasonable, this isn't something I'm comfortable actually doing without some form of official clarification...

[Brian Lefebvre]

To do what you want to do with the shield you will need to buy the shield and buy shield spikes on that shield. You would enchant the shield as armor and the spikes as a weapon while determining the total value of the spiked shield separately for fame purchase limits.

Since there are no price guidelines listed in the CRB or UE for a combo magic weapon/magic armor shield, it would fall into the custom crafting rules(just like a combo ring of protection & feather falling) which are not legal to use in PFS. But if it were possible a shield by itself enchanted with both weapon and shield abilities would count as a single item for determining the total value of your fame spending cap.

[SCPRedMage]

Brian Lefebvre wrote:

To do what you want to do with the shield you will need to buy the shield and buy shield spikes on that shield. You would enchant the shield as armor and the spikes as a weapon while determining the total value of the spiked shield separately for fame purchase limits.

Since there are no price guidelines listed in the CRB or UE for a combo magic weapon/magic armor shield, it would fall into the custom crafting rules(just like a combo ring of protection & feather falling) which are not legal to use in PFS. But if it were possible a shield by itself enchanted with both weapon and shield abilities would count as a single item for determining the total value of your fame spending cap.

To the contrary.

Shield Bash Attacks wrote:

An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Shields themselves can be enchanted as magic weapons, with or without shield spikes. They can explicitly be enchanted as shields (armor), they can explicitly be enchanted as weapons, and there are no rules explicitly stating you can't do both at once. If the idea of two independent enchantments on one physical item is giving you trouble, just keep double weapons in mind: it CAN be done.

Also, shield spikes are not a separate item, and thus can't be enchanted separately. The description explicitly calls out that they do nothing more than modify the shield's shield bash attack (specifically, they increase the damage die and change the type to piercing). You can't enchant shield spikes (because it's not an item, it's an option), but you can enchant a spiked shield.

Similarly to what I'll (eventually) be doing, double weapons have to have each end enchanted separately (and the masterwork price is doubled); the total price is the base item price plus the the price of both ends; thus a +1/+1 two-bladed sword costs 4,700gp (100gp base item + 600gp masterwork + 2,000gp for +1 on the primary end + 2,000gp on the secondary end). EDIT: According to what I quoted in the OP, you calculate the item cost for each end separately for double weapons to determine if you have the fame needed to purchase it.

As an example, let's say I want to get a heavy spike shield enchanted as a +1 Bashing shield, and a +1 Flaming weapon (both those abilities are priced as +1 bonuses). The total price would be 12,480gp (20gp for base + 10gp for spikes + 150gp for masterwork (armor) + 300gp for masterwork (weapon) + 4,000gp for shield enchantment + 8,000gp for weapon enchantment).

That I can do this is fully by RAW. My only question is how do I handle the fame requirement:
1. By the item's total price (12,480gp), requiring 31 fame
2. Separately (8,330gp price for the weapon, 4,180gp for the shield), requiring 27 fame.

At that low end, the difference in fame is only four points, but at higher levels that's going to increase much more rapidly.

Plus, there's the question of when I could upgrade it. If I enchant it as a +1 shield and a +1 weapon, it still qualifies as "Always Available", since every aspect still falls under that heading. But if I want to upgrade it with Bashing, do I need 22 fame for the full 6,480gp, or would 18 fame to cover the 4,180gp for the shield aspect cover it?

[Castilliano]

A 6th level Ranger can get Shield Master (APG), and save you a whole lot of money.

As for OP question, I'd follow the precedent of the double weapon.
It's one item with two components. Those two components can be enchanted normally (as per PFS rules) and are separate for Fame purposes and pricing, even though it's still one item re: sunder, etc.
(Hmmm...figuring it's Hardness & h.p. may be a bit tough.)

BTW, what are you doing with your other hand?

Edit to add:
It does feel a bit strange having Bashing be on the armor component, even though it's aiding the weapon component.

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

Agreed, I'd go with the double weapon precedent. The other is too restrictive to be of use.

[SCPRedMage]

Castilliano wrote:

BTW, what are you doing with your other hand?

Light shield. :D

EDIT:

Castilliano wrote:

A 6th level Ranger can get Shield Master (APG), and save you a whole lot of money.

