Full BAB.
WIS replaces STR for attack roll and damage bonus with Flurry of Blows and Monk weapons.
4th Level Ki Strike is Magic, Cold Iron, and Silver.
7th Level Ki Strike is Lawful.
10th Level Ki Strike is Adamantine.
16th Level Ki Strike is Epic.
Done?
If no,
Hit Die D10.
Any other ideas?
Recover all Ki in 1 hour of meditation, as many times per day equal to CON bonus. Ki is nowhere near as powerful as spellcasting, so let it be abundant.
Like that!
Recover all Ki in 1 hour of meditation, as many times per day equal to CON bonus. Ki is nowhere near as powerful as spellcasting, so let it be abundant.
Wouldn't it be easier to change the number of points in a monk's ki pool to equal 1 per monk level + Wisdom modifier, rather than the 1/2 per monk level + Wisdom modifier which they have now?
Generally speaking the suggestions are way too powerful for many builds and way too weak for others. Some core problems with the Monk class are also not being addressed.
My hearing must be getting better because I think I hear Dabbler coming.
1 hour is a LONG time in the common adventuring environment. Look at meditating 3+wis mod times per day for 1 hour each. For your typical monk that's blowing at least 5 hours out of the day.
My suggestion is any meditation recovery mechanic shouldn't take more than 5 minutes, 10 at the very most.
The voice of power creep if ever I read one.
1 hour can...
- write a level 1 spell to a spellbook
- write two level 0 spells to a spellbook
- prepare arcane spells for the day (or fill some-to-all unfilled slots you left empty if you're a wizzy who tries to remain flexible)
- pray for spells as a cleric
- half-craft a magic item that takes 2 hours, such as a level 0-2 scroll or a level 1 potion.
- cast legend lore with the item/object at hand (10-40 minutes)
There are lots of things a PC can do that takes 1 hour or so. 1 hour of meditation is hard to reliably secure in a dungeon filled with wandering monsters for some tables, or in a pitched battlefield, but in most adventures I've played, with multiple GMs, with multiple gaming groups, for almost 30 years, getting an hour now & then in the adventuring day is far from a rarity.
Looking up at the revised mods, I see power creep is infecting things badly. Throwing more and more abilities at a class, without considering the problematic consequences, will just turn a weak class into a must-have-because-its-better-than-the-competition class. Are we fixing the monk or building a god class based on the monk?
Revised Monk Hotfixes 1.4
- Full BAB.
- Add WIS modifier to attack roll and damage bonus when using Flurry of Blows in addition to STR modifier.
- Add WIS modifier to attack roll and damage bonus when using Unarmed Strike in place of his STR modifier. Only apply the STR modifier to Unarmed Strike during Flurry of Blows (see rule above).
- Add Elemental Fist and all Style feats to list of bonus feats.
- Uses WIS modifier in place of his STR modifier when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense. This modifies the AC Bonus and replaces Maneuver Training.
- At 3rd level, gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat.
- Number of points in ki pool equal to monk level + WIS modifier.
- Recover 1/2 of total ki points by meditating for 15 minutes. A monk can do this a number of times per day equal to 1 + WIS modifier.
- Slow Fall does not require a wall to function.
- Wholeness of Body heals 1d8 points of damage + WIS modifier. For every addition ki point spent, the number of d8s increase by one (2d8 at 3 ki points, 3d8 at 4 ki points, etc).
- Ki Strike is Magic, Cold Iron, and Silver at 4th Level.
- Ki Strike is Lawful at 7th Level.
- Ki Strike is Adamantine at 10th Level.
- Ki Strike is Epic at 16th Level.
My main objective is to reduce the Monk's dependency on STR, as I see this as one of its blatant design flaws.
Kyrt-ryder & Malignor, I'm keeping the mediation time at 15 minutes. 1 hour is still too painful for this ability, especially considering it only gives you half your total ki points. I also dropped it down to 1 + WIS modifier to help with power creeping and abuse.
How does everything else look?
My main objective is to reduce the Monk's dependency on STR, as I see this as one of its blatant design flaws.
As a martial artist, and as a long time martial arts fan, I find your approach odd. High STR is supposed to be mega important for any grappler or striker.
The 75 lbs, 100 year old master type character isn't about punching through concrete or putting ogres in submission holds. They win by subtle joint locks or pressure points or cool tricks like the death touch (a la vibrating palm). That may be your WIS+STR for CMB, but WIS+STR+FullBAB+BonusFeats makes for the strongest maneuver character with minimal investment; it's free, out of the box. I find that unbalancing. Maybe instead, just create some Monk bonus feats which can be chosen, and allow for such effects? This way you don't have one class doing more damage, hitting more often, and outperforming in CMB, every warrior class, for free.
