I have a cavalier in my party who is looking for feats for his horse. For the purposes of feats, who is actually doing the charging? Specifically, he asked me about Minotaur's Charge. Can his horse get this feat? Will it apply while the cavalier is performing a mounted charge?
You are both charging. If the cavalier is using a reach weapon then only the cavalier would get the attack at the end of the charge. If the cavalier and the mount have the same reach then they can both make attacks. Either the mount (as long as Int is 3+) or the cavalier can take the feat and it will only apply to attacks made by them on a charge.
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The mount is charging, not you. You just get most of the benefits of charging. Minotaur's Charge would only work if your mount took the feat and made the attack. In this quote SKR specifically states "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".
And before the inevitable "But what about..." questions crop up, here's JJ's input on feats like Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge which are specifically designed for mounted combat:
Both charge, together, on the same initiative count (for most feat-related purposes). Both take the -2 to AC. Both get the appropriate benefit to any attack they may or may not make at the end of the charge to contact movement.
If the horse takes the feat, it is the horse's attack (if any) that might also initiate the bull rush. If the cavalier takes the feat, it is the cavalier's attack (if any) that might also initiate the bull rush.
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Both charge, together, on the same initiative count (for most feat-related purposes). Both take the -2 to AC. Both get the appropriate benefit to any attack they may or may not make at the end of the charge to contact movement.
If the horse takes the feat, it is the horse's attack (if any) that might also initiate the bull rush. If the cavalier takes the feat, it is the cavalier's attack (if any) that might also initiate the bull rush.
Incorrect. The cavalier is not charging, and so cannot use Minotaur's Charge from the back of a charging mount.
I sincerely apologize for the redundant posts. I didn't think the form had submitted when I went back to correct the post. If there's a way for me to delete my own thread, let me know. (Otherwise, I have also flagged the other threads as double posts.)
Please ignore the other posts and continue discussion here. (I will refrain from posting in the other two so they can get buried by newer threads more quickly.)
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Thanks, guys. This still sounds a bit tricky. If the mount takes the feat, the mount would get the bull-rush ability, no question. However, it would be impossible for the rider to benefit from Minotaur's Charge if the mount had the feat. Also, if the rider took the feat, it would not apply while he is riding because he is not the one charging. Is that right?
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I sincerely apologize for the redundant posts. I didn't think the form had submitted when I went back to correct the post. If there's a way for me to delete my own thread, let me know. (Otherwise, I have also flagged the other threads as double posts.)
Please ignore the other posts and continue discussion here. (I will refrain from posting in the other two so they can get buried by newer threads more quickly.)
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Thanks, guys. This still sounds a bit tricky. If the mount takes the feat, the mount would get the bull-rush ability, no question. However, it would be impossible for the rider to benefit from Minotaur's Charge if the mount had the feat. Also, if the rider took the feat, it would not apply while he is riding because he is not the one charging. Is that right?
That's about the long and the short of it. The only way for a mounted character to make use of that ability would be for the mount to take the feat. The mount would also need to make its own attack to utilize the feat (this can usually be done by the rider making the DC 10 Ride check to fight with a combat trained mount followed by the Handle Animal check for the mount to use the Attack trick) since it is the one who actually possesses the ability.
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Oh, derp. I will have that fixed when I get in the office tomorrow.
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Chicken came before the egg.
Wait. No.
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Oh, derp. I will have that fixed when I get in the office tomorrow.But that's where you already are! :O
;)
You still got five minutes of today left by my watch!
EDIT: I dear god! I'm living in the past!
If the Caviler is riding a horse, then it can not get the Minotaur's Charge unless the GM allows it. The reason why is because of the Prerequisites. Yes the mount will have to have an Int. of 3 in order to get a feat outside of the basic feats it can have. But here is the big part. The horse does not have Powerful Charge (Ex) ability witch is one of the prerequisites for Minotaur's Charge.
Both charge, unless the combo is ridiculously powerful. This isn't. they're both charging. Have fun storming the castle.
Both charge, unless the combo is ridiculously powerful. This isn't. they're both charging. Have fun storming the castle.
The Pathfinder Rules says "Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."
It's just like an animal companion. You and you animal have your 2 seperate actions.
So Chris since your time traveling and all wanna help me fill out a playoffs bracket?
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The mount is charging, not you. You just get most of the benefits of charging. Minotaur's Charge would only work if your mount took the feat and made the attack. In this quote SKR specifically states "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".