Yeah, but I want to use at least medium armor (which Rangers could do) without slowing down (which Rangers CAN'T do).

Plus, ALL OF THE FEATS. Not to mention, as I said, even with Shield Master you can't give the shield magic weapon abilities like Flaming until it actually has a +1 weapon enhancement bonus.

[Illeist]

SCPRedMage wrote:

EDIT:

Castilliano wrote:

A 6th level Ranger can get Shield Master (APG), and save you a whole lot of money.

Yeah, but I want to use at least medium armor (which Rangers could do) without slowing down (which Rangers CAN'T do).

Plus, ALL OF THE FEATS. Not to mention, as I said, even with Shield Master you can't give the shield magic weapon abilities like Flaming until it actually has a +1 weapon enhancement bonus.

You know, Mithral Breastplates are a lot cheaper than adding weapon enchantments to a shield... Plus, you can move to Fighter after six levels if you still want feats.

I'd recommend against putting Bashing on a shield, especially if you're planning on adding weapon enhancements or picking up Shield Master. Adding properties like Flaming are barely worth giving up the +1, and the 1d6 damage they add provides an elemental alternative and bypasses DR. When you're adding Bashing to a heavy spiked shield, your damage goes up by 1d6 (1d6->2d6), and that 1d6 isn't nearly as good as a d6 of fire.

[Castilliano]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

BTW, what are you doing with your other hand?

Light shield. :D

EDIT:

Castilliano wrote:

A 6th level Ranger can get Shield Master (APG), and save you a whole lot of money.

Yeah, but I want to use at least medium armor (which Rangers could do) without slowing down (which Rangers CAN'T do).

Rangers can do.

By becoming Horizon Walkers. :)
Also you get Lead Blades & Resist Energy as a Ranger. Great spells.

Re: Money
+2 Flaming=18K w/ +2 Bashing Shield=9K
vs. +4 Bashing Shield=25K
Difference:
Dam +1d6 (energy) vs. Att. +2 Dam. +2 & 2K g.p.
Moving up to next level is even more pronounced in price.

If you are TWF, which is seems you are, the cost difference and attack bonus become even more important.

Cheers, and good luck with it,
JMK

Edit: Oh, and +2 AC too!

[SCPRedMage]

Castilliano wrote:

Rangers can do.
By becoming Horizon Walkers. :)
Also you get Lead Blades & Resist Energy as a Ranger. Great spells.

Re: Money
+2 Flaming=18K w/ +2 Bashing Shield=9K
vs. +4 Bashing Shield=25K
Difference:
Dam +1d6 (energy) vs. Att. +2 Dam. +2 & 2K g.p.
Moving up to next level is even more pronounced in price.

If you are TWF, which is seems you are, the cost difference and attack bonus become even more important.

Cheers, and good luck with it,
JMK

Edit: Oh, and +2 AC too!

It took me a while to figure out what you meant by that; at this point, I can only imagine that you're referring to the Plains Terrain Dominance class feature, which increases a creature's base speed by 10 feet. This would effectively give me a 30ft move speed in medium/heavy armor, with the added bonus of a 40ft move speed in light/no armor.

However, the earliest one could take the class is seventh level, as it requires six ranks in Knowledge (geography), and they don't get their first Terrain Dominance until the third class level, meaning you can't have it until NINTH level.

At that point I might as well just do a three level dip into Fighter for Armor Training 1. Heck, I could get Armor Training 2 sooner on a straight Fighter.

That being said, I'm also looking at taking Fighter-only options like Weapon Training (close) and Weapon Specialization, not to mention needing to double up on Weapon Focus/Specialization for them to apply to both light and heavy shields (although I'll probably just take Martial Versatility for both, so they'll apply to the entire weapon group).

Also, I'm wanting this to be a simple, fun build; I get enough rules-hijinks with my Alchemist/Gunslinger and Samurai characters, so I'd rather avoid the hassles of spellcasting and favored enemies for this one.

[Howie23]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Then, I came across this bit:

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, page 26, Benefits of Fame wrote:

For double weapons, calculate the cost of each end separately when considering Fame purchasing limits.

