I was looking at the feat Sacred Summons, which looks really cool at first blush. But then I took a peek at the summoning lists to find that there are zero creatures that exactly match my gods alignment of Lawful Neutral. So, my question is this; what's stopping me from just adding/swapping creatures into the lists? I imagine there is some sort of balance issue that was taken into account when the lists were created, but shouldn't adding creatures be a case of straight up CR balancing?
As a related topic, I recall reading in Dragon Magazine (I think) a variant to the summoning rules where a summoner created a custom list by researching and contacting specific individual outsiders whom he forged agreements with and could then summon to his aid. There were mechanics involved, but they are long lost from my memory. The disadvantage is a greatly reduced list from which one could summon creatures, since the process was rather involved, so you didn't have the 6-12 choices, but more like 2-3 choices, depending on how vigorously you pursued populating your summoning lists. The advantage was that you summoned that PRECISE individual, so if you could Call them instead occasionally, you could then gift them with items that would increase their power and versatility. I think there was also a mechanic to either "level" them with you or add new ones as you went.
So, with all of the above in mind, this is what I was thinking. I wish to have my character make peaceful contact with a LN outsider, likely an Azer, since they seem to be the ones that most closely fit with my character's outlook. I was thinking of researching and arranging a "meeting" with an Azer noble or similar powerful individual of that race and arrange for the periodic "borrowing" of some of his vassals on an ongoing basis. As I became more powerful, I would return to update the agreement to contract more powerful vassals to fill roles in my higher level Monster Summoning lists.
Advice, similar experiences and/or resources are all welcome in this.
Dotted. Very interested in those alternate summoning rules.
Well, really you need to discuss this with your GM.
Probably need to find the magazine article you were refering to. I don't remember reading it. But I probably read less than 1 out of 5 of them.
It sounds like a 3.x thing. Alot of the old 3.x stuff becomes really powerful if allowed with PF.
But it sounds more like a calling spell than a summoning spell. those are better and worse than summoning.
Unfortunately, the issue is deeper than just adding monsters with equivalent CR, or even replacing with equivalent CR. The monster list isn't just balanced against what CR creature it can summon, it's also one of the most flexible spells in the game. Some of the creatures can fly for instance, so you can prepare summon monster instead of fly in the morning and be able to counter flying enemies, or use the summon spell to summon something else. Some have climb speeds. Some can cast VERY useful spells, or have highly effective special attacks like trample.
That's probably not worded very coherently, sorry. My point is that adding creatures (and versatility) to summon monster makes an already versatile and powerful spell even MORE powerful and versatile.
Replacing creatures is probably less of an issue, as long as what you are adding doesn't increase the versatility more than it takes away. I'd probably only allow replacements of 1 CR lower than the creature they're replacing to be safe. I might possibly allow a CR equal creature if I had time to look up and study both creatures in question, and make sure the addition isn't adding any powerful new abilities to the summon monster list of that level.
As for the mentioned variant summoning rules, there's no way I'd allow that in my games, it's way too powerful for summon monster. Imagine being able to call up 1d4+1 creatures all equipped with wands of stone call, or create pit, or grease? I shudder at the thought.
I would allow that on called monsters from the planar ally/binding spells, it sounds like good RP and a great way to establish some outsiders as people instead of just things you summon and throw away, but that has its own drawbacks relative to summon monster through the bargaining/binding process. Calling specific outsiders sounds fine through planar binding. I'd even allow a player to meet and specifically call outsiders with class levels or player bought and gifted equipment etc.
Several of the Adventure Path deity articles have customized summon lists for worshippers/priests of those deities.
For the Lawful Neutral deities, these are the options:
Abadar - Adventure Path issue #8: Seven Days to the Grave
Summon Monster II - Two-headed celestial eagle
Summon Monster III - Celestial hippogriff
Summon Monster IV - Two-headed celestial giant eagle
Summon Monster V - Celestial griffon
Summon Monster IX - Kolyarut inevitable
(Notes: All of these count as LN summons. The two-headed creatures gain +2 Perception (originally +2 to each of Listen, Spot, Search) but no additional attacks. This AP issue was written under 3.5 rules; if it had been written now I imagine it would probably use the new axiomatic template instead of the celestial template).
Irori - Adventure Path issue #53: Tide of Honor
Summon Monster IV - Giant mantis
Summon Monster IV - Tiger
***
Alternatively, simply ask your GM if he could add some of the LN Outsiders to the summoning lists; most of them weren't in print when the Core Rulebook was created, as they were introduced in later Bestiaries, but in my opinion each alignment should be equally represented.
You should join the Acadamae from Inner Sea Magic. As a member of their organization, you can add new creatures to your summon monster list, per the RAW.
There is a variant list over at d20pfsrd.com
Why not just throw the resolute template on all the potentially celestial animals?
They'd end up with Smite Chaos and Lawful alignments.
Why not just throw the resolute template on all the potentially celestial animals?
They'd end up with Smite Chaos and Lawful alignments.
That's a very good solution, provided both gm and player agree that you can only have one template applied. Wouldn't be fair to smite a demon twice, once for chaos, once for evil. Or, just as bad, the gm does it to the paladin the other way.
It still raises the strength of the summon monster spells since it gives bonuses against enemies it wasn't possible for before, though not nearly as much as new monsters would.
Wraithstrike, Are, The alternate summons lists on d20pfsrd and in the AP's mentioned probably shouldn't be available in most home games, it's completely out of balance. For instance, it has hellhounds as an alternate level two summons, but hellhounds are normally on the level four list. Tigers(cr 4) are an alternate level 4 that completely outclasses the lion(cr 3), also level four. And the Abadar summon list was written before the pathfinder core rule book or bestiary came out, so it refers to the 3.5 edition monsters.
RD, I don't have inner sea magic, unfortunately. I'll have to check that out, it sounds interesting. Is there a feat required?
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To OP
In 3.5 i did the sae thing u are speaking of except the character made multiple contracts with Devils. Primarily the jest of those contracts was allowed service of certain Devils via Summon Monster and in return they get to harvest the souls of those that i slay within the devils presence. This gave me access to there power at any time i see fit and gave them the ability to venture into the material plane on a periodic bases to get "soul power." The character in the end of course was dammed to hell but it was already going there so ya lol.
Another option btw is to see if the GM would allow the creatures u summon to obtain the Simple and advanced template. A few of the druid archetypes do this and it works great for summoning creatures of weaker and greater strength of there base version.