This question is for the GMs out there. I am running a special, one-time adventure with nine PCs taking part! The most I have ever run at one time is seven (and that was in 2nd Edition D&D). Has anyone out there regularly run adventures with that many characters, and if so, how did you do it? Specifically, since challenge ratings are usually based on four PCs, how did you scale something with more than twice the PCs? Also, did you tend to build your encounters with a bunch of minion fodder to whittle down the party, or do you just beef up one or two baddies in each encounter?
I have used the fantastic adaptions of the Kingmaker AP for a six player party, but it just seems that it will reach the law of diminishing returns at some point. I have a feeling that ramping up the encounter strength by 125% will not end well for the party, or my sanity.
Please give actual examples that have worked in this situation, not “Try <blank> and it should work.”
Thanks in advance!
-Strange Doc
Edit: By the way, it will be first level. I know that definitely makes a difference.
Edit, Edit: I already have the plot, I just need the mechanics.
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We have this magic ring that needs to be destroyed ...
Anyone out there? Beuler...?
I was in a game with 8 players, built from scratch by the GM. It didn't last long. Getting that many people together on the same day was extremely tough and the gameplay was, for the most part, slow-moving. Too many conflicting personalities, battles were difficult to balance, etc.
If at all possible, maybe you could split it into two parallel campaigns. Party A has 5 members, Party B has 4 members. Do the campaigns separately on different nights and, at some point, they come together, perhaps as allies, perhaps as adversaries.
I was in a game with 8 players, built from scratch by the GM. It didn't last long. Getting that many people together on the same day was extremely tough and the gameplay was, for the most part, slow-moving. Too many conflicting personalities, battles were difficult to balance, etc.
If at all possible, maybe you could split it into two parallel campaigns. Party A has 5 members, Party B has 4 members. Do the campaigns separately on different nights and, at some point, they come together, perhaps as allies, perhaps as adversaries.
This is my problem n00bxqb, several friends are coming in from out of town for a short time only. They wanted me to run for everyone at once, but your suggestion to run with two parties could work. Kind of a "capture the flag" type of scenario...
Does anyone out there at this time of night have relevant experiences running nine or more PCs?
I've been at a table with 13 players (and will never do so again). The DM at the time usually just had a few, very difficult foes, such as 2 dragons at once. It led to some very frustrating situations where people needed to roll very well to do anything at all. Every once in a while he ran an encounter that had hordes of level appropriate mooks with only a few, slightly tougher enemies. These ran much better (even if a round of combat took ages), and was one of the few games I ever got to cast circle of death to great effect. I believe that the DM explained for the well built encounters he simply built an encounter appropriate for 4 to 5 players and tripled the amount of everything, adding templates or increasing levels for only the enemies that it wouldn't make too much sense to have more than one of (such as a BBEG).
You could try a similiar tactic; build encounters for a party of 4 to 5 and merely double everything instead of trying to figure out APL, since you essentially have two parties on the map simaltaneously. At level 1 you shouldn't have to worry about big AoE throwing the numbers off.
The other important thing we learned was to keep things running a speed swifter than a slow crawl people could not constantly be talking over one another and needed to pay attention and know what was happening so things didn't need to be re-explained. This was accomplished after instituting a rule that only the DM could speak anytime he wanted, everyone else could only speak if they were holding a specific item (usually a dice bag that we had on hand). If you wanted to speak you'd raise your hand and get passed the item by whoever currently had it. It worked really well so nobody got drowned out by ambient chatter when they were trying to take their turn in combat or have a discussion with one another or an NPC.
I ran a game with 8 people. We were all in high school and had various work schedules, so it eventually devolved into two games a week with a different mix of 4-5 people.
When we actually had all 8, it was unwieldy at first. If your players can form some kind of hierarchy in terms of decision-making, it really streamlines things.
Combat was the hardest part because I had to throw a lot at them and it was hectic.
I've run a game with 10 players before. The most challenging part is dealing with all the side conversations and out of character talk that can detract from the game. A solution I've used that worked for me was using a "speaking stick." Players could only speak out of character if they were holding the speaking stick (exceptions were to excuse themselves from the table for whatever reason, or to request the speaking stick). We actually used a spoon, not a stick, but the concept is the same.
Anyways, on to your original question:
Try using some old school modules. Most of the 1st edition modules (and pre-1e) were designed with 8-12 players in mind. This is significantly different than the modern design mindset, where 4-5 players are assumed.
For a 1st level adventure, I strongly recommend Keep on the Borderlands. As a bonus, it's also considered an iconic module, so you and your players will get to experience some D&D history. I haven't read the KotBL thread here on the Paizo forums, so I don't know if they've updated it to the smaller party, but it might be worth a read.
Regardless, it isn't difficult to translate it to PF rules. All you have to do is use the PF monster stats instead of 1e monsters stats. The reason it is so easy is because 1e (and OD&D, BD&D, and ED&D) modules were designed with an area and not a storyline (or a very weak storyline). I've even seen a module where the entire reason you start the adventure is never solved! The whole point of the plot hook was to get you to the area, and the entire module (and adventure) was about what happened to the characters while they were there.
While I haven't actually converted any 1e modules to PF, I've converted several 2e modules (mostly Planscape adventures). From what I've GM'd of 1e, I would think it would be much easier to convert than 2e.
Good luck! Feel free to contact me if you need any help, and happy gaming. :)
Oh, another thing with 1e (and the high player design):
Part of the rules was that there was a party leader (or two). All the players would discuss amongst themselves, and the party leader would then tell the GM what the party is doing. This helps with handling the large crowd of players, as not everyone is telling the GM what their character is doing at the same time.