So it appears there's some precedent for factoring two separate enchantments separately, for fame purposes.

So my question is: does this mean that, when enchanting a shield as both armor and a weapon, I would calculate the cost of the armor enchantment and the weapon enchantment separately for fame requirement purposes?

I think that it is reasonable that the Guide be changed to include what you are saying for shields. The wording that would be required would be as simple as:

Howie's Proposed Change to Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, page 26, Benefits of Fame wrote:

For double weapons, calculate the cost of each end, and for shields that are enchanted as both defensive shield and weapon, calculate the cost of both defensive shield and weapon separately when considering Fame purchasing limits.

Since the guide update cycle takes longer, a proposed FAQ entry that would get the same effect for you would be:

Howie's Proposed Change to the PFS FAQ wrote:

The following appears in Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, page 26, Benefits of Fame, "For double weapons, calculate the cost of each end separately when considering Fame purchasing limits." Does this also apply to shields that are enchanted both as magic shields and magic weapons?
Yes. For shields, calculate the cost of the shield enchantment and the weapon enchantment separately when considering Fame purchasing limits.

The rule as it currently stands doesn't permit what you want. A good general rule in organized play environments is that if you are looking at a rule for which you want a more liberal interpretation, you should be willing to accept the conservative interpretations in order to play the character or otherwise force the issue. The alternative is that you rely upon the liberal ruling; all will be fine until you game with a GM who reasonably applies the exemption for double weapons only to double weapons. This encounter with a GM will invariably be strained and uncomfortable for both parties. Recognize the nature of organized play, accept it, and make the experience better for yourself, the GM, and the other players at the table.

[SCPRedMage]

Howie23,

I agree with your assessment of the RAW 100%; the main point of the thread is fishing for "official clarification" to allow for it, which would suffice for allowing it, rather than a change to the Guide.

Remember, official forum post clarifications are binding. :P

That being said, I'm not even starting this character until this Friday, and I'll be playing him once a week, tops, so it'll be a LONG while before this actually becomes an issue for me (plan to go straight for +1 Bashing before maybe going for weapon special abilities), but I figure it's probably something the community at large could benefit from...

EDIT: Plus, I do things as "by-the-book" as I can, meaning without a clarification I'd stick to the more conservative RAW interpretation, which would avoid the potential "strained" GM encounter.

[Castilliano]

Second level Horizon Walker (plains) is not slowed by Medium, so 30 ft.
At 3rd you go 40 ft in medium. Leaving you better off in the end.
And then there's Dim Door...

I don't like Favored Enemy either, too erratic, but Guide archetype means the BBEG will always get +2/+2 smackdown. (+4/+4 at 5th)
Plus all those skills are so nice...

Anyway, good luck,
JMK

[SCPRedMage]

Castilliano wrote:

Second level Horizon Walker (plains) is not slowed by Medium, so 30 ft.

At 3rd you go 40 ft in medium. Leaving you better off in the end.
And then there's Dim Door...

I don't like Favored Enemy either, too erratic, but Guide archetype means the BBEG will always get +2/+2 smackdown. (+4/+4 at 5th)
Plus all those skills are so nice...

Anyway, good luck,
JMK

A derpa derpa durr, looks like I completely overlooked that Terrain Mastery, silly me.

That said, fighter gains that about five levels sooner, and I'm a firm believer of "be awesome now"; I tend not to go for builds that can only do what I want them to do in the last 25% of their career. Plus, at level seven I can switch over to full plate and not slow down; that puts me in heavy armor just as the ranger can take his first level of horizon walker.

Actually, make that SPIKED full plate, just for s**ts and giggles. :D

Not to mention I'm looking to be pretty strapped for feats, even as a fighter:
Human Two-Weapon Fighting
1 Improved Shield Bash
1 Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield)
2 Double Slice
3 Two-Weapon Rend
4 Weapon Specialization (Heavy Shield)
5 Martial Versatility (Weapon Focus)
6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7 Shield Slam
8 Martial Versatility (Weapon Specialization)

If you remove the fighter-only feats (Weapon Specialization and Martial Versatility), that's still seven feats; adding in Shield Mastery at sixth drives that up to eight. I could also drop Weapon Focus, which would do it (four feats from level, one from human, two bonus feats), although some would end up delayed.

