Our game allows, once you reach +11 BAB, an extra iterative attack on a standard action. If you take it, both attacks are made at -5.
So for my 15th level fighter, for example, he can hit once at +15, or twice at +10/+5. We used not to use the penalty, but the GM found that to encourage excessive degrees of rocket tag.
(I'm not entirely sure the change has helped, though; I think we mainly have melee rocket tag because we have a bard and two martials, and buffing martial offense into the stratosphere is basically what a bard is best at.)
I've been thinking what might happen if one simply used a model where you allowed all attacks on a standard, with a -5 penalty on them all. Keeps actual full attacking, as well as options like Pounce, superior, while still allowing significant mobility.
Probably still ends in a lot of dead squishies (and even some dead non-squishies, monster full attacks can kill melee too) though. It definitely makes neglecting AC/melee defenses a lot more of a risk than it is currently, since tactical movement would no longer be able to substitute for actual defenses. A high AC could severely punish the guy who moves and takes attacks at the penalty, but if you don't bother with your defense, it won't bother him.
Then again, another part of me says that if archers can already be allowed to full attack more frequently without destroying the game, the only key to making sure that a melee mobile offense is balanced is making sure it's a bit less deadly than an archer is on turns when the melee has to move. A penalty of the ideal magnitude ought to be able to accomplish that.
Dude, I would love this. I want spring attack and whirlwind strike anyway on my fighter. The stats are not to hard either.Becuase obviously the feat would require a bunch of unneeeded prereqs. To get that your going to need dodge, mobility, spring attack, combat expertise, 12 levels in fighter, 13 int, 13 wisdom, 16 dex, two weapon fighting, acrobatics...
The problem was already stated. It becomes a must have feat. Things that are must have should probably already be integrated into a class. Probably so a seemingly great archetype can take it away and become another pointless npc archetype.
Also pounce, if everyone has it, quickly turns the game into rocket tag. Which is not fun for everyone.
I was refering to PF's standard of making feat chains long and giving them entirely unneeded feat taxes and requirements. Also to archetypes usually being meh and sometimes taking away important things. I know everyone would love Pounce, its a big bonus!
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Better is allowing the Fighter to get Pounce as a feat. Make it say available @ F11, with some other feat as a pre-req. Other choice would be giving Fighter the Vital Strike chain for free. It’s kinda “meh” anyway. But for free? Darn right.Problem is that this must be available to other Martial classes, or they get left out, and then it becomes a 'must have' feat for every martial - and every monster.Why is it a problem?
Barbarians get Pounce with their rage so why can't fighter's get it as a fighter only feat?
Because that gimps the ranger, monk, paladin, cavelier etc. by comparison.
Therefore it's a general feat. That means everyone that can get it, will get it.
To be honest, I think Vital Strike was meant to help this issue, but failed. If it gave a flat 1d6 damage bonus per 3 BAB the character had on a standard attack, it would be way, way better and go a long way to fixing this problem.
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Better is allowing the Fighter to get Pounce as a feat. Make it say available @ F11, with some other feat as a pre-req. Other choice would be giving Fighter the Vital Strike chain for free. It’s kinda “meh” anyway. But for free? Darn right.Problem is that this must be available to other Martial classes, or they get left out, and then it becomes a 'must have' feat for every martial - and every monster.Why is it a problem?
Barbarians get Pounce with their rage so why can't fighter's get it as a fighter only feat?
Because that gimps the ranger, monk, paladin, cavelier etc. by comparison.
Therefore it's a general feat. That means everyone that can get it, will get it.
To be honest, I think Vital Strike was meant to help this issue, but failed. If it gave a flat 1d6 damage bonus per 3 BAB the character had on a standard attack, it would be way, way better and go a long way to fixing this problem.
And yet the barbarian isn't gimping those classes with pounce and somehow the fighter will?
I'm afraid you just aren't making any sense nor have you really thought about it. Seems to me like it's just a knee jerk reaction and besides, the paladin and ranger have their own little goodies so making it a fighter only feat would be fine.
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Better is allowing the Fighter to get Pounce as a feat. Make it say available @ F11, with some other feat as a pre-req. Other choice would be giving Fighter the Vital Strike chain for free. It’s kinda “meh” anyway. But for free? Darn right.Problem is that this must be available to other Martial classes, or they get left out, and then it becomes a 'must have' feat for every martial - and every monster.Why is it a problem?