There's also the immersion-threatening factor of a 4th level monk's kick in the face acting as a replacement for a silver bullet versus a werewolf or vampire. That may be a personal thing tho
Proposed Monk Hotfixes 1.5
- Full BAB.
- At level 5, can opt to use WIS modifier to attack rolls and CMB instead of the usual STR for melee & CMB, or DEX for ranged. This does not affect CMD as the Monk AC bonus already does so implicitly (it behaves like a dodge bonus).
- Add Elemental Fist and all Style feats to list of bonus feats.
- Number of points in ki pool equal to monk level + WIS modifier.
- Recover 1d4 ki points by meditating for 15 minutes. A monk can do this a number of times per day equal to 3 + CON modifier. (I chose CON because WIS already affects how much Ki you get, and because this kind of meditation is about internal alchemy, much like a dragon's breath)
- Slow Fall does not require a wall to function.
- Ki Strike is Magic, Cold Iron, or Silver at 4th Level. The monk can change which DR is overcome by spending 1 Ki as a standard action, or can select 2 DR types, lasting a number of rounds equal to 1+CON modifier, by spending 2 Ki as a full round action (which does not draw an AoO)
- Ki Strike is Lawful at 7th Level.
- Ki Strike is Adamantine at 10th Level.
- Ki Strike is Epic at 16th Level.
Malignor, the design flaw I was referring to is the fact the Monk must rely on WIS, DEX, STR, CON, and INT, where most other melee classes only depend on three (STR, DEX, CON for fighters and barbarians. STR, CON, CHA for paladins). My solution drops the Monk's dependancy down to three (WIS, DEX, CON). Your solution increases the reliance on CON and does nothing to alleviate the STR issue. As WIS is so crucial to a number of Monk abilities, I feel it makes sense to just replace STR with WIS.
Your concern about the monk hitting harder is unfounded. A fighter with a STR of 16 and a Monk with a WIS of 16 would hit each other with equal force, they would just be pulling their power from different sources. The only time a monk would have the advantage is during Flurry of Blows, when he adds his STR and his WIS to attack and damage. Putting it on par with a barbarian's Rage ability.
Malignor, I believe you miss read the CMB changes.
It is WIS modifier replaces STR modifier.
NOT WIS modifier in addition to STR modifier.
I really like where this is going, you guys are on to something. Keep the hotfix going.
Revised Monk Hotfixes 1.6
Malignor, realized my stupidity earlier. I agree with you that the meditation should be CON based.
Also changed Wholeness of Body, making it CON based as well and lowering the additional healing value to prevent power creep.
Finally, I removed Silver quality from Ki Strike. This was as much a thematic choice as it was mechanical. Feys and Demons, both chaotically aligned creatures, have DR/ cold iron. Devils and other lawfully inclined creatures have DR/ silver. Ergo, cold iron harms chaotic, silver harms lawful. Monks would hone their abilities to harm Demons and Fey. On a practical level, monks shouldn't be able to hit everything for free.
Normal Combatants can hit everything for free by a certain level, due to how Enhancement Bonuses (which are already virtually required anyway) interact with DR.
I didn't realize enhancement bonuses for weapons were free. That saves us all a lot of gold.
Generally speaking the suggestions are way too powerful for many builds and way too weak for others. Some core problems with the Monk class are also not being addressed.
My hearing must be getting better because I think I hear Dabbler coming.
I think you're hearing things because I don't see him.
Oh and yes the pounce ability is whats really going to give you that boost you need to actually make use of your mobility and the ability to flurry with whatever you want and the wisdom modifier on attack and damage.
It's the weekend, give it some time! Let the thread get long enough and still be about Monk fixes.
Kyrt-ryder, its a thematic based mechanical choice. Monks are lawful. Creature with DR/ silver are usually lawful as well. That was my logic. I do not see it breaking the monk's overall functionality, so I see no reason to change my decision. I also apologize for being snarky in my earlier response.
It's the weekend, give it some time! Let the thread get long enough and still be about Monk fixes.Generally speaking the suggestions are way too powerful for many builds and way too weak for others. Some core problems with the Monk class are also not being addressed.
My hearing must be getting better because I think I hear Dabbler coming.
I think you're hearing things because I don't see him.
Oh and yes the pounce ability is whats really going to give you that boost you need to actually make use of your mobility and the ability to flurry with whatever you want and the wisdom modifier on attack and damage.
You mentioned earlier there were core problems I was missing. Has our most recent attempt addressed those issues? If not, what are they?