Between Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training, I'm looking at +1 attack/+3 damage to ALL enemies (not just the BBEG) that the ranger/horizon walker can't grab, making them nastier shield-bashers in general.

[Castilliano]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

Second level Horizon Walker (plains) is not slowed by Medium, so 30 ft.

At 3rd you go 40 ft in medium. Leaving you better off in the end.
And then there's Dim Door...

I don't like Favored Enemy either, too erratic, but Guide archetype means the BBEG will always get +2/+2 smackdown. (+4/+4 at 5th)
Plus all those skills are so nice...

Anyway, good luck,
JMK

A derpa derpa durr, looks like I completely overlooked that Terrain Mastery, silly me.

That said, fighter gains that about five levels sooner, and I'm a firm believer of "be awesome now"; I tend not to go for builds that can only do what I want them to do in the last 25% of their career. Plus, at level seven I can switch over to full plate and not slow down; that puts me in heavy armor just as the ranger can take his first level of horizon walker.

Actually, make that SPIKED full plate, just for s**ts and giggles. :D

Not to mention I'm looking to be pretty strapped for feats, even as a fighter:
Human Two-Weapon Fighting
1 Improved Shield Bash
1 Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield)
2 Double Slice
3 Two-Weapon Rend
4 Weapon Specialization (Heavy Shield)
5 Martial Versatility (Weapon Focus)
6 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7 Shield Slam
8 Martial Versatility (Weapon Specialization)

If you remove the fighter-only feats (Weapon Specialization and Martial Versatility), that's still seven feats; adding in Shield Mastery at sixth drives that up to eight. I could also drop Weapon Focus, which would do it (four feats from level, one from human, two bonus feats), although some would end up delayed.

Between Weapon Specialization and Weapon Training, I'm looking at +1 attack/+3 damage to ALL enemies (not just the BBEG) that the ranger/horizon walker can't grab, making them nastier shield-bashers in general.

Yes.

And...no.

As shown above, the Ranger build gets such a better weapon (+2/+2 advantage over +1d6) for less total price, so att/damage are a bit closer.
With a +2 AC advantage.
And Lead Blades.
And Longstrider. And I think Feather Step, too.

And there's a stat tax here too. Your Dex needs to be relatively high to get TWF/Imp TWF. Unless you get it as a Ranger. (Though Imp TWF may have to wait.)
This stat imbalance, if not hurting your Str, will hurt your skills and saves, turning you into a rather imbalanced PFS character. If you play with the same PCs, it's unimportant, you'll develop around that. But all you'll be is a combat monkey, and lord knows those are commonplace.

I say draft two versions of each PC, at 6th & 10th, and see which you think beats the other in PFS play. (Faction Missions, chase scenes, stealth, survival, spellcaster enemies, etc.)

Cheers, JMK

[SCPRedMage]

Castilliano wrote:

Yes.

And...no.

As shown above, the Ranger build gets such a better weapon (+2/+2 advantage over +1d6) for less total price, so att/damage are a bit closer.
With a +2 AC advantage.
And Lead Blades.
And Longstrider. And I think Feather Step, too.

And there's a stat tax here too. Your Dex needs to be relatively high to get TWF/Imp TWF. Unless you get it as a Ranger. (Though Imp TWF may have to wait.)
This stat imbalance, if not hurting your Str, will hurt your skills and saves, turning you into a rather imbalanced PFS character. If you play with the same PCs, it's unimportant, you'll develop around that. But all you'll be is a combat monkey, and lord knows those are commonplace.

I say draft two versions of each PC, at 6th & 10th, and see which you think beats the other in PFS play. (Faction Missions, chase scenes, stealth, survival, spellcaster enemies, etc.)

Cheers, JMK

Look, you're advocating I wait until higher level to do the things I want to do, that I can do MUCH sooner by doing things the way I intend to.

As I said, I'm firmly of the "be awesome NOW" school of thought. I'm not going to wait until level eight to move at full speed in medium armor, when I can do the same thing at level three as a fighter, not to mention doing the same thing in HEAVY armor at level seven. I'm not the type of person to slog through seven levels of play, just so I can do what I wanted to do for four whole levels.