Barbarians get Pounce with their rage so why can't fighter's get it as a fighter only feat?
Because that gimps the ranger, monk, paladin, cavelier etc. by comparison.
Therefore it's a general feat. That means everyone that can get it, will get it.
To be honest, I think Vital Strike was meant to help this issue, but failed. If it gave a flat 1d6 damage bonus per 3 BAB the character had on a standard attack, it would be way, way better and go a long way to fixing this problem.
Yeah another auto scaling feat would be great. Even if it only scaled for fighters.
[Cool named feat]
Req: BAB 9, whirlwind attack (and its pre reqs),int 13, dex 13
you can move 10 feet and full attack
Special: at fighter level 12, 15, and 18 you can move an additional 5 feet
-5 or 1/2 BAB are CRAZY levels of penalty that make the option a non-starter.
-4 is the highest I was willing to consider, and even that's pretty bad. -2 or -3 are actually reasonable.
According to the designing monsters chart, a typical CR 15 monster has an AC 30.
My 15th level fighter swings at +34/34/29/24 with no buffs other than his free action boots of speed and his daylong greater magic weapon, and given that we have a bard in the party +40 is par for the course in an actual fight. This suggests that a -5 would not likely ruin my day, since that would result in a 35/35/30/25... pretty good overall. Or with Power Attack, 30/30/25/20. Power attack has a tradeoff, which is all well and good, but you're still likely landing 3 of 4 attacks even on a round where you move.
Of course, while my fighter has many problems, attack bonus is very rarely one of them.
YMMV, however. What do your numbers look like?
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Better is allowing the Fighter to get Pounce as a feat. Make it say available @ F11, with some other feat as a pre-req. Other choice would be giving Fighter the Vital Strike chain for free. It’s kinda “meh” anyway. But for free? Darn right.Problem is that this must be available to other Martial classes, or they get left out, and then it becomes a 'must have' feat for every martial - and every monster.Why is it a problem?
Barbarians get Pounce with their rage so why can't fighter's get it as a fighter only feat?
Because that gimps the ranger, monk, paladin, cavelier etc. by comparison.
Therefore it's a general feat. That means everyone that can get it, will get it.
To be honest, I think Vital Strike was meant to help this issue, but failed. If it gave a flat 1d6 damage bonus per 3 BAB the character had on a standard attack, it would be way, way better and go a long way to fixing this problem.
There is a feat chain that allows anybody to move plus full attack. It is not pounce, so you are still allowed to move through friendlies, turn corners, etc. It is PFS legal.
There are two feat prereqs and a 14 point skill prereq.
Or you could grab it with a single level dip into monk.
And yet the barbarian isn't gimping those classes with pounce and somehow the fighter will?
Because it's not a single feature but a chain of options for the barbarian, who can already deal frightening damage on a charge-and-hit. The barbarian is already overshadowing the other full-BAB classes as it is, add a fighter pounce and the ranger becomes just a scout...the paladin can probably just about hold his own, but he'd be a second tier fighter at that point.
Also, the mobile archetype of the fighter gets a weakened version already.
I have to agree that it should be a semi-pounce, or a change in the system itself (half a full attack on a standard action).
Give the fighter pounce and the cavalier doesn't care. He has lance charges that are better. The paladin can do the same thing, though it's not mandatory. The paladin is already on the high side of the martials and can stand missing out on a buff. The ranger can use a bow or run a Treeantmonk switch hitter build and use a bow when at range and a greatsword or falchion for melee. It means abandoning two weapon fighting rangers to the dustbin of history, but the iconic ranger builds that predate D&D are still valid. TWF is already sucker bait, making it viable for the fighter only improves the situation.
Rangers would fall behind too much. And they need the mobility just as bad as any other martial.
I like the idea of everyone getting some kind of limited full attack as a standard action, and Fighters getting having access to Pounce. This way, every martial can move and still be relevant, but Fighters would still do it much better.
I'd like to point out that in 3.0 martials were horrible class-wise but functioned much better system-wise. The reason was because of haste and this was the original haste in the version where the system (d20 D&D) was being playtested. It was single target but was more impressive for martials.
Old haste gave you an extra partial action each turn (today this would be translated as "one extra standard or move action" each turn). This meant that it gave martials 1 extra attack in the same round they were making a full-attack OR move up to twice their speed (haste doubled your movement speed) as a move and then full-attack when they arrived at their destination OR some other combination of things (including drawing weapons, drinking potions, whatever).