However, one thing we might be doing wrong here, is doing this 'treated as material' bit at all.
That to me, says the Monk's Body should start as a Masterwork Weapon, and gradually advance into a Magic Weapon of varying power, which would save a lot of gold (and a neck slot) for those Monks who chose the unarmed path.
Accorded to the CRB "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons" which would allow for enhancements to the body as if it was a manufactured weapon. Of course, this still requires gold.
That said it makes no mention of whether Unarmed Strike begins as masterwork, something I always just assumed.
Are you suggesting a system similar to the Paladin's Divine Bond or the Magi's Arcane Pool? Because I don't know how far that would tip the scales of the classes power. Something to consider though, especially the Arcane Pool model.
Revised Monk Hotfixes 1.7
Kyrt-ryder, I included masterwork quality to unarmed strike and a progressive enhancement system based on the Magus, but specific only to unarmed strike.
Everyone else, is this new ability functional or OP?
I like the masterwork quality for unarmed strike, this really separates the monk from the unarmed fighter. Great ideas so far, keep them coming.
Yes, you are right that weapon enhancements bypass DR, however the Ki Strike qualities are permanent so long as the monk has at least one point of ki, where the proposed weapon enchantments only last one minute. I'm considering the ki strike qualities by innate, similar to the masterwork quality, which would further differentiate the two abilities. The weapon enhancement bonuses would be a short term ki burning solution. The ki strike qualities would be a permanent expression of the monk's training.
There's a prestige class in Champions of Ruin for 3.5 Forgotten Realms called a Thayan Gladiator, it allows the pc to imbue his natural weapons with cold iron, adamantine, silver and magic. They can even imbue their natural weapons with weapon enhancements. Just throwing that out there for reference.
Revised Monk Hotfixes 1.8
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Generally speaking the suggestions are way too powerful for many builds and way too weak for others. Some core problems with the Monk class are also not being addressed.
My hearing must be getting better because I think I hear Dabbler coming.
What me? Damn, I'm getting predictable.
OK, at first glance...way too much, to complex. It's a big list of suggestions, in effect, but all together I think they may go too far. Also, way to complex. Paizo are not going to introduce this mass of fixes, ever. First rule of this is Keep It Simple.
First off, MAD: the monk is MAD, no mistake, and making wisdom the key attribute is a good idea, but you can't go too far on it without rendering strength-built monks effectively obsolete, and there are a lot of them out there. Also, it's a one-level dip to strengthen divine casters a lot.
My suggestion: Wisdom bonus is used as the bonus to hit (not damage) with monk weapons and unarmed strike, and for maneuvers in place of strength. This is as pretty much as much as a divine caster can get in a feat anyway, so there's no need to dip. Because you still need strength for damage, it's not obsolete, but is less essential. The monk goes from a two high, two moderate attribute score class, the monk is a one-high, three moderate attribute score class.
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Second off, penetrating DR: Rather than having DR bypassing by type, why not make the monk the master of punching through DR? It's in line with the archetypal, mythical monk shattering objects and punching through armour. It also gives the monk a special feature other combat classes do not have, that they can be the 'hurt anything' guy.
My suggestion: For every level of monk, the monk can reduce the DR or hardness of any target they strike by 1, to the monk's unarmed strike. So a 5th level monk ignores the first 5 points of any DR they encounter, not just a certain type of DR. Now dishing massive damage is less essential because you will damage what you hit more easily.
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Third off, accuracy and the enhancement issue: Let ki-strike make the monk's attack actually enhanced, not just virtually enhanced. It does not ignore the amulet of mighty fists, but compliments it at the same time as making it less essential.
My suggestion: At 4th level, ki-strike gains the monk a +1 enhancement bonus to hit with his unarmed strike. This increases to +2 at 7th level, +3 at 10th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 16th level. Or we could go with Vindicator's system for enhancement, which I quite like as well. Either way lets the monk hit more frequently, with enhancement on a level with other combat classes, but doesn't overdo it or make the AoMF obsolete as a source of special properties.
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Other issues: These are peripheral issues, but they are issues that can help. My main reason for not messing with them too much is simply to keep the number of changes minimal.
Weapon Proficiencies: I'd add all monk-type weapons to the monk's weapon proficiencies.
Bonus feats: I like the idea of adding Style feats and Elemental Fist.
Wholeness of Body: The issue with this is that it's not really a lot of use in combat, and a potion is just as good out of combat. I'd add a facility to recover negative levels and lost attribute points as well as just hit points.
Overall, I'd like to see ki-powers along the qinggong monk's line, but I think that's too major an overhaul.