And before the inevitable "But what about..." questions crop up, here's JJ's input on feats like Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge which are specifically designed for mounted combat:
As an addendum, here is the entire quote from JJ that Ssalarn referenced:
In any event, if YOU have pounce and you're mounted, you can't use the effects of pounce because YOU (not your mount) has to charge in order to activate pounce.If you are not charging when your mount charges, will we ever get errata for Spirited Charge, Mighty Charge, and Supreme Charge? They all require that you charge / use the charge action / make a charge attack while mounted. But if your mount charging doesn't count as you charging, they are all impossible to use.heavy sigh
Those feats work fine. The language might not be 100% super precise, but you can assume that in the cases of those feats, a charging mount that you're riding lets you use the feats as written.
If you think they need errata, post in the proper book's thread and hit the FAQ button.
What has Pathfinder changed about the mounted rules that would invalidate these ?
Someone noticed that a barbarian with pounce could do awesome damage when mounted. Because martials can't have nice things otherwise they would be casters, some dev said that when the mount charges, it is charging but the rider isn't, he just goes along and gets the bonus and penalties for charging. Some people pointed that that is a stupid ruling because it invalidates the extra damage of lances and also invalidates every single mounted charge related feat ever, so another dev piped that lances and mounted charge feats still work because their language should have had will be changed so they work. We're still waiting for him to borrow Chris time machine and make those changes.
If the character has Minotaurs Charge it should apply when he does a mounted charge. A better question is how did he get Minotaurs Charge, since that has a prerequisite of a monster special attack you can't get through feats.
Yeah it's now Psuedo-charge.
This way we can control your martial power level by saying that you count as charging for X ( where X is any number of class features or feats that work off of charging sime requiring being mounted others not) but not for Y (where y is any number of class features or feats that work off of charging).
Unfortunately they ruled that way to avoid a corner case of pounce and ended up giving every mounted lance build a reason to grab vital strike and it's betters. If anyone needed a better reason for vital strike....here it is.
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Someone noticed that a barbarian with pounce could do awesome damage when mounted. Because martials can't have nice things otherwise they would be casters, some dev said that when the mount charges, it is charging but the rider isn't, he just goes along and gets the bonus and penalties for charging. Some people pointed that that is a stupid ruling because it invalidates the extra damage of lances and also invalidates every single mounted charge related feat ever, so another dev piped that lances and mounted charge feats still work because their language should have had will be changed so they work. We're still waiting for him to borrow Chris time machine and make those changes.
If the character has Minotaurs Charge it should apply when he does a mounted charge. A better question is how did he get Minotaurs Charge, since that has a prerequisite of a monster special attack you can't get through feats.
Characters have always had a separate pool of actions from their mount. The lance description in the weapons entry specifically states "When used from the back of a charging mount..."
And the rules for mounted combat have laid out how mounts use their own actions but people mounted on them get certain benefits since 3.0.It's nothing new, just a clarification of existing rules.
If you want to do massive damage from a mount while full attacking, grab Mounted Skirmisher and TA-DAH! You've now got mounted Pounce.
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Unfortunately they ruled that way to avoid a corner case of pounce and ended up giving every mounted lance build a reason to grab vital strike and it's betters. If anyone needed a better reason for vital strike....here it is.
Mounted Skirmisher still gives Mounted characters the same benefits as Pounce (as long as they're mounted) it just requires you to, you know, actually build a mounted character by spending the appropriate feats.
Unfortunately they ruled that way to avoid a corner case of pounce and ended up giving every mounted lance build a reason to grab vital strike and it's betters. If anyone needed a better reason for vital strike....here it is.
Except you can't Vital Strike on a charge...
Except you can't Vital Strike on a charge...
Based on the new ruling, your character ISN'T charging, just their mount. So the character gets the +2 to hit / -2 to AC etc mods of charging, without actually committing the charge action themselves. All this, just to squirm out of the way of allowing mounted pouncing... but now it opens the door to Vital Strike, or any of the other attack actions not normally allowed during a charge maneuver, along with breaking the rules language of everything else related to mounted combat prior to that ruling.
Honestly, the simpler thing would just be to rewrite pounce to explicitly say 'not while mounted, you crazy kids!'. Then everything else can continue to function as normal, and barbarians can weep a single tear for the loss. Wizards will shrug and continue to make and unmake the universe with a wave of the hand.
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*** along with breaking the rules language of everything else related to mounted combat prior to that ruling.
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No it doesn't. Mounted combat has read the same way forever. The only issue is with people who didn't get the action economy of mounted combat. The Ride-by attack feat says "When you are mounted and use the charge action...". Mounted Combat states "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)." So mounted combat feats like Ride-by Attack are clearly referencing riding a charging mount.