Naturally, boots of speed made this as readily available to high level fighters as it is today, and it was still a popular spell for casters to take to cast on their main tanks (today it's still the most popular spell but for slightly different reasons, and you want quantity over quality when choosing your targets).
When 3.5 was in the works they released that they were changing haste to the way we know it now. The reason they gave for this on the WotC messageboards/website was that the 3.0 haste was letting casters cast an extra spell per round and that wasn't kosher and made casters too strong. Then in 3.5 they released metamagic rods (which aren't present in 3.0 core) effectively giving casters their beefed up casting back to them while leaving martials in the cold (suddenly we have rods of extend, empower, maximize, and quicken), and they nerfed blasting (in 3.0 an empowered maximized 10d6 fireball deals 90 damage).
They could have simply made it an extra move action or an extra attack and let the martials have their toys. But they didn't. And naturally, martials have been ailing ever since. So believe it or not, the idea of moving + attacking with a full attack each round at higher levels isn't even a new concept. It's an OLD concept. All it took was a 3rd level spell buff that was available on demand via boots of speed.
Give the fighter pounce and the cavalier doesn't care. He has lance charges that are better. The paladin can do the same thing, though it's not mandatory. The paladin is already on the high side of the martials and can stand missing out on a buff. The ranger can use a bow or run a Treeantmonk switch hitter build and use a bow when at range and a greatsword or falchion for melee. It means abandoning two weapon fighting rangers to the dustbin of history, but the iconic ranger builds that predate D&D are still valid. TWF is already sucker bait, making it viable for the fighter only improves the situation.Rangers would fall behind too much. And they need the mobility just as bad as any other martial.
I like the idea of everyone getting some kind of limited full attack as a standard action, and Fighters getting having access to Pounce. This way, every martial can move and still be relevant, but Fighters would still do it much better.
I agree here - although I will add that the class it would REALLY make a difference to is the monk.
Maybe allow the 'every other attack' option as a standard action, and allow the fighter & monk to take a full attack option as a feat?
Give the fighter pounce and the cavalier doesn't care. He has lance charges that are better. The paladin can do the same thing, though it's not mandatory. The paladin is already on the high side of the martials and can stand missing out on a buff. The ranger can use a bow or run a Treeantmonk switch hitter build and use a bow when at range and a greatsword or falchion for melee. It means abandoning two weapon fighting rangers to the dustbin of history, but the iconic ranger builds that predate D&D are still valid. TWF is already sucker bait, making it viable for the fighter only improves the situation.Rangers would fall behind too much. And they need the mobility just as bad as any other martial.
I like the idea of everyone getting some kind of limited full attack as a standard action, and Fighters getting having access to Pounce. This way, every martial can move and still be relevant, but Fighters would still do it much better.
I agree here - although I will add that the class it would REALLY make a difference to is the monk.
Maybe allow the 'every other attack' option as a standard action, and allow the fighter & monk to take a full attack option as a feat?
Well, since we'd be already making big changes to the system, might as well give monks full BAB too. They'd benefit from the "move + multiple attacks" combo just as much as TWF Rangers, if not more, thanks to their high movement speed. Not a bad deal.
We could make it even better by allowing Monks to spend 1 Ki point for Pounce or something like that. Better than average mobility in combat, but not as good as Fighters which is okay for me, since Fighters should really excel in mundane fighting.Another thing that bothers me is how AC stays static. I mean, you can get better armor and all, but aside from Monks, no character learns how to better defend themselves. A 20th level Fighter with no armor has the same AC he had at 1st level (save for the increase in attribute). Apparently warriors don't learn how to parry and evade attacks, despite the fact that they spent all their career fighting all sorts of creatures... -.-'
I suppose defence-wise, characters are assumed to get enough from WBL that they do not need to defend themselves. I agree, it's a flaw of the system, but then the whole AC system is pretty weird.
I'd like to point out that in 3.0 martials were horrible class-wise but functioned much better system-wise. The reason was because of haste and this was the original haste in the version where the system (d20 D&D) was being playtested. It was single target but was more impressive for martials.
Naturally, boots of speed made this as readily available to high level fighters as it is today, and it was still a popular spell for casters to take to cast on their main tanks (today it's still the most popular spell but for slightly different reasons, and you want quantity over quality when choosing your targets)..