Yes, with the Sword and Shield combat style, I can get Shield Master at level six. Shield Master still doesn't help me add weapon special abilities to the shield, which is my primary concern for enchanting it.

Yes, rangers get to cast spells, which can be extremely useful, particularly just the ability to use a wand of Cure Light. Lead Blades still doesn't stack with the Bashing enchantment, and spellcasting still doesn't work with the character concept.

I'm happy with the character WITHOUT the Shield Master feat, and I am NOT going to contort my character concept to work around this ONE cheesy feat when it means I have to sacrifice other aspects of the character to the degree I'd have to. Not every character needs to be "El Super Optimize-o".

PS: A "stat-tax" of a 15 Dex and a +2 Dex belt is HARDLY painful, considering that it helps my AC quite a bit. Yes, it means I need to essentially pay 1.5x the cost to raise my Strength, too (+6,000gp to upgrade to a Belt of Physical Might +2, as opposed to the 4,000gp of the Belt of Giant Strength +2), but that's not something I'm worried about.

[Jason Wu]

Try using a klar. Does damage as a heavy spiked shield, but "counts as a light shield with armor spikes".

One downside, you get associated with Shoanti or Varisians.

-j

[Furious Kender]

Illeist wrote:

SCPRedMage wrote:

EDIT:

Castilliano wrote:

A 6th level Ranger can get Shield Master (APG), and save you a whole lot of money.

Yeah, but I want to use at least medium armor (which Rangers could do) without slowing down (which Rangers CAN'T do).

Plus, ALL OF THE FEATS. Not to mention, as I said, even with Shield Master you can't give the shield magic weapon abilities like Flaming until it actually has a +1 weapon enhancement bonus.

You know, Mithral Breastplates are a lot cheaper than adding weapon enchantments to a shield... Plus, you can move to Fighter after six levels if you still want feats.

I'd recommend against putting Bashing on a shield, especially if you're planning on adding weapon enhancements or picking up Shield Master. Adding properties like Flaming are barely worth giving up the +1, and the 1d6 damage they add provides an elemental alternative and bypasses DR. When you're adding Bashing to a heavy spiked shield, your damage goes up by 1d6 (1d6->2d6), and that 1d6 isn't nearly as good as a d6 of fire.

It's not at all clear than Bashing increases damage from shield spikes. It's been debated over and over again in the rules forums. At a minimum you should expect table variation.

Also, 1d6 damage of a type you are already subjecting to DR is worth a lot more than 1d6 of a type that can be resisted separately. Say for example, when you bash outsiders, you will be losing dr 5,10, or 15 and then have them use their elemental resistances against the flaming.

[SCPRedMage]

Furious Kender wrote:

It's not at all clear than Bashing increases damage from shield spikes. It's been debated over and over again in the rules forums. At a minimum you should expect table variation.

Also, 1d6 damage of a type you are already subjecting to DR is worth a lot more than 1d6 of a type that can be resisted separately. Say for example, when you bash outsiders, you will be losing dr 5,10, or 15 and then have them use their elemental resistances against the flaming.

Paizo's own statblocks show a +5 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield does 2d6 base damage, which is how much damage it'd do assuming they DO stack. I have yet to find any other Paizo statblock that shows the damage of a Bashing spiked shield; I've seen ONE other statblock from them that has a Bashing spiked shield, but it didn't include its attack breakdown.

Add to that the oft-mentioned posts from James Jacobs being based on his misconception that shield spikes are a separate weapon, and don't count as making a shield bash (a misconception that directly contradict the actual description of shield spikes, which state in no uncertain terms that they only modify the shield's bash attack), and I'm secure enough in my belief that they DO stack to take advantage of them.

@Jason Wu: I <3 you LONG time; I've been looking for a weapon in the close group that can do slashing damage, and despite not actually being listed itself, the klar would fit the bill (due to the "counts as a light shield" bit, and it doesn't appear on ANY weapon group list). There ARE more drawbacks than you mentioned, though:
1. Highly doubtful Bashing enchantment could apply, as it's questionable if attacking with it counts as a "shield bash".
2. Confusion as to whether it's a "light weapon" or not; RotRL Player's Guide states it counts as a light weapon "for the purpose of penalties on attack rolls", but the Ultimate Equipment has no such statement.

