RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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From my understanding of Golarion lore (which is lacking in this particular area), certain archetypes for summoners simply do not exist. Like synthesists. They just don't exist in the world of PFS, so why make them a playable option? Also, there are various archetypes that are not allowed that utilize firearms -- because the goal is to restrict them to the gunslinger class. This is because firearms are not very widespread, so to make them available to everyone doesn't make sense.
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Summoners already have unfortunate effects on the challenge present by PFS scenarios. The various archetypes were just amplifying this problem. The roleplyers out there can likely thank munchkin rollplayers for most of the ban-hammering that has been done.
For society play, they have to make every effort to ensure that most players have a good time. No one likes to stand around while the master summoner clogs up the entire battlefield with summoned creatures. No one likes to have the synthesis summoner that can solo entire scenarios around, either.
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That's what Paizo may claim, but I have some inside info on the master summoner case. I know the exact case that prompted it to be examined in detail. The official line is that it took too much time, but it was also a balance issue for sure. Let's just say that in theoretical scenario runs, the master summoner was soloing them.
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That's what Paizo may claim, but I have some inside info on the master summoner case. I know the exact case that prompted it to be examined in detail. The official line is that it took too much time, but it was also a balance issue for sure. Let's just say that in theoretical scenario runs, the master summoner was soloing them.
That's not exactly insider info.
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I know the exact players and venture captains that initiated the primary complaint, but I don't want to name names, since I'm sure the same procedure was used for all the archetypes that got the ban-hammer. I'm just saying that there is usually more than one reason, and I bet balance is usually involved. I saw some synthesis summoner builds that could solo scenarios as well.
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I broke out Herolab and started to create when I realized it was not showing up for me as an archetype. That's when I decided to go to the resources list and found that it was banned. [...] Just saying that I can relate to coming up with a cool character idea and then being disappointed when it gets scuttled by the ban-hammer.
I think this has happened to all of us as we adapt to organized play. But we learn to move the "consulting additional resources" step to an earlier phase of our concept-generation process, because as adults, we recognize that we are making a tradeoff to become involved with organized play: More limitations leads to greater uniformity, and by extension, portability. If variety is more important than portability, play at home. If portability is of more use to you than variety, PFS is the right place to be, but it's going to affect your choices.
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Talk with your local VO. He/She will be the best person to go over this stuff with. The major reason that the additional resource is not just added is because its being updated on a constant basis. It sucks to have a an exsisting character concept be rebuilt. I can think back to a certain summoner archtype. In the beginning it was said you should check the resource page and I agree that will help alot when you plan out a character. You sound like a person who goes with concept and optimizing your build when you create a character. In any Living Campaign (Greyhawk, Shining Jewel, PFS) you are going to run across certain things that are cannon and things that are adjusted for smoothier game play across the board.
If you see that someones player character is out of whack let them know. So that way they are not caught with their pants down. Check out the Players Guide and best of all come on to the boards and ask questions. GMs cannot be expected to remember every detail and archtype their is. It is up to the players to be honest and up front. Bring materials like books for special spells and racial abilities. (If your friends are coming to the game or someone you know ask them to bring a book you all need. That way you can cut down on books at the table and still have what you need. THEIR IS NO NEED TO HAVE 6 Sets of Racial Guide books and Ultimate Magic and Players Handbooks with in a group at the same table. NONE. Have only the one book out to show the GM. Let him know you are aware. Same with spellcaster types. Know your list and have the pages noted and books. Share the source book or ask to make sure someone brings it to the table. Just make sure that the group has that reference on hand for the GM if he asks for it. Obiviously this can change due to if you are attending a CON or a place you have never gamed before and you are going solo)
D0 not be discourged. You are a newbie to this from what you have said. Keep asking questions. if the GM is unsure, say something after the game. if he is making minor mistakes or forgets something thats one thing. If he ignoring stuff thats a bit different. Give the GM the benifit of the doubt and say something at an appropite time. If you are having a real issue with a GM......say something to your local VO or Store Liason.
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I would like to know more about that thread, as it pertains to the back story of my character.Anything related to drow just aren't legal in PFS because on Golarion, you really cannot be a drow without being evil. And the drow hate other species (even other elves) so much that they won't ever breed with anything other than drows. And they hate elves more than any other race. Or at least this is what I got out of another topic discussing their banning.
Getting darkvision on your elf will be difficult, because of the inherent assumption in the lore that any natural darkvision on an elf will be from drow roots. (This doesn't explain the arctic elves though.) There does exist a magical item called Goggles of the Night that would give you darkvision, but they cost 12,000gp. Darkvision is also a second level spell for quite a many classes, so you could buy potions and scrolls for that as well.
It was this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pjej?drow-arent-legal
It doesn't give out that much, except that half-drow are so rare as to be non-existing on Golarion, and definitely not allowed in PFS.
Maybe you should invest in the Extra Rage feat? That is 6 extra rounds of rage. Effectively doubling the rounds of rage you currently have.Shouldn't be too hard to squeeze into that build, with the Fighter lvs giving you extra combat feats.
