There's a feat weapon abilities that do same as feats, such as Keen and Cleave. How broken would it be for Agile to be a feat that allows applying Dex to dmg with Finesse weapons? Got an agile character, but his damage is lacking if he doesn't use an Agile weapon.
|
I actually do this in my games: I allow anybody to use their Dexterity Modifier to Hit with Finesse Weapons and characters with Weapon Finesse to add their Dexterity Modifier instead of Strength Modifier to Damage with the same.
It is, amazingly, not really broken. I man, sure, I've got Rogues dealing an average of +3 DMG per Hit, but is buffing Rogues really a big problem? Similarly, it helps to fix the Monk a good deal. There is plenty of room for people to take advantage of the change, of course, but so far nobody has really gotten crazy with it.
As far as I can see, it limits weapon choices, but allows agile characters to stay agile. While yes, it gives us some ac, we cannot wield shields because the check penalty applies to finesse attacks and armor has limited dex, while a 18 str character and power attack is lethal matter what he wields.
Yeah, but it balances out, doesn't it? That combo would need a special material, two feats if Agile is allowed. To simply match Longsword and steel shield. I don't mean to be picky, just an observation that we need to go an extra mile to match a str character.
There is a feat like that already. It's a mythic feat, and as long as it isn't cut from Mythic Adventures, should be available to such characters whenever that hardcover comes out.
In addition, the guy who got Agile into the game also found that a feat version of that ability was too good. Take that as you will.
Well, when optimizing most things can be taken to the extremely be too good. Do you know what was too good about it? Were playing a 10th level game, so if I went for 18 Str, I would receive, what, +6 with two handed weapons which there are dozens of, another +9 from Power attack.
Vs a limited selection of two handed, one handed, and all light weapons for +4 damage, and two feats to be able to do so?
Exception is curven elven blade which has +4 from dex and +9 from power attack, that's three feats and choice of one exotic two-hander?
Edit:
Sorry Kyrt, I was thinking mithril for casters.
|
There is - it's called Dervish Dance. If you want to talk to your GM about changing the prerequisites or conditions, that's up to you.
There is - it's called Dervish Dance. If you want to talk to your GM about changing the prerequisites or conditions, that's up to you.
Seeing as the idea behind agile as feat is so a a fair character can be lethal with any finesse weapon, it'd easier to use Agile than butcher Dervish.
I know I'm likely to be wrong, but I can't imagine a scenario that doesn't contain extreme minmaxing for dex to be better then str in same situations.
Thats a default scenario for this question, stats used are 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12. Bit high I know, but it's a high power fun time kinda game. Level 10 gestalt if it matters.
I used to do that, but then bonuses became too mundane, a +2 was like meh. I'm hoping with this that a bonus ability scare will have more impact. With that said, I'd love to make twf and dexter chars as viable as str without having to play ranger or fighter.
Yeah, I try to allow most stuff that overly doesn't break gameplay off the bat, at least playtest it or check forums before I say no.
A reason why game design charges a feat or two for Dex to apply to melee attack and damageis simple: Str does not add to one of the saves nor to initiative checks, nor does Str apply to any skills in PF besides climb and swim. This is why the system "taxes" feats for using a Dex bonus to stuff that the Str bonus is supposed to be used for.
A reason why game design charges a feat or two for Dex to apply to melee attack and damageis simple: Str does not add to one of the saves nor to initiative checks, nor does Str apply to any skills in PF besides climb and swim. This is why the system "taxes" feats for using a Dex bonus to stuff that the Str bonus is supposed to be used for.
I personally don't mind feat tax at all. I just likened to have the option besides a +2 weapon so a bandit can be dangerous with a shank or a dagger without paying thousands of gold to do what anyone else can do.
I get that there's more dex skills as well, all of which are penalized by armor, so a str char has better choice of armor, weapons and shields. Much of these are situational tho, not every dex character is a stealthy thief, but gaining reflex in place for armor sounds somewhat fair, doesn't it?
I don't actually see any complaints in this thread about it costing two feats Turin. Only that those of us who support such an 'Improved Weapon Finesse' feat find Dervish Dance underpowered except possibly in the hands of a Magus (and even then I have to wonder. A few extra points of damage for a class that's already good at throwing damage when needed, at the cost of a precious feat.)
A simple 'Improved Weapon Finesse' feat that expands Weapon Finesse to include Dexterity Modifier to damage with Finesse Weapons fits perfectly into the game.
Ok, sometimes I see so many "why can't I use Dex for "everything" complaints it makes the brainbox hurt.
Granted, I think it would be hilarious to see a 10 feat chain for each of the ability scores that effectively does just that. ^_______^
Ya know, the 10th feats are called something like "Your name is Dexter the Dextrous".
Sry to crash this thread, but can u have a draconic bloodline with a sorcerer sage archetype
I've seen the Dervish Dancer feat in play for a few campaigns now and I'm seriously considering altering the feat to simply work with all 1-handed finessable weapons. The scimitars are getting old.
Strength is still the better stat for delivering large amounts of damage in melee via power attack and higher base damage dice.