If you take the time to read the rules in their completeness SKR's clarification and JJ's statements are changes to anything that didn't already exist, they're just clarifications of how it has worked all along. There are all of three feats that cause some confusion, and if you understand how mounted combat is supposed to work based on the existing material it's clear what triggers those feats.
I've had a Vital Striking cavalier for well over a year and I've never had a problem with running him in PFS or using the combo anywhere else. It has always been legal, and it is one of the better uses of the Vital Strike chain.
Is there a charge trick?
At the very least you may be spending a move action to command your mount to charge (attack trick).
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*** Then there's the fact that the part on lances doing double damage is a subsection of the charge rule which says "Charging is a special full-round action..." Sean Reynolds statement that the character does not use the chrage action certainly doesn't add any clarity with regard to feats and class features that refer to characters using the charge action when mounted.
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If you look at lances under the equipment weapon section (because you know, they are weapons and that's where one would expect the most complete details to be) it specifically says "A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount." That's in the CRB, Ultimate Equipment, and pretty much anywhere else you are going to find a lance entry.
There are not two different sets of rules for charging. There is a rule for charging, and there are mounted combat rules that dictate how the charge action interacts with combat from the back of a mount.
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Is there a charge trick?
At the very least you may be spending a move action to command your mount to charge (attack trick).
This is actually a very good point, and actually builds in some basic limiters to mounted combat.
Under the current ruleset, there is no "Charge" trick, and you would have to spend your move action to Push your mount. That actually mitigates a lot of the other issues. If you have to Push, you can't Pounce, you can't attack with two lances on a charge, etc.
So it kind of resolves itself.
I don't think you need to push a mount to charge but I do think you need to make a handle animal check to attack. Charge should just be built into that trick IMHO. So you are taking a move action and thus when you get to the end of said charge all you have is a standard.
Edit: If it did require a push then you would get to do nothing while the mount charged. You would spend your entire round getting the mount to charge.
Similarly ambiguous rules issue: I am on a horse, I charge at someone. I attack with my lance of whatever. Does the horse also attack, or can it only do so if I'm not putting its momentum behind my own attack?
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This sort of half uprooting of the existing rules is what gave us a nonfunctional stealth skill. This one is immeasurably easier to fix. Just add a line of text in a couple places and return to the interpretation that both mount and rider charge.
The rules were never changed. It has never been that mount and rider both charge. They've always had it that the mount uses its actions and you gain certain bonuses and penalties as a result of riding it. Mounted combat has read the same way since 3.0.
Edit: If it did require a push then you would get to do nothing while the mount charged. You would spend your entire round getting the mount to charge.
You would spend one move action to tell it to charge. Once it is moving and doing what you've told it to do, you can use your standard action as appropriate.
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Similarly ambiguous rules issue: I am on a horse, I charge at someone. I attack with my lance of whatever. Does the horse also attack, or can it only do so if I'm not putting its momentum behind my own attack?
If you make the Ride check to fight with a combat trained mount, your horse can attack as well.
Sorry BNW, but you are wrong. The devs have specifically stated otherwise, as I linked in above.Both charge, unless the combo is ridiculously powerful. This isn't. they're both charging. Have fun storming the castle.
And by the devs ruling, lances don't work and vital strike does.
The devs tossed the baby out with the bath water to get rid of one corner case of something being insanely overpowered. So "you're not charging but you are but only for some feats and items" is how things currently stand until they notice how screwed up it is and try to change it.
Hell, ride by attacked still hasn't been fixed after all this time..
Hmmm...maybe lances are not broken.
When you are mounted you are treated as taking up the entire space of the mount. So you in fact have a 2x2 square to work with. Now since lances are a reach weapon we can decide which of our 4 squares to attack from for determining cover. If we attack from a rear square then we can still hit the enemy while the mount will get their attack as well. The down side is that in some cases your front squares will be providing cover for the enemy. The up side is that if you attack at an angle, instead of straight on, you won't have the cover issue.
Hmmm...maybe lances are not broken.
When you are mounted you are treated as taking up the entire space of the mount. So you in fact have a 2x2 square to work with. Now since lances are a reach weapon we can decide which of our 4 squares to attack from for determining cover. If we attack from a rear square then we can still hit the enemy while the mount will get their attack as well. The down side is that in some cases your front squares will be providing cover for the enemy. The up side is that if you attack at an angle, instead of straight on, you won't have the cover issue.
Your in all those spaces not just one. Otherwise we get Shroedinger's mounted lancer who's in one square to attack you from but another when something moves next to him.
@akerlof
The charge is invalid if the horse can't reach the intended square. If your planned attack would stop the horse short then you invaladate the charge. Much like how you have to have a clear line to charge not a possible clear line based on readied actions of teammates to kill things on your way or to move.