Except that casters weren't casting it on the Tanks. They cast it on themselves, then cast doubles spells the rest of the encounter. Then went back to town to rest. True, Fighters did want Boots of Speed, however.
To fix this, they should have had Haste simply allow an extra Move action per round, and indeed make it "mass' like it is today. Make it 4th level, however.
Another thing that bothers me is how AC stays static. I mean, you can get better armor and all, but aside from Monks, no character learns how to better defend themselves. A 20th level Fighter with no armor has the same AC he had at 1st level (save for the increase in attribute). Apparently warriors don't learn how to parry and evade attacks, despite the fact that they spent all their career fighting all sorts of creatures... -.-'
They most certainly do. Fighters get extra HP, lots of them. If you go back to the origins, (and later to 4th) Gygax explained that up until you were half HP down, HP represented getting tired for parrying and such. It wasn't until you had only half your HP that you actually had wounds that bled.
HP and AC are an abstraction. I have played in other game systems where they weren't. In such games, you have to have a calculator at all times, and one decent combat took four hours.
I suppose defence-wise, characters are assumed to get enough from WBL that they do not need to defend themselves. I agree, it's a flaw of the system, but then the whole AC system is pretty weird.
It's a bit odd, but I suppose it's easier than calculating % damage, like most games.
I had this idea of AC scaling based on BAB, complemented by the removal of Amulets of Natural Armor and a 50% increase to the price of Rings of Protection, so AC doesn't get insanely high.
The math was AC Bonus = (BAB+1)/3.
So starting at 2nd level, Fighters would get a +1 and end up with a +7 at 20th level (Slightly more than a AoNA). Clerics would get the bonus starting at 3rd level, and end up with a +5, and wizards would start getting their bonus at 4th level and end up with a +3.
Another idea was turning the numerical bonuses to armor and weapons into a mundane quality, not a magical enhancement, but I'm not sure how that'd affect the game.
There was a system in Unearthed Arcana for that, for when you didn't use armour. It was OK, kind of.
Class Defense Bonus.
It is actually a okay system. Though making it Half-B.A.B. works better as far as I can tell.
Many systems in low magic use scaling defenses bonuses. I'm guessing the most popular of those was likely Star Wars.
Usually you get a good bonus if you don't wear armor, and a smaller bonus if you do. Melee classes got their bonuses even in heavy armor.
==Aelryinth
Class Defense Bonus.
It is actually a okay system. Though making it Half-B.A.B. works better as far as I can tell.
I considered that, but AC would be too high. Even wizards would eventually get a +5. Fighters would get a +10.
My idea was to reduce the need for AC boosters, allowing Martials to save their money and buy cool stuff instead of numerical bonuses, but I didn't want to make AC boosters completelly unnecessary.
I like the idea of getting magic items that protect you from danger, I just wish I didn't need 2~3 of them plus magic armor to have a competitive AC.
It's a bit sad that magic enhancement bonuses are so essential for a character to succeed that they became little more than pointless math at this point...
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All I know is that since they removed Critical Hit immunity from a host of monsters the rogue has become way more powerful. Oozes, Elementals and swarms are now the only challenge to flanking Rogues with HiPS.
A rogue with advanced evasion laughs at most area of effect spell casters, and ranged rogues with a very cheap pair of magical glasses snipe mobs from 200 feet for precision damage... I mean, honestly, spell casters are way way way powerful in that they can hit everything in an area with 10-20d6 at once (except the rogues who take half or none of that).
Recently at a PFS game, with the template character rogue my son tumbled and set up four or five flanking manuevers (lvl 7 rogue with a +20 acrobatics... wow!). All the "usual" PFS players kept telling him "don't try to tumble past, you will never manage it." The Sea Hag made him roll 4x. But the other option was to sit there and die instead. Once he got past her, the Knight did it's 5 step/full round attack and he did a full round flanking "sneak attack" (2x basically). I mean, honestly, it was impressive for a 7th level rogue IMHO.
Meanwhile, I played the spellcaster, who came in handy ONCE (well his magic anyway) in the entire adventure (when I DDoored folks past a wall of flame). If I had let loose with Fireball or anything else that would have ended the combat I would have either hit my friends or allies we were trying to rescue. So basically, made entirely useless simply due to bad positioning. The exact same complaint that people have against Rogues and other martials.
