Would you play with this GM?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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But if a player came to you wanting to make it custom were it not in the book? Even if your campaign were particularly outsider heavy?


Ashiel wrote:


In both cases neither sound like problems with item creation but instead problems (real or otherwise) with other areas of the game that you're associating with item creation.

I would say that the game changing issue with items (thanks to carpets of flying, portable holes, handy haversacks, bags of holding, etc) is a much older issue than easy item creation. We used a lot of those items back in 1e when item creation was difficult. And, yes, those were intended to change the game.

The problem with easy item creation (or purchase) is that it transforms the game from one in which players learn to adapt and make do with what they've got into one in which quirky or specialty-use items are sacrificed to a frequently useful bonus (usually part of the Big 6). It also has the potential to radically transform the nature of resource management for spellcasters. I think those are the real legacies of easy item creation/purchase that weren't a significant part of D&D pre-3e.


Buri wrote:
But if a player came to you wanting to make it custom were it not in the book? Even if your campaign were particularly outsider heavy?

Keep in mind that the pricing in the Core Rules is based on a bog-standard Pathfinder Campaign, not one that is planar travel or outsider heavy. Against most opponents and in most situations, that Sword of the Planes is just an expensive +1 weapon. In a Planescape campaign, however, that sword should be worth a chunk more than 22,000 gp and, as a GM, I would price it higher. In fact, I would price it as the weapon it is most of the time, +4 (32,000 gp).

In AD&D days, when the Sword of the Planes debuted, the pricing of magic items was significantly different. WBL tables didn't exist. The inclusion of magic items in treasure hoards wasn't based on price, but on their nature (swords and armor, potions, scrolls were the ones usually called out) and, if you used the random tables, rarity. DMs were encouraged to eyeball the challenge of getting the hoard and estimate whether or not it felt a reasonable match.

That said, in 1e, that Sword of the Planes was give the same GP value as a +4 Defender or +5 sword. And there are definitely situations in which I find the 1e prices make a better comparison of magic item utility than 3e/PF prices.


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Bill Dunn wrote:


In AD&D days, when the Sword of the Planes debuted, the pricing of magic items was significantly different. WBL tables didn't exist.

It's also worth remembering that in AD&D days, Identify was a fairly high-level spell, and rarely used. Identifying magic items was like trial-and-error bomb disposal.


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Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:


In AD&D days, when the Sword of the Planes debuted, the pricing of magic items was significantly different. WBL tables didn't exist.
It's also worth remembering that in AD&D days, Identify was a fairly high-level spell, and rarely used. Identifying magic items was like trial-and-error bomb disposal.

I am pretty sure that it has always been a 1st level spell. However, given the high material component cost, the temporary constitution loss, and the general unreliability of the spell for low level casters, there was very little point in ever casting that spell as written.


Ashiel wrote:
Piccolo wrote:
Your point, Ashiel?

My point is that higher level characters aren't supposed to worry about trail rations much if at all, and hauling treasure around is the entire point of having things like portable holes. What is ironic is that Cold Napalm explains that the problem is they have better Big Six items than their peers, but I explained why that seems weird unless the other players are investing exceedingly poorly in their equipment (because if players are rushing +6 items over a pair of +4 items then they are the source of their problems not the artisan).

Meanwhile, you're making the complaint that they are getting fun and quirky items in addition to the usual big six. So the two of you are commentating on a problem that is completely different. Yet more ironic still, the problem that you complain about flies in the face of the #1 complaint about magic items and WBL seen throughout 3.x and that is that you cannot have cool quirky magic items that do things besides give +X buffs without being underpowered (such as if making the choice between a carpet of flying or a cloak of resistance the cloak is going to win out most every time because not having it is asking to die much easier).

Your complaint sounds less like a complaint against item creation and more like a complaint about how the game changes as it progresses. It just sounds like item creation is getting the blame. Instead of learning to adapt as a GM and realize the game changes as it progresses and magic items are acquired, your answer is to lament that the game changes at all from your comfort zone. This refusal to acknowledge what is true within the game and to learn from it only leaves people with both a feeling of bewilderment when you encounter something new prepares them to make knee jerk reactions and unfair judgments readily.

In both cases neither sound like problems with item creation but instead problems (real or otherwise) with other areas of the game that you're associating with item...

Wrong. You completely missed the point of my post. The most potent items are those that allow for new capabilities, not the ones that simply amp up your current ones. This allows for new options during the game.

Seriously, you really need to read my posts more closely.

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