I recommend one party leader per 5-6 players. With your group of 9 players, it could go either way; ask your players what they'd prefer.
Specifically, since challenge ratings are usually based on four PCs, how did you scale something with more than twice the PCs?
Now, on to this question. :)
Sorry, I only skimmed your OP, and I missed this question.
The pathfinder system actually works quite well for scaling. Reread over the Gamemastery chapter in the CRB.
You start with an APL - Average Party Level - with 4-5 players. With 6+, you add 1 to the APL. With 9 players, you might even make it APL +2.
From there, just pick appropriate encounters with the CR matching the APL.
One thing I have noticed is that action economy is king in these systems. That means that a single enemy is at a significant disadvantage. I've overcome this by adding a lot of minions, or simply having an encounter with a lot of smaller critters.
Remember, in PF, they make it really easy to set up encounters with minions and mooks. For example, here's my CR and XP analysis of a 200 Goblin army. My conclusion was that 200 goblins (CR 1/3 individually) is a CR 13 encounter worth 6400 XP.
Oh, and for completeness, in the last 12+ player game I ran, I did this.
Assuming 9 players at 1st level is APL 3, let's evaluate some CR 3 example encounters. We'll look at the 1 big bad guy, a pair of baddies, a BBEG with minions, and a small horde.
1 BBEG:
1 Ogre is CR 3. He's fairly difficult to hit (AC 17), and a single hit by him will take out a character, with his minimum of 9 damage and his +7 to hit. That'll make the player very sad. While he only gets 1 attack per round, and the party gets 9 attacks per round, he'll still be active for some time due to hit high HP (30) and high AC. Each round, the ogre will take out a different character, making the party weaker. This would actually be a good challenge from the ogre's perspective, as I think he could actually win it.
A Pair:
2 creatures is CR+2, so we're looking at two CR 1 monsters. Two gnolls would be a good example. Minimum 4 damage, and only a +3 to hit, so they won't take out a character as quickly as the ogre. With two of them, they only get 2 attacks per round. The party can easily take them out with their 9 attacks per round, due to their medium AC and HP.
BBEG and Minions:
BBEG: Gnoll
Mooks: 3 Goblins
Gnolls is CR 1, Goblins are CR 1/3 each (3 = CR 1). CR 1 + CR 1 = CR 3
This has the same advantaged with the Pair group - a single attack won't take a character out. But with only 4 bad guys, there are only 4 attacks. It's better than the pair, but the 9 attacks from the party should still take them out quickly. These bad guys should last a round longer than the Pair, while still posing a threat to the party. Additionally, they should be able to use some tactics, like flanking, against the party.
Horde:
Kobolds (1/4 CR individually).
4 Kobolds = CR 1
8 Kobolds = CR 3
An 8 kobold horde would be a solid challenge for the party. Nearly equivalent action economy (8 vs 9). They're easy to hit, and if two or three gang up on one character, the character still has a chance to survive. Additionally, it'll give each of the players a chance to shine. The melee combatants can dive in swinging, the ranged characters can stand back and fire into the melee, and the controllers actually have a chance to control.
Edit: corrections made, analysis altered, changed formatting
If it's a one off see if you can find 'The Great Paladin Hunt' or recreate it. It was a joke tournament adventure that was strictly time based.
The PCs, all Paladins, had been rounded up by a tribe of Gnolls - or replace with whatever suitable humanoid you wish and had precisely 4 hours of game time to escape the swamp. In game the PCs were given a head start of 5 minutes.
So imagine all the various hazards, traps and monsters that could exist plus add in times for the Gnolls to get to certain parts of the adventure. Now for some extra fun tie in the loss of Paladin abilities to player behaviour - speaking out of turn, dropping crisps, not getting the GM a beer etc.
If you are after something more serious try the old 1e adventure T1: The Village of Hommlet - I've ran that several times with 8-10 PCs plus additional NPCs
Thank you all!
At least now I have a few options that should work. I'm leaning toward the BBEG and minions as you get better action economy, but also get the satisfaction of taking out something more substantial. I've got a few weeks to hammer it out, so keep the suggestions coming, they are appreciated.
-Strange Doc
Another fun idea:
A magical event scrambles the minds of the characters so that they have to share bodies.... to rescue the comatose original bodies of half the group they have to work together (really together)... in combat every other round is controlled by one of two players but both players have a vested interest in the others success (one wants his body back and the other wants sole control of his own body....)... for RP scenes have them make opposed Will saves for control of a scene.
Still only "four" or "five" combatants a round.... RP gold
I also recommend T1 - The Village of Hommlet. It's another of those iconic adventures (it's the low level module that leads into the Temple of Elemental Evil). It's a 1e module, so it was designed for 8-12 players. And it also gives you a change to continue the iconic adventure path if this group ever decides to meet up again.
As for the BBEG + Minions vs Small Horde, I'd recommend trying to throw both of them in your one shot game (assuming you've designed your own adventure). Instead of 8 kobolds, have them fight 6 goblins (CR 3) on their way up to the Gnoll + 3 Goblin (CR 3) encounter. To make it even more challenging, you could do Gnoll + 6 Goblin (CR 4).
If you prefer a more reptilian opponent, go with a troglodyte or lizardfolk for your BBEG (CR 1) and kobolds for the minions (CR 1/4).
For a more challenging encounter, you could use a bugbear for the BBEG (CR 2) with minions (3 goblins or 4 kobolds) for a total of a CR 4 encounter.
This is an example of why I like the pathfinder system so much more than 3.5e and previous editions - the encounter scaling flows very well (including the XP given).