Why attack the rogues reflex? Much easier just to throw a fort save at him. Casters have many options for many situations. Fireball is pretty weak really, you could hit with enervation against touch, you could create pit and throw most foes into a deep dark hole(possibly filled with acid or spikes), you could throw out a flaming sphere you can move around after empowering it with an alchemist fire to set foes on fire, you could summon an army of monsters, you could haste... All of these options have a smaller area than fireball and can have greater effect.
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Well, the real problem is you have to see them first. A 10+ level rogue should be taking 10 continuously on stealth. IMHO. Can't cast on a person you can't see. AOE spells are all that are left.
Ps. I did mention that mages are way way way versatile and powerful, right? I was just pointing out that in some cases they become useless (like when you are in a PFS GOOD campaign and the "bad guys" have captives you fear harming with area of effect (AOE) spells).
UMD also allows Rogues the same versatility as mages, just at a higher gold cost. I can get something enchanted 1/day for CL*SL*360 gold. 7th level spells for 22k basically. Some night when I am bored I will do the math per level for gold cost versus being an actual spell caster. :)
Obviously, Rogues are too powerful and Wizards suck.
I think they should nerf Rogues to 1/2 BAB, boost the number of spells per day of wizards and give them better spells too.
Honestly... I thought about replying to maouse's posts, but I don't even know where to start...
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Obviously, Rogues are too powerful and Wizards suck.
I think they should nerf Rogues to 1/2 BAB, boost the number of spells per day of wizards and give them better spells too.
Honestly... I thought about replying to maouse's posts, but I don't even know where to start...
start in the middle where I say "spell casters are way way way powerful"... then redact your indignant tone and retry?
start in the middle where I say "spell casters are way way way powerful"... then redact your indignant tone and retry?Obviously, Rogues are too powerful and Wizards suck.
I think they should nerf Rogues to 1/2 BAB, boost the number of spells per day of wizards and give them better spells too.
Honestly... I thought about replying to maouse's posts, but I don't even know where to start...
Or you can be like me and post a small list of spells that you can cast that are useful in that situation and won't hit your allies. Slow/Haste is powerful.
start in the middle where I say "spell casters are way way way powerful"... then redact your indignant tone and retry?Obviously, Rogues are too powerful and Wizards suck.
I think they should nerf Rogues to 1/2 BAB, boost the number of spells per day of wizards and give them better spells too.
Honestly... I thought about replying to maouse's posts, but I don't even know where to start...
Nah... I'm cool...
EDIT: BTW, you ninja'd me with that particular post (by 6min... I had to post twice, because the forum system apparently hates me), so that one doesn't count! ^^The problem with basing AC on BAB is that it's the evasive classes like rogues that should have the highest unarmored AC, not the hulking heavy armor classes like paladins and cavaliers.
Well, monks do have high touch AC... Rogues too, usually... As they tend to boost Dex and use armor with high max-Dex-bonus-to-AC.
Paladins most often have low touch AC, as they favor Cha over Dex most of the time. Barbarians with Ghost Rager have a pretty good touch AC, but only against spells...Now that I think about it, other than Monks, is there any class that has a touch AC considerably higher than most others? I don't think we have many class features that boost touch AC.
Now that I think about it, other than Monks, is there any class that has a touch AC considerably higher than most others?
Ghost rager Barbarians have a sky high one thanks to superstitious bonus being added to it. Human bonus + courageous waepon makes that amazing.
Wizards/sorcs have a higher one becuase they have mage armor +dex. Rogues have a high dex, rangers sometimes do, but beyond that monks are really the only ones who get this amazing forcefield against touch attacks. So... Wizards, monks, and barbarians with a specific rage power have the highest I guess?
Now that I think about it, other than Monks, is there any class that has a touch AC considerably higher than most others?Ghost rager Barbarians have a sky high one thanks to superstitious bonus being added to it. Human bonus + courageous waepon makes that amazing.
Wizards/sorcs have a higher one becuase they have mage armor +dex. Rogues have a high dex, rangers sometimes do, but beyond that monks are really the only ones who get this amazing forcefield against touch attacks. So... Wizards, monks, and barbarians with a specific rage power have the highest I guess?
I suppose we could add Gunslingers to the list... But like most of other classes, the touch AC comes mostly from high Dex score...
I can't remember many class features that boost touch AC. Only Ghost Ragers (only against magic, but that's like 90% of all touch attacks anyway), Monks' Wisdom bonus to AC/CMD and spell casting because... well, it's spell-casting.