Try seeing your rages as something to use only when "nova-ing" Something reserved for difficult fights or big bosses.
I'm going to do that next level, but I'm trying to make him effective now, as I do not want to ignore or waste the fact that he has rage even it's a small amount.
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In 5 out of 7 times that I was around when a new person was playing for the first time I heard something very close to, "All you need is the Core Rule Book to play. Here is your character number." This was both at conventions and at our local. No statement of you need to go to this site, download this, or check this.IF I AM THERE TO HEAR IT, I always tell them to go on the the Paizo website to double check that they got credit for their scenario and download the latest PFS guide. I try to have a copy of the quickstart guide printed off that I can hand to a new player to get them started. But that's only when I am there to hear it.
I think alot of people forget that a new player might not already know about all that is available on this site.
Really, it ought to be printed on the little character number card they hand out.
Thank you for phrasing my argument in a better way than I could.
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"Straw man" and "sarcasm" are not the same thing. There is no argument being refuted here. Perhaps you could call it "reductio ad absurdum" but that would still ignore the fact that he isn't arguing with you. He's just making fun of you.Yeah, the hundred-book list of non-Core material allowed is pretty stifling. How's a guy supposed to produce an interesting character with so little content available?Nice strawman dude. Minus points for snark of course.
The word 'strawman' gets thrown around on this forum nearly as much as Princess Bride quotes.
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I think alot of people forget that a new player might not already know about all that is available on this site.
Really, it ought to be printed on the little character number card they hand out.
+1 excellent idea.
I hand out a book mark with three lines on it, but yeah the card is the perfect place.
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Interesting. I had sort of the same experience last night. I wanted to create a Summoner 'cuz I never have played one before and found the Wild Caller Archetype which looked fun to me. I broke out Herolab and started to create when I realized it was not showing up for me as an archetype. That's when I decided to go to the resources list and found that it was banned. There was a certain level of frustration with this as it never would have occurred to me that swapping nature's ally for summon monster spells along with gaining 1/4 more evolution points per class level but limiting what evolutions you could take was considered overpowering. Then I delved deeper and saw that almost all Summoner achetypes were banned. It did get me thinking that the powers that be in PFS really don't like the Summoner class all that much. Just saying that I can relate to coming up with a cool character idea and then being disappointed when it gets scuttled by the ban-hammer.
In the 'ask James Jacobs' thread and asked some questions, and yes, the answers helped me conclude that summoners are an un-favorite class (partially from inference, which may be off). Please petition for more legal pfs summoner archetypes.
However, whenever I run into a 'banned' concept, like this I take the time to ask myself how do I create x character without the banned parts. For example, my summoner was essentially a wild caller before the archtype came out. I took half elf, ancestoral arms, whip, the Andoran trait that gives me a bow and the child of nature faith trait (gave me survival as a class skill).
Basically, I have 'backwoods' summoner which would be perfect for the archetype, had it been legal when I made the character. But the point is, I found a way to create the concept within the legal constraints of PFS.
Just because one way of creating a character that matches a concept is illegal does not mean the concept is illegal.
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Just to throw something out there...a great deal of thought, discussion, and effort goes into the Additional Resources list. Think about it...every time a resource comes out, someone, or a bunch of someones, comb through the book to figure out what might be appropriate or not appropriate. Mike, Mark, John, and the various VO's are human. Mistakes get made. Things change. People disagree.
We had synthesists, vivisectionists, and gravewalkers too.
Things get banned for a variety of reasons. You might not agree with those reasons, or know them all. But the line must be drawn somewhere.
Remember also that the lovely folks who write these books are NOT the ones who are in Pathfinder Society Campaign management. The rest of the books are written for anyone and everyone, for the wide world of people playing under some aspect of Pathfinder RPG or Golarion. It would be silly to ask them to restrict their books to PFSOP appropriate material, and it would be equally silly to ask PFSOP to accommodate everything published by Paizo.
And really, is it so hard to access an online, bookmarkable, downloadable, printable, constantly updated list?
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Really, it ought to be printed on the little character number card they hand out.
It is, actually. Right at the bottom it says "To activate your membership, go to paizo.com/pathfindersociety"
That page, of course, contains links to all the information we've been discussing.
If people don't look at the website that their new member card tells them to look at, that's not the fault of the event organizers.
It might help if the 'Additional Resources' link on that page somehow communicated that "Additional Resources is where you go to find out if X is legal in PFS".
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Really, it ought to be printed on the little character number card they hand out.It is, actually. Right at the bottom it says "To activate your membership, go to paizo.com/pathfindersociety"
That page, of course, contains links to all the information we've been discussing.
If people don't look at the website that their new member card tells them to look at, that's not the fault of the event organizers.
That is rather flippant and simplistic.
You can spend a good long while on the website and not happen to come across the additional resources page. I was on the general Paizo site for years, then actually looking through stuff about PFS for ~2 months before I attended a single PFS session, and then I played for another ~5 months before someone mentioned the additional resources page to me. I had not found it on my own before then. Of course I wasn't looking because I didn't know that it was something for which I should have been looking.
