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...Also he doesn't have class features beyond that was my point. Its boring.Smite evil is just numbers, if you look at it that way. Everything in the game is just numbers. The fighter gets weapon training and armour training. In what way is this more or less boring than favoured enemy, which is just numbers added to attacks, damage, and few skill checks?
You can reflavor and you decide the fluff. The fighter being a blank slate with few skillpoints or features beyond smacking things is not that special.That's like telling a graffiti artist that a blank wall is not anything special. It's not what it IS, it's what you can DO with it. Some classes are a huge picture that you can enjoy, others let you paint your own masterpiece.
I don't understand how it is I guess. Those +1s to damage aren't that amazing either. Raging barbarian at level 1 already has a bigger to hit. Urban barbarian gives up nothing for that rage. With a courageous weapon he too has big +1s, but with rage powers and possibly superstitious line to bolster his poor saves.Now that's more a balance question between the barbarian and the fighter. That said, level-on-level I've found the fighter keeps track with the barbarian on damage output pretty well, and he isn't spending resources to achieve it. He can generally also have a back-up plan for dealing with anything his favourite weapon doesn't fell, because he has the feats to pull it off.
How does he get more out of his armor anyway? He doesn't get +1s to AC. He gets the ability to move in it better. He pays less of a tax for full plate, but you get more AC if you have over 16 dex and wear a mithril breastplate. He gets enough feats he can grab feats that add to his AC or crane style, but that can be expensive even for the fighter....It's easy. Start with your fighter and his 14 dex. By 3rd level, he gets his first suit of plate armour for +9 AC. It normally
Sucks when magic items, a skill, and a trait that gives you access to that certain skill can take the place of a class ability of several classes.
Let's see the stat array of the pally with the high dex.
He doesn't need a high dex, Shallowsoul - the fighter only started with a 14. At high level all he needs is a 12 dexterity and a belt of physical perfection to get the most of that +4 permitted dexterity bonus.
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He doesn't need a high dex, Shallowsoul - the fighter only started with a 14. At high level all he needs is a 12 dexterity and a belt of physical perfection to get the most of that +4 permitted dexterity bonus.
Okay.
Take the price of a +4 Belt of Physical Perfect and add it to the price of a suit of +5 mithral full plate. That's a hell of a lot of money to spend on something a fighter gets for free.
They were talking about the fighter though shallowsoul... how he will get that to get the most out of his not mithril armor.
He doesn't need a high dex, Shallowsoul - the fighter only started with a 14. At high level all he needs is a 12 dexterity and a belt of physical perfection to get the most of that +4 permitted dexterity bonus.Okay.
Take the price of a +4 Belt of Physical Perfect and add it to the price of a suit of +5 mithral full plate. That's a hell of a lot of money to spend on something a fighter gets for free.
Wait, Fighters get a +4 to all physical stats for free? I didn't know that.
He doesn't need a high dex, Shallowsoul - the fighter only started with a 14. At high level all he needs is a 12 dexterity and a belt of physical perfection to get the most of that +4 permitted dexterity bonus.Okay.
Take the price of a +4 Belt of Physical Perfect and add it to the price of a suit of +5 mithral full plate. That's a hell of a lot of money to spend on something a fighter gets for free.
Shallow, are you reading things right?
Fighter's don't get an AC bonus as they level. They get an expansion of their Dex limit in armor.
They still need the Dex.
any high level melee is as likely to get a +6 Enhancer as a fighter is.
The fighter's benefit allows him to take normal Full Plate with a +1 Dex limit to a +5 Dex limit, or 20 Dex. Thus, if he starts with a 14, he can reach 20 Dex and max out his class ability with a +6 Dex booster.
Likewise, any character can buy Celestial Plate for 20k and get a +4 Dex limit boost, and thus reach 20 Dex and enjoy the full AC benefit. The price over normal plate is like 12k. So, 12k allows anyone benefits identical to the Fighter's class benefits.
And if either party makes the armor mithral, they can get their Dex all the way up to 24 Dex. This is a level you are generally only going to find with Inherent bonuses applied, or a Dex-focused character.