Inquisitors have AC-boosting Judgements and Bards have Inspire Heroics, but only at 15th level, IIRC.
Also, I think Mage Armor doesn't affect Touch AC.
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Let's compare a lvl 17+ mage and someone who just decided to buy a device (and a very casual GM who allowed it) to simulate being a spell caster.
CL * SL * 1800 / 5/uses per day. Let's, for fun, say they want to cast an average of one 9th level the spell a day, and we are talking about the 24 9th level spells. So we put in a 1/24 days use limit on the device. That means the cost is:
CL * SL * 15, and level 17 is required for level 9 mage spells... so for each effect on the item he spends 9*17*15, with 24 spells = 55080 gp.
And so we have any joe schmo at level 10 who can afford this, and at level 8 can afford to make it themselves. While the GM is sleeping of course. Contrast that to "buying" a martials' ability to deal damage and change the world?
(and also note that while the delay rate on each individual spell is 24 days, all the spells could be cast in the same day, perhaps making it more powerful than any known spellcaster on a single day. And yes, I do realize that any spellcaster could buy/make one of these too! and I also realize that when I say "one" of these, I mean a series of items which allow the spells to be cast, as one item skipping 24 spells would be a +120 mod on the craft DR)
And so we have any joe schmo at level 10 who can afford this, and at level 8 can afford to make it themselves. While the GM is sleeping of course. Contrast that to "buying" a matials' ability to deal damage and change the world?
He would also of course, after getting it past the DM, have to make the checks to use the thing, and just spent all of his gold on pretending he was a caster when the caster himself could afford it and quiet possibly use the thing more easily, because he's a caster... I don't know many GMs who trust their players with 10 wishes without expecting it to just blow up.
The thing is, the caster can do this too, but possibly easier and without giving up his weapon which the martial probably needed to hit stuff...
I mean, honestly, spell casters are way way way powerful in that they can hit everything in an area with 10-20d6 at once (except the rogues who take half or none of that).
... That's not why casters are powerful, that's, like, the least powerful thing they do.
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And so we have any joe schmo at level 10 who can afford this, and at level 8 can afford to make it themselves. While the GM is sleeping of course. Contrast that to "buying" a matials' ability to deal damage and change the world?He would also of course, after getting it past the DM, have to make the checks to use the thing, and just spent all of his gold on pretending he was a caster when the caster himself could afford it and quiet possibly use the thing more easily, because he's a caster... I don't know many GMs who trust their players with 10 wishes without expecting it to just blow up.
The thing is, the caster can do this too, but possibly easier and without giving up his weapon which the martial probably needed to hit stuff...
Command word activated only need know the command word. No UMD roll is needed unless you are activating blindly. I know of NO GMs that would allow players to have a wish every month (well, 24 days) for the rest of their lives... but the RAW are there to allow it pretty cheaply IMHO a 8th level character who only needs to roll 27 to craft a 9th level spell item is pretty cheap considering they would have: Master Craftsman (+2), 8 Ranks in Crafting (+8), the proper tools (+2 to +5), Class skill (+3), and stat modifier (+3 let's say). plus a trait or two if you want to add those = +21 (or more) to crafting. So they would only need to roll a 6 to make it, and it would only take 3 days to make each spell (or 1 1/2 days if you up the DC to 32 and require a 11+ roll). Adding in, of course, the material cost of the spells. (so Wish, for instance, would take 25,000 more GP, In any event, about 13-25 more days to craft)
Most GMs are not going to let you craft the thing in the first place.
How is 50k cheap!? "Don't worry guys, its only all my WBL." Its also still nothing a caster can't do, and thats a generous charisma for a martial who isn't a paladin and just blew up his gold on a magic item.
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Most GMs are not going to let you craft the thing in the first place.
How is 50k cheap!? "Don't worry guys, its only all my WBL." Its also still nothing a caster can't do, and thats a generous charisma for a martial who isn't a paladin and just blew up his gold on a magic item.
50k is cheap for a level 17 wizard's entire 9th level spell list. I was pointing out that its the WBL of a 10th level character. For 17th level spells! So yeh, THAT is how it is cheap!
Also, I kinda messed up the formula anyway. The cost would end up being 10x that (additional modifier of /5/50 for these items), OR 1/240 days (defeats the purpose). Which would mean that the entire 24 spell list would have to wait until a 15th level character crafter it, and would otherwise only be available to a 18th level martial by WBL. So I would end up saying "pick a few spells you want (like 3)" and then you are back at a level 10 WBL price.