Requiring one hand to be free limits dualwielding and the elven courtblade - dualwielding is still viable for rogues and certain other builds, but on the whole 1handed is better. The courtblade gets left out in the cold though.
Monks suddenly become a bit less MAD, always a good thing.
I don't actually see any complaints in this thread about it costing two feats Turin. Only that those of us who support such an 'Improved Weapon Finesse' feat find Dervish Dance underpowered except possibly in the hands of a Magus (and even then I have to wonder. A few extra points of damage for a class that's already good at throwing damage when needed, at the cost of a precious feat.)
A simple 'Improved Weapon Finesse' feat that expands Weapon Finesse to include Dexterity Modifier to damage with Finesse Weapons fits perfectly into the game.
Ok, sometimes I see so many "why can't I use Dex for "everything" complaints it makes the brainbox hurt.
Granted, I think it would be hilarious to see a 10 feat chain for each of the ability scores that effectively does just that. ^_______^
Ya know, the 10th feats are called something like "Your name is Dexter the Dextrous".
I know what you mean, but it was intended to fulfill a concept of a character and in this case it's an agile, bug fragile Alchemists who uses knowledge of anatomy to inflict lethal wounds with a dagger. So he has decent ac from dex, and deals 1d4+4 damage with a knife where any matching str does 1d8+4 and can wear any armor and shield without extra penalties.
If I wanted power, I'd just grab a two hander archetype for fighter :)
That's what makes the feat interesting though. If it was just straight "Dex to Damage" then every two-weapon build under the moon would take it.
If you allowed it to straight up replace strength then suddenly 1.5 dex to damage with two-handed weapons would make the Curve Blade (not court, don't know why I keep thinking that's it) by far one of the best weapons in the game.
Once you have a handy haversack and some mithral armor you're essentially completely ignoring the strength stat. That's what makes Dervish Dancer so attractive, and it makes sense to make you jump some extra hoops to get it.
An empty hand works well for that.
That's what makes the feat interesting though. If it was just straight "Dex to Damage" then every two-weapon build under the moon would take it.
If you allowed it to straight up replace strength then suddenly 1.5 dex to damage with two-handed weapons would make the Curve Blade (not court, don't know why I keep thinking that's it) by far one of the best weapons in the game.
Once you have a handy haversack and some mithral armor you're essentially completely ignoring the strength stat. That's what makes Dervish Dancer so attractive, and it makes sense to make you jump some extra hoops to get it.
An empty hand works well for that.
But I already stated that agile specifically says no to +1-1/2 dex on two handed, and is still halved for offhand.
You'd still get +50% bonus from Power Attack cuz it's a two hander tho, but you have choice if what, two finesse two handers?
That's what makes the feat interesting though. If it was just straight "Dex to Damage" then every two-weapon build under the moon would take it.
If you allowed it to straight up replace strength then suddenly 1.5 dex to damage with two-handed weapons would make the Curve Blade (not court, don't know why I keep thinking that's it) by far one of the best weapons in the game.
Once you have a handy haversack and some mithral armor you're essentially completely ignoring the strength stat. That's what makes Dervish Dancer so attractive, and it makes sense to make you jump some extra hoops to get it.
An empty hand works well for that.
But I already stated that agile specifically says no to +1-1/2 dex on two handed, and is still halved for offhand.
You'd still get +50% bonus from Power Attack cuz it's a two hander tho, but you have choice if what, two finesse two handers?
Except Elven Curveblade costs yet another feat (or being an Elf and having all martial weapon proficiencies), so remind me why it would be an issue if it multiplied dexterity modifier by 1.5 for damage?
On the subject of Two Weapon Fighting, in my personal experience a game that lacks significant houserules will mean that Two Weapon Fighting is significantly underpowered and if this two feat chain can help save TWF then I'd welcome such a feat.
I'm trying to playlist a household mimicking Mobility fighter feature. Anyone can attack with each held weapon, up to two as a standard action.
This means you can power attack charge with a greatsword or with his long and shortsword. The twf is forced to pay double for weapon upgrades, so it should balance out.
I was slow in posting there, my last post debating dexterity damage and two-handed weapons was specifically directed at kyrt-ryder.
Edit: Wow, this thread is updating fast.
My issue with making the Curve Blade get 1.5 dexterity to damage is that then you have one of the most viable weapons in the game (available for free to elves and half-elves) completely eliminate any reason to use Strength, or indeed other two-handed weapons.
You run into the Scimitar issue caused by Dervish Dancer all over again.
Why use a falchion and strength when the Curve Blade and dexterity does the exact same thing but also gives you better touch AC, movement speed (from lighter armor), skill bonuses, initiative, and reflex saves?
I don't think two feats is a high enough price to make strength completely useless. I do think two feats is a high enough price to open a new and interesting play style.
That's why I'd open up Dervish Dancer to finesse weapons, but I'd still rule that you'd need one hand free.
And on that note I'm off to bed, it is 3.16 AM here. Feel free to PM me or keep posting here, I'd be happy to continue this discussion when I'm back among the conscious.