If the fighter is a Dex monkey, he can also buy celestial Mithral plate and take full advantage of up to a 32 Dex. This is basically the ONLY situation where some other class cannot get the same advantage of Dex to AC that the fighter gets...or they can, but they'd have to downgrade to Mail instead of Plate.
==Aelryinth
Mithril itself is actually really cheap isn't it?
1k, 4k and 9k per light/med/heavy armor, so yeah. But it's only +2 to dex limit...although it hits the other armor benefit fighters get, the one allowing full movement, too.
==Aelryinth
He doesn't need a high dex, Shallowsoul - the fighter only started with a 14. At high level all he needs is a 12 dexterity and a belt of physical perfection to get the most of that +4 permitted dexterity bonus.Okay.
Take the price of a +4 Belt of Physical Perfect and add it to the price of a suit of +5 mithral full plate. That's a hell of a lot of money to spend on something a fighter gets for free.
Hang on, the fighter is getting a +6 belt of physical perfection to make his thing work, and THAT'S not cheap, either!
All the paladin pays over and above what the fighter pays is to make the armour mithral, or celestial (and this at a level where WBL is at six-figures). Now a high dex fighter in that armour could do even better, but his strength will likely suffer for it if her does.
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He doesn't need a high dex, Shallowsoul - the fighter only started with a 14. At high level all he needs is a 12 dexterity and a belt of physical perfection to get the most of that +4 permitted dexterity bonus.Okay.
Take the price of a +4 Belt of Physical Perfect and add it to the price of a suit of +5 mithral full plate. That's a hell of a lot of money to spend on something a fighter gets for free.
Hang on, the fighter is getting a +6 belt of physical perfection to make his thing work, and THAT'S not cheap, either!
All the paladin pays over and above what the fighter pays is to make the armour mithral, or celestial (and this at a level where WBL is at six-figures). Now a high dex fighter in that armour could do even better, but his strength will likely suffer for it if her does.
A fighter doesn't need a belt of physical perfection. He can get the one for strength and be just fine. Dex or Con is a fighter's second best stat so depending on what race he chooses, he can leave his con around a 12 and up his dex using his level stat mod and use his magic item to beef his strength. He also will get full movement in heavy armor so if he doesn't want to bother with mithral he's still grand. In the end, he would probably be better off going with +5 mithral breastplate and going for a 20 or 22 dex.
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1k, 4k and 9k per light/med/heavy armor, so yeah. But it's only +2 to dex limit...although it hits the other armor benefit fighters get, the one allowing full movement, too.
==Aelryinth
The bottom line is you have to spend money to get what the fighter gets for free so the advantage still goes to the fighter.
Nobody bothered to respond to my second part about spellcasters.
So... how exactly is he improving a Dex score of 14 to 20 without any magic? You can't do that with just level bumps.
Also a high level fighter with only 12 Con sounds like a dead fighter to me. xD
You don't need it, but your certainly going to want it. Stat boost are always nifty as far as I know.
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So... how exactly is he improving a Dex score of 14 to 20 without any magic? You can't do that with just level bumps.
Also a high level fighter with only 12 Con sounds like a dead fighter to me. xD
Seriously?
20 point buy.
Drop Cha to 7
Give Str and Dex each a 16 then put a 12 in Wis and Con. Go human and put your +2 in dex. Add two from your level to make your dex a 20.
Its not hard really.
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So... how exactly is he improving a Dex score of 14 to 20 without any magic? You can't do that with just level bumps.
Also a high level fighter with only 12 Con sounds like a dead fighter to me. xD
Try actually playing a fighter or two and you will see that a 12 con can work just fine. Put all your favored class bonus in HP and you effectively have a 14 with regards to Hp.
All I have to do is raise it at the cost of my other stats? Awesome! and here I thought I'd have to give something up.
...weren't we just talking about a Str focused fighter? Not a finesse warrior or archer?
Like, when someone says "fighter" or "paladin" or "martial" they don't mean "every conceivable use for that class that might favor you in a debate", they mean "the common use for that class". You can't just change the terms of the discussion because you don't feel like it's going your way, dude.