I briefly mentioned it in another thread, but I think the following would be a fun idea. They are religious and meditative, so why not:
Monks get the "Domains" class feature as a cleric of their level. This gives them access to the Domain power(s).
You might also let them cast a single bonus spell per day from the domains bonus spell list.
Revised Monk Overhaul
Dabbler, thanks for the suggestions. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "all monk-type weapons" though. Do you mean weapons for UC and APG? And, I guess hotfix was never the right word, as I'm more than willing to do an overhaul of the monk for my game.
Ewww, spending a ki point (and a swift action) just to ignore piddling Damage Reduction? and only for one round at that?? No thanks ^_^
In my research, I found full Monsters with DR 5/- even at the highest level. My assumption is unspecified DR (DR #/-) rarely exceeds 5, thus it is not piddling. It in fact negates the most troublesome of all DR. It is the anti-Barbarian clause.
Wisdom to-hit alone isn't bad, especially in concert with ignoring DR and Hardness(brilliant idea on that one Dabbler.)
Just so. Wis-to-hit helps reduce MAD by just enough to help the monk get by and have just ONE key stat. That key stat makes his stunning fist a little better (he hits a little more accurately, the save DC is a little higher), without vastly improving him elsewhere.
The DR bypass is a thematic thing for monks that really could work very nicely. If you look at the other combat classes, they have a type of foe that they are effective against, or a set of circumstances where they excel (even the fighter, who fights best against everything with his favourite weapon). This gives the monk his own 'thing' that makes him useful to the party.
As for the real enhancement bonuses, I already beat you to that one Dabbler ;) but I do concur it's a good idea. Personally I would extend it to wielded Monk Weapons (as an alternate enhancement bonus in the same way as bows and arrows, meaning the better bonus counts), but maybe allowing the use of a ki point to apply it for 1 minute or similar might not be a bad compromise. My one problem with all the ki stuff is the monk's swift action has been getting pretty cramped of late.
I don't see the need to apply it to monk weapons. You can get enchanted monk weapons just fine, they are not an issue.
Not sure exactly what to do with Wholeness of Body, but making it actually matter would certainly be a good thing.
EDIT: contrasting it against Lay on Hands, which is a lower level ability, draws from an independent pool of uses and can be used on others if desired, 2 HP per monk level as a swift action for 1 ki point seems pretty reasonable.
1 ki point as a swift action for the user's choice of 2 hp/monk level, monk level ability damage, or 1/2 monk level ability drain / negative levels might be appropriate? Maybe 1 ki point as a standard action or 2 ki points as a swift action.
The problem with wholeness of body as a swift action is that the monk has a LOT of demand for swift actions: Using ki powers, assuming a Style stance, etc makes the economy appalling. Originally I did consider using the lay-on-hands mechanic - except, it didn't work. For the paladin, a swift action to heal mid-combat is cool, he has nothing else save one or two spells to spend his swift actions on. For the monk, who has to choose between a +4 AC boost to avoid taking damage for a round or healing a few HP, it's a tough choice. More often than not, the AC boost is worth more, and an ability you never use is an ability that need changing.
On the other hand, giving added utility to wholeness of body that makes it useful is something that could see use. Rather than just healing hit points, if it can restore the monk physically and mentally in all ways, THEN it's very useful indeed, and once again gives the monk added utility against certain foes that other classes would fear.
Dabbler, thanks for the suggestions. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "all monk-type weapons" though. Do you mean weapons for UC and APG? And, I guess hotfix was never the right word, as I'm more than willing to do an overhaul of the monk for my game.
I mean all weapons of the type "monk". As opposed to the weapons monks are proficient in, which are currently two separate groups. The real slap in the face is that an unarmed fighter archetype IS proficient with all monk weapons, while the monk himself is not. This is what I would change.
Well, consider that addressed in the next overhaul. How do you feel about the other changes made?
@Vindicator
These revisions look very good, I especially like the ki abilities. The fact that I can replenish my ki a few times per day is going to be awesome.
OK, going through this point by point:
Full BAB.
I don't think this resolves much, and it's a big change for the class where Paizo have indicated they will only make tweaks.
At 1st level, Unarmed Strike is considered a masterwork weapon, providing a +1 bonus to attack rolls. It can also be given enhancements as a manufactured weapon.
You do not need this change AND the ki ability to self-enhance. Choose one, ditch the other. personally I think giving the monk a better weapon at 1st level is too much, and this is the one I'd drop.
Add WIS modifier to attack rolls when using Flurry of Blows in addition to STR modifier. This bonus only applies if the monk is using Unarmed Strike or a monk weapon.