[Jason Wu]

The entry from Ultimate Equipment is where I got the "counts as a light shield with armor spikes".

"The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes. The klar’s shield entry appears on page 12."

The shield entry on page 12 just repeats the weapon entry word for word, minus the last page reference sentence.

A light shield with armor spikes is a light weapon for purposes of shield bashing. As the Klar entry makes no restriction on how it counts as a light shield with armor spikes, it should count in all ways, including for what enchantments it qualifies for.

-j

[Castilliano]

Sorry to put you on the defensive, or feel like I was pushing you away from your build. From the OP it sounded like you wanted to make Shield Master work earlier. I didn't understand you had little interest in it.

I don't think Shield Master is broken because using a shield as your main weapon is not a min/max decision.

Good luck with your PC, JMK

[SCPRedMage]

Castilliano wrote:

Sorry to put you on the defensive, or feel like I was pushing you away from your build. From the OP it sounded like you wanted to make Shield Master work earlier. I didn't understand you had little interest in it.

I don't think Shield Master is broken because using a shield as your main weapon is not a min/max decision.

Good luck with your PC, JMK

The OP wasn't about Shield Master; it was about how to handle the fame requirement for enchanting a shield separately as a weapon and as a shield (armor). By the standard rules, you'd use the combined price of the weapon and shield enchantments, but double weapons (the only other time I know of that weapons or armor can receive multiple enchantments) are explicitly ruled to be handled separately for fame.

The point was to fish for official clarification on whether or not we should follow the double weapons precedent, or use the total price.

Also, I don't think Shield Master is broken, just a little cheesy.

[Jason Wu]

SCPRedMage wrote:

2. Confusion as to whether it's a "light weapon" or not; RotRL Player's Guide states it counts as a light weapon "for the purpose of penalties on attack rolls", but the Ultimate Equipment has no such statement.

I just re-read both entries. There was a significant rules change.

Under RotRL, the Klar would NOT qualify for Bashing or other shield attack options, because it was more or less mechanically a short sword attached to a light shield - you were making a regular weapon attack, not a shield bash.

However, Ultimate Equipment supercedes this, and has altered the mechanics on how the Klar works. Rather than a separate weapon attack, it is explicitly now a light spiked shield and uses the shield bash rules. It just has better base damage.

-j

[SCPRedMage]

Which makes me wonder why it's listed as a "one-handed" weapon, when the intent was explicitly to attack with it as a "light" weapon; what it sounds like the intent was was to allow you to off-hand with it as a light weapon, but still allow you to two-hand it (for 1.5x Str damage), like with a one-handed weapon.

Which is... weird, and probably unnecessarily complicated.

[Don Walker]

I took a look at the Fame requirements for a shield with both AC and weapon magic enhancements.

First, at +1/+1 the shield is Always Available.

At either +1/+2 or +2/+1 the Fame requirements are the same whether or not you use the double weapon rule.

At +2/+2 there is only a 4 Fame point difference, which is really not a big difference.

Adding one more plus either way is no different.

At +3/+3 there is again, only a 4 point Fame difference.

Currently shields do not use the Double Weapon rule, because they are not double weapons (and half the cost is for an AC magic enhancement which costs half as much as a weapon enhancement anyhow).

Looking at the 4 point difference it doesn't really seem to be that big a deal.

[SCPRedMage]

I understand the logic of a +1/+1 shield being Always Available; all components of the item are designated as such. Of course, I'm much more likely to go for a +1 Bashing shield before a +1/+1; it's only 1,000gp more, and nets two die size increases, along with being treated as a +1 weapon when attacking with it.

As to the specific Fame requirements, I'm not terribly concerned about it; it's more of a curiosity thing, really.

[teribithia9]

I'd really like an answer on this, too, actually. Thinking about making a fighter that does the same sort of thing. If the answer is, you don't use the double weapon precedent--you have to have the fame for both because it's one item, that's ok. But it would be nice to know.

[Luthril]

Two weapon fighting with Klars just sounds awesome and someone needs to play this....