Also, sidebar, the default point buy is 15. A human fighter with 7 Cha and 16+2 Dex has 9 points for the rest of their stats. Which... isn't great, to say the least.
All I have to do is raise it at the cost of my other stats? Awesome! and here I thought I'd have to give something up.I hope for your sske you're taking the piss.
Erm... pardon? I don't know what that means. I thought you were infering it was easy and wasn't giving something up. I was using some sarcasm as a responce.
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...weren't we just talking about a Str focused fighter? Not a finesse warrior or archer?
Like, when someone says "fighter" or "paladin" or "martial" they don't mean "every conceivable use for that class that might favor you in a debate", they mean "the common use for that class". You can't just change the terms of the discussion because you don't feel like it's going your way, dude.
Also, sidebar, the default point buy is 15. A human fighter with 7 Cha and 16+2 Dex has 9 points for the rest of their stats. Which... isn't great, to say the least.
Put your other level mod boosts in strength and focus on a strength based item and you have a high str and hi dex fighter who would be a fantastic switch hitter.
Try actually playing a fighter or two and you will see that a 12 con can work just fine. Put all your favored class bonus in HP and you effectively have a 14 with regards to Hp.
For a while. However by higher levels you are going to want to have much more than a 12 Constitution. You can get another +11 from items and inherent modifiers which brings you up to 23 (a +6 Constitution), but you might wanna dip at least one point in there to get a +7 modifier. Mid to high levels are rough when enemies and challenges aren't sandbagging you. The +7 will net you +140 HP. Favored class is another +20 if you're not wanting it for skills. Count your base HP of 114 and your Fighter would have only 274 Hp at 20th level. I'd at least recommend getting Toughness to bring you up to 294 HP since fighting is your job and you don't want to be fragile about it.
Put your other level mod boosts in strength and focus on a strength based item and you have a high str and hi dex fighter who would be a fantastic switch hitter....weren't we just talking about a Str focused fighter? Not a finesse warrior or archer?
Like, when someone says "fighter" or "paladin" or "martial" they don't mean "every conceivable use for that class that might favor you in a debate", they mean "the common use for that class". You can't just change the terms of the discussion because you don't feel like it's going your way, dude.
Also, sidebar, the default point buy is 15. A human fighter with 7 Cha and 16+2 Dex has 9 points for the rest of their stats. Which... isn't great, to say the least.
Fighters are more heavily rewarded for spreading their statistics out. The minor AC boost you can get long term isn't exactly worth dumping so much else. Speccing Dex super-prime on a Fighter is as bad an idea as it is for everyone else. Especially since other classes can hit up to a +9 or better max Dexterity allowance.
A more attractive long-term build might look like this (15 point buy): 14, 14, 15, 10, 12, 7. By 20th level you should be able to expect 25, 25, 26, 21, 23, 18 after enhancement/inherents. Then you have 5 level up increases to account for. +2 Str, +2 Dex, and +1 Wisdom seems like a pretty solid idea since it'll bring you to Str +8, Dex +8, Con +8, Int +5, Wis +7, and Cha +4; which will greatly improve your survivability while using Weapon Training to make up for the lack of Strength in your to-hit and to-damage areas.
Your net result is +8 Fortitude and 314 HP counting favored class and toughness (the -28 threshold doesn't hurt either), +8 Initiative, AC, and Reflex from Dexterity, a +8 to hit and +12 to damage with a 2 handed melee and +8 to damage with a good bow, thanks to your Strength. I recommended the Wisdom bump because +7 to your Will saves is probably going to help.
By pushing an 18 at 1st level before racial modifiers you're really killing your Fighter in other areas and not really having much to show for it at low levels because armor training doesn't start out maxed, so for many, many levels your +5 base Dexterity is rather meaningless (when your armor's max dex is +1, then +1 from armor training, you're still not getting your money's worth).
I would be concerned if one of my players presented such a build and would try to warn them of the dangers of such a build before we began play since I want players to be able to enjoy their characters throughout our journey through 20th level and perhaps beyond.
Armored kilt is banned in most games I know actually. Its a little out of date and funky. For the other classes having more than 16 dex makes the Mithril breastplate the better option(ignoring celestial's existance). I don't think its that hard to get over 16 unless you dumped dex.