Add WIS modifier to attack rolls when using Unarmed Strike in place of his STR modifier. Only apply the STR modifier to Unarmed Strike during Flurry of Blows (see rule above).
Too good, especially when combined with the free masterwork weapon. Make it wis or strength, but both combined? No. Just look at what a monk with high strength, high wisdom and Dragon Style could do. Overpowered.
Use WIS modifier in place of his STR modifier when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense. This modifies the AC Bonus and replaces Maneuver Training.
I have no problem with Wis replacing Strength for hitting and maneuvers.
At 2nd level, Unarmed strike is always considered Magic for the purpose of overcoming DR. Unarmed strike is always considered Cold Iron at 4th level, Adamantine at 7th level, Lawful at 10th level, Epic at 13th level for the purpose of overcoming DR.
I don't see why it needs to be earlier than currently placed. I confess, I do prefer my own approach to beating DR, though!
Add Elemental Fist and all Style feats to list of bonus feats.
Gets my vote; I would amend to ensure that Style feats have to be gained in sequence, though.
At 3rd level, gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat.
Why? The Greater maneuver feats still require 13 Intelligence. Just make the Greater maneuver feats available as monk bonus feats at a higher level, cut the need for Combat Expertise completely.
Number of points in ki pool equal to monk level + WIS modifier.
Sounds reasonable to me. Ki is already a scarce resource.
Recover 1/2 of total ki points by meditating for 15 minutes. A monk can do this a number of times per day equal to 1 + CON modifier.
Why? Your increased ki points along with existing monk vows already gives you parity with the bard and the barbarian, you don;t need to add more to this. Overpowered.
At 4th level, a monk can spend 1 ki point to grant his unarmed strike or monk weapon a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every three levels beyond 4th, the monk can spend an additional ki point to gain another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 16th level. This bonus stack with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5.
See my comments above. I do like this approach, it's one I'd be happy to use, though I would prefer a simple ki-strike enhancement to hit.
At 4th level, a monk can spend 1 ki point to ignore 1 point of unspecified DR with his unarmed strike for one round. For every three levels beyond 4th, the monk can ignore 1 additional point of unspecified DR, to a maximum of 5 at 16th level.
Again, this is double-covering the same problem that you are addressing in ki-strike with the bypass to specific DR types - plus enhancement covers this as well! Too much, choose one or the other.
Slow Fall does not require a wall to function.
Saves some hastle, though slow fall still sucks.
Wholeness of Body allows a monk to heal his own wounds as a swift action. He can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level + CON modifier by spending 2 ki points. A monk may also heal 1 + CON modifier points of ability damage by spending 2 ki points. This is a standard action. Finally, a monk may restore 1 negative level or 1 point from an ability drain by spending 4 ki points. This is a full-round action.
See my comments about economy of swift actions - this still leaves wholeness of body as an ability that will hardly ever see use in combat.
Revised Monk Overhaul 2
Dabbler, thank you again for the critiques. Wholeness of Body is still tricky. I went with the idea of condition removal is free with healing, and recovery ability drain, ability damage, and negative levels can also be done for additional points, all at the price of one swift action. Too much? Not enough? Perfect? Wrong direction? or Right Track?
I would also like to point out one thing...
Why? The Greater maneuver feats still require 13 Intelligence. Just make the Greater maneuver feats available as monk bonus feats at a higher level, cut the need for Combat Expertise completely.
Actually, after looking up all the Improved and Greater maneuver feats that require Combat Expertise, I found that none require INT 13. Only Combat Expertise itself does. However, I added "even if he does not meet the requirements" to the text to cover the bases.
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zax Monk Hotfixes:
0) keep BAB and HD as is!
1) Proficiency: all simple and monk weapons
2) Skill Points: 6
3) Unarmed Strike: 1d6 damage (frozen)
4) Bonus Feats: include Weapon Finesse, Weapon Zen, Style feats (sequential), and Elemental Fist
5) Maneuver Training: calculate both CMB and CMD with both ST and DX
5) Maneuver Training: maneuvers suffer no penalty to strike from sustained AoO damage
5) Maneuver Training: at 3rd/8th/13th/18th, treated as one size larger if foe is too
6) Ki Pool: 1 ki for +20 speed
6) Ki Pool: 1 ki for full flurry as a standard action
6) Ki Pool: DR bypass equal to half monk level while ki 1+
6) Ki Pool: +1 enhancement while ki 1+; +1 every 3 levels (max +5)
6) Ki Pool: auto-trigger +4 to dodge AC 1 round whenever ki is spent
7) Wholeness of Body: drop to 0 ki for full HP recovery (swift)
8) Tongue of the Sun and Moon: gained at 7th level instead