Even when I knew it was there I couldn't find it because that person didn't remember what it was called. He said a sheet that said what was allowed. So I was searching for a downloadable pdf on what was allowed. Searching did not find it. Finally someone on a thread gave the link to the 'additional resources sheet' which is really a web page of what is allowed. It is not additional resources.
I don't know about you, but I get at least 100 links a day. Just because I happen to do something that involves a website does not mean I have any intention of tracing down every single possible link chain off of that site. I know of several people that went and 'activated' their membership and thought that was it.
Again they were basically told you only need the CRB and here is your member ID card. No mention of the Quickstart Guide (free), the Guide to Organized Play (free), or the PFS Field Guide (don't recall cost) let alone the additional resources page.
The first 2 everyone should have. I have heard differing opinions (even from VC's) on whether or not the last is required. {I personally think it is well worth the cost of the pdf. Don't know if I would say the same about the printed version.}
And as others have also mentioned, it is very easy to miss the reference to the 'additional resources' page when reading the guide.
If for some reason it is not desireable to put it on the member ID card you are given, maybe a clear statement to go get those 2 or 3 guides and to verify your build with the Additional Resources Sheet (with a direct link) when you activate a character number. That should also work.
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I think the problem some are having here with understanding how and why someone could miss that you need to look at Additional Resources for legality in PFS is that it is in the Guide.
The idea that someone would join an Organized RPG group and go months without actually reading the guide to the group they have joined seems a bit odd. For myself at least I am not sympathetic to any complaints about not knowing you needed to look at Additional Resources because the Guide tells you that you need to.
I am sympathetic however to anyone stating that the link provided in the guide does not work though, that needs to be updated. That said looking a few seconds on the page the link sends you to will bring you to Additional Resources.
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Again, many people are not being told the guide even exists let alone that they need to look at it. The person I was responding to flippantly said the website is on the card, nothing else needs to be done, it isn't our fault.
The additional resources page is fairly easy to find in the guide now. I don't think in the version a few years ago it was nearly as prominent or easy to find.
When I first did find out about and read the guide I missed the statement several times.
Probably at least partly because of its location in the guide (at the time I was reading a paper copy that didn't have highlighted colored links). But also because it is called 'additional resources'.
I was already having a bugger of a time figuring everything out from the 3 books I had. I sure as heck didn't need additional resources confusing me even further. At this point I really can't say for sure if I noticed it or not. But I am quite sure if I had noticed something called 'additional resources' I would not have gone looking for it.
Now if it had clearly said at the begining of the character building section go HERE to determine if your build is legal for PFS play, I think I would have noticed it and checked on it. Instead I believe I eventually found it as additional resources under the feats descriptions with almost no mention of description of what it was for. Again why would I have gone looking for it.
As you said,
...When introducing new players to the campaign, you NEED to tell them they need to read the Guide before making their own characters...
but from what I have seen, that actually rarely happens.
I tell every new player that I have a conversation with, to download the free 'guide to play' and check the 'additional resources page' to find what items in which books are allowed (even though it is most of them). But I have only heard one other person tell that to new players.
I don't know if they are afraid of confusing them or scaring them away with too much stuff at once, forget others don't know, are too busy to take the time, or some other reason. But it isn't happening very often.
I have only been to 2 cons and have played at or watched PFS games at 3 different store locations. So that is clearly not a high saturation cross section. Yes, I am sure there are lots of players and VC's who do tell people. But it is by no means all of them.
It is wrong to just assume all are being told or that you are an idiot if you don't find out about all that stuff on your own even if you are not told anything at all.
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Again, many people are not being told the guide even exists let alone that they need to look at it.
How can someone reasonably not realize there are not a set of rules for Pathfinder Society out there? It is obvious that there is just by playing the game.
Common logic leads to the fact there needs to be a Guide for the rules you see every time you play a society game (Fame, factions all lead to the idea).
I am sorry someone saying they did not know there was a guide therefore not realizing someone had to write down the rules they are using is just not something I will believe for a normal adult to come to as a conclusion.
Edit: I can see someone not being told maybe a few games, but it is impossible to go months without the subject of the Guide coming up, that and be actual legal since much of the rules to make and level your character needs to be referenced in the guide. Example when the question of Fame comes up the guide would be brought up since the chart for it is in the guide.
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I don't know about you, but I get at least 100 links a day. Just because I happen to do something that involves a website does not mean I have any intention of tracing down every single possible link chain off of that site. I know of several people that went and 'activated' their membership and thought that was it.
If I join an organization, and I'm given a link to their website, and the website tells me "Here is the Guide, read it," and I don't, how is that not my fault?
We give them a membership card. Anyone who can't make the connection from "Hmm, this is an organization, and on this card is a link to the website, which has a lot of information" to "As a member I should probably go ahead and read this information" is probably not someone who will benefit from being told, "OH BY THE WAY YOU SHOULD LOOK AT TEH WEBSITES LOL" anyway.
IQuarent, you might also want to pick up some Shoanti Barbarian Chew, for a one-round rage coast effect (much like Lingering Performance for bards).
What source book is that from?