1k, 4k and 9k per light/med/heavy armor, so yeah. But it's only +2 to dex limit...although it hits the other armor benefit fighters get, the one allowing full movement, too.
==Aelryinth
Mirhil full plate is still medium armor, so it does not allow full movement for paladins nor cavalier.
mithral breastplate is consiered light armor, but if you want to add an armored kilt it beomes medium armor. So rangers and barbarian have to choose the extra movement of the +1 to AC, not both. fighter do not have that restriction.
Barbarians move at a speed of 30 ft. in medium armor anyway, so Barbarians could care less. At 4th level and beyond Rangers can grant themselves a speed of 30 ft. in medium armor for hours. Both can simply doff the kilt to move at a speed of 40 ft. if needed.
and the paladin might just summon his horse to do the moving for him!
Heh.
And really, the prime measure of speed is in combat, which is often accentuated with haste, and there is no effective move penalty at that point.
==Aelryinth
1k, 4k and 9k per light/med/heavy armor, so yeah. But it's only +2 to dex limit...although it hits the other armor benefit fighters get, the one allowing full movement, too.
==Aelryinth
The bottom line is you have to spend money to get what the fighter gets for free so the advantage still goes to the fighter.
Nobody bothered to respond to my second part about spellcasters.
No, Shallow.
Everyone gets mithral. Everyone. Thus, its a sunk cost of the game, not something 'extra' or special.
And the bottom line is that you can spend 9k to get ALL of a Fighter's armor training benefits, be just as well off, and not have wasted time being in the fighter class, you got 5 other class abilities of your own!
Seriously, if your fighter could spend 9k and get DR X/- as a class ability, improving by +1 every time you got armor training and your first armor mastery, would you consider that fair? Or spend 4k and get trap sense with your bravery? or spend 1k and get evasion with your armor mastery?
Because that's what the game did. It put a 9k value on the entire line of armor training. Which SUCKS.
===Aelryinth
Well... Mithril's been here since 3.0 hasn't it? Isn't that a problem with armor training itself really?
Well, everyone who wears armor. I don't think I've ever seen adamantine at a table unless it was a loot item and the wearer had no dex score to pump. The higher dex limit and move is just more valuable.
And yes, it's a problem with armor training/mastery.
Guess what? As a fighter, at level 7, you get a benefit that all dwarves receive at level ONE!
Doesn't that make you just feel awesome?
==Aelryinth
Everyone gets mithral. Everyone. Thus, its a sunk cost of the game, not something 'extra' or special.We do?
I do. It looks shiney. You know how some of us adventurers are with shiney things...
Actually I bought my last wizard a mithril spiked shield and I can't even remember why. It sounded cool at the time I guess, but thats probably a personal problem.
I believe a mithral buckler is 0% spell failure, yes?
==Aelryinth
Hey, where did the OP go?
Well the question was about martial-caster disparity and that had a lot of answers really quickly. The current question is about fighters or something... I guess?
I believe a mithral buckler is 0% spell failure, yes?
Any sort of light shield is. Spikes just make it cooler, before battle you can just cast shield for most of the enhance bonus though. Mage armor hands your shirt.
{stuff}
You REALLY didn't read or get the point of the original surmise, did you? The point was to demonstrate that a fighter who DOESN'T sacrifice anything to get a super-high dex can still get a good AC boost out of armour training for a better AC than just about anyone.
This was then countered that the paladin in Mithral or celestial armour would not be far behind - which is true, he wouldn't. He gets the equivelant of armour training 2 for 9Kgp.
Then you step in and declare the fighter would have super-dexterity anyway....when the point was that he could put those points elsewhere, into con or strength or both, and STILL get the most out of armour training.
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Well, everyone who wears armor. I don't think I've ever seen adamantine at a table unless it was a loot item and the wearer had no dex score to pump. The higher dex limit and move is just more valuable.
And yes, it's a problem with armor training/mastery.
Guess what? As a fighter, at level 7, you get a benefit that all dwarves receive at level ONE!
Doesn't that make you just feel awesome?