50k is cheap for a level 17 wizard's entire 9th level spell list. I was pointing out that its the WBL of a 10th level character. For 17th level spells! So yeh, THAT is how it is cheap!Most GMs are not going to let you craft the thing in the first place.
How is 50k cheap!? "Don't worry guys, its only all my WBL." Its also still nothing a caster can't do, and thats a generous charisma for a martial who isn't a paladin and just blew up his gold on a magic item.
Provided you find a GM who lets you do this, you roll all your UMD checks well, and you weren't interested in doing anything else? sure... why not. Just remember anyone can do it, including the casters.
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Provided you find a GM who lets you do this, you roll all your UMD checks well, and you weren't interested in doing anything else? sure... why not. Just remember anyone can do it, including the casters.50k is cheap for a level 17 wizard's entire 9th level spell list. I was pointing out that its the WBL of a 10th level character. For 17th level spells! So yeh, THAT is how it is cheap!Most GMs are not going to let you craft the thing in the first place.
How is 50k cheap!? "Don't worry guys, its only all my WBL." Its also still nothing a caster can't do, and thats a generous charisma for a martial who isn't a paladin and just blew up his gold on a magic item.
Again, you don't need UMD if you know the command word on a command word activation device.... But otherwise, yep, even the casters can get spells before their level by spending gold. That is part of the discussion as to why casters aren't all that and a bag of chips too - anyone can copy their powers with a little coin. I am not saying they are not way way way powerful, they are. But anyone with coin and a loose GM can be as well.
One of the most destructive items in the game IMHO is the Lyre of Building... Imagine a CG character using it to subvert a city's ruler by entrenching the poorer district, walling it up and putting a moat around it so the LE overlord can't get to them... I don't know why I mention this, other than it is an example of magical force whooping manual labor's butt. I agree magic is very very powerful. (but then, almost anyone can use a Lyre of Building, see my point?)
Again, you don't need UMD if you know the command word on a command word activation device.... But otherwise, yep, even the casters can get spells before their level by spending gold. That is part of the discussion as to why casters aren't all that and a bag of chips too - anyone can copy their powers with a little coin. I am not saying they are not way way way powerful, they are. But anyone with coin and a loose GM can be as well.
Also then all your wealth is gone... Meanwhile the caster wakes up and gets all his spells back everyday. Not all GMs reimburse that, and if they do its not always quick.
Most GMs are not going to let you craft the thing in the first place.
How is 50k cheap!? "Don't worry guys, its only all my WBL." Its also still nothing a caster can't do, and thats a generous charisma for a martial who isn't a paladin and just blew up his gold on a magic item.
50k is cheap for a level 17 wizard's entire 9th level spell list. I was pointing out that its the WBL of a 10th level character. For 17th level spells! So yeh, THAT is how it is cheap!
Also, I kinda messed up the formula anyway. The cost would end up being 10x that (additional modifier of /5/50 for these items), OR 1/240 days (defeats the purpose). Which would mean that the entire 24 spell list would have to wait until a 15th level character crafter it, and would otherwise only be available to a 18th level martial by WBL. So I would end up saying "pick a few spells you want (like 3)" and then you are back at a level 10 WBL price.
I have no clue what you're babbling about when it comes to item creation here. Firstly, for every spell you decide to add to that item, you have to add the cost of any components x100 prior to dividing. That means gate, shapechange, and wish are adding about 3,500,000 gp to the base price of the item. The rest of the item would have each spell priced similar to a staff (one item with multiple effects drawing from the same pool of charges). Leading the item to cost like this:
1800 * 9 * 17 * 1 = 275,400 gp
1800 * 9 * 17 * .75 = 206,550 gp
18000 * 9 * 17 * .5 * 22 = 302,9400 gp
Add material component cost = 3,500,000 gp
Divide by 5 for 1 charge per day = 1,402,270 gp
So for 1 million, four hundred and two thousand, two hundred and seventy gold pieces, you could get a once per day command-word item that cast 1 of 24 different 9th level spells (assuming only gate and wish have material components involved, I'd have to check the others). And to create this item, you would need to make a caster level 32 Spellcraft check, +5 for every requirement that you must ignore (which is going to be around +120 to the DC unless you can provide 24 different 9th level spells each day of the creation).