==Aelryinth
Dwarves get a 30' move speed and no dexterity penalty in admantine full plate armor?
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{stuff}You REALLY didn't read or get the point of the original surmise, did you? The point was to demonstrate that a fighter who DOESN'T sacrifice anything to get a super-high dex can still get a good AC boost out of armour training for a better AC than just about anyone.
This was then countered that the paladin in Mithral or celestial armour would not be far behind - which is true, he wouldn't. He gets the equivelant of armour training 2 for 9Kgp.
Then you step in and declare the fighter would have super-dexterity anyway....when the point was that he could put those points elsewhere, into con or strength or both, and STILL get the most out of armour training.
Actually what I stated was very relevant. Saying that something can just be applied elsewhere is such a cheap ass cop out that it isn't even funny. Well that 9k you spend on that mithral could be used somewhere else, or does this only apply to fighter related bashing?
The fact of the matter is the other classes would have to spend money where it could be spent elsewhere on something the fighter gets for free so the argument holds no water.
Are we seriously going to go round and round to the same old tune? There are just some of you that will not accept the usefulness of the fighter and will dismiss anything you can.
A simple trait that gives you UMD can enable and class to benefit from a bit of spell casting but that seems to be ignored.
Stacking UMD is not nearly as powerful as Fullcasting. Is that a real arguement?
Edit: Next thing you know potions are just as viable as lay on hands or something.
Dwarves get a 30' move speed and no dexterity penalty in admantine full plate armor?Well, everyone who wears armor. I don't think I've ever seen adamantine at a table unless it was a loot item and the wearer had no dex score to pump. The higher dex limit and move is just more valuable.
And yes, it's a problem with armor training/mastery.
Guess what? As a fighter, at level 7, you get a benefit that all dwarves receive at level ONE!
Doesn't that make you just feel awesome?
==Aelryinth
Halfling and gnome fighters get a 30' move in adamantine armor? When did that happen? (browses rules) Don't see that anywhere...
Dwarves, however, aren't slowed down by ANY armor at level 0. Fighters, y'know, gotta wait until 3 and 7th to get that dwarven racial benefit.
==Aelryinth
{stuff}You REALLY didn't read or get the point of the original surmise, did you? The point was to demonstrate that a fighter who DOESN'T sacrifice anything to get a super-high dex can still get a good AC boost out of armour training for a better AC than just about anyone.
This was then countered that the paladin in Mithral or celestial armour would not be far behind - which is true, he wouldn't. He gets the equivelant of armour training 2 for 9Kgp.
Then you step in and declare the fighter would have super-dexterity anyway....when the point was that he could put those points elsewhere, into con or strength or both, and STILL get the most out of armour training.
Actually what I stated was very relevant. Saying that something can just be applied elsewhere is such a cheap ass cop out that it isn't even funny. Well that 9k you spend on that mithral could be used somewhere else, or does this only apply to fighter related bashing?
The fact of the matter is the other classes would have to spend money where it could be spent elsewhere on something the fighter gets for free so the argument holds no water.
Are we seriously going to go round and round to the same old tune? There are just some of you that will not accept the usefulness of the fighter and will dismiss anything you can.
A simple trait that gives you UMD can enable and class to benefit from a bit of spell casting but that seems to be ignored.
At the level the 4 or 9k to mithral becomes spent, it's too small potatoes to be spent on anything worthwhile. Meanwhile, the Fighter is wondering why he couldn't get Superstitious, Strength Surge, Guarded Stance, and Spell Cleaving instead of a +4 bonus anyone else can get.
==Aelryinth
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I've seen a lot of people asking about high level fighter play. I bring you Marcus Muri, Fighter 18. He was in my Kingmaker campaign, and he utterly destroyed anything he could physically accost. He could kill any boss by RAW in one full attack action at any level, even at higher ones. Buuuuut, he existed at the graces of the wizard and cleric, who were on hand to make sure he could reach stuff, and not be annihilated when reflex and will saves became a thing.
Basically, I found that what held true on low levels also hold true in coarse forms on high levels: The fighter kills everything it gets to full attack, most stuff needs 15-20 to hit him, he has staying power but NO versatility.