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It has come to my attention that Tieflings (Option #16) can trade their spell-like abilities to wield large size weapons (like a redcap that uses the same exact language) like they were one size larger.
"You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty."
So with the use of a feat, what is the best strength build weapon to get?
Off the top, I am thinking a huge size Falcata if that is possible now.
Yes I take -2 to hit, and use it with two hands (was going to only do that any way).
Not sure about weapon stats, but if I am correct that would be: 3D6 19-20/x3
P.S. Please not next post. Can't do huge only large.
Huge sized falcata isn't large-sized, so you would incur penalties normally. It also doesn't change the handedness issue, so a huge falcata would be a three-handed weapon (1H medium -> 2h large -> 3h/unusable huge), thus impossible to wield on a medium character.
titan mauler barb can only one-hand an appropriately sized (medium) two-handed weapon.
the 'biggest' you could wield would be a large "bastard" weapon (bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, sun blade, etc.) as a two-handed weapon, and a huge sun blade as a two-handed weapon (since it's equal to a shortsword in handedness it goes light medium -> one-handed large -> two handed huge). the large "bastard" weapons wouldn't incur any penalties with the tiefling ability.
EDIT: i notice i neglected to say that a large falcata would be fine. thanks for bringing that up seranov.
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AndIMustMask you maybe correct, as the ability specifically says large weapons, so I am stuck with a large weapon.
HOWEVER Seranoy, as mentioned with the redcap:
OFFENSE
Speed 60 ft.
Melee Medium scythe +10 (2d4+10/×4), kick +4 (1d4+6)Heavy Weapons (Ex)
A redcap can wield weapons sized for Medium creatures without penalty."
You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.
So I guess I am stuck with a large weapon. What would be the best.
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Any medium creature can already use Large weapons. BUT they take penalties because they're inappropriately sized. The Tiefling can get around that penalty, using Large weapons as if they were not inappropriately sized. THAT is what the alternate Tiefling trait means.
If you're really interested in using a weapon that's too damn big, you can burn some feats to get Thunder and Fang, then use a Large Earthbreaker in two hands. 3d6 with an x3 crit modifier. Is it the best option? Hell no. But it's super cool.
If you don't want to bother with the long feat line, you can do Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe (there are people who will argue you don't need this, but I'm not going to get into that) and wield a Large Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe in two hands.
or a huge sun blade, if you wanna be cloud.
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or a huge sun blade, if you wanna be cloud.
Cloud? Who is that and what does he have to do with this?
But how would a huge sunblade work with this racial ability and a huge falcata not?
Both are huge, and as noted the racial ability specifically stats size large weapon (Obviously you would need to make that medium for small tieflings)
there is no rule anywhere wich would alow you to wield anything larger than Large sized weapons and only 1 handed large sized weapons can be wielded two handed.
i have been checking this out for a long time.
rules whise as a medium PC you can wield a huge dagger or a large sized bastard sword but thats it nothing bigger.
not even the titan mauler can wich is a specific archetype to wield larger sized weapons all he can do is wield a large bastard sword with no peneltys 2 handed if he had the exotic weapon proficientie
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Any medium creature can already use Large weapons. BUT they take penalties because they're inappropriately sized. The Tiefling can get around that penalty, using Large weapons as if they were not inappropriately sized. THAT is what the alternate Tiefling trait means.
If you're really interested in using a weapon that's too damn big, you can burn some feats to get Thunder and Fang, then use a Large Earthbreaker in two hands. 3d6 with an x3 crit modifier. Is it the best option? Hell no. But it's super cool.
If you don't want to bother with the long feat line, you can do Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe (there are people who will argue you don't need this, but I'm not going to get into that) and wield a Large Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe in two hands.
Ah you can't use a Earth breaker in two hands with that feat, as the Thunder and Fang requires the Kalar to be in the other hand. So the most you could do was make it one handed.
Ah you can't use a Earth breaker in two hands with that feat, as the Thunder and Fang requires the Kalar to be in the other hand. So the most you could do was make it one handed.Any medium creature can already use Large weapons. BUT they take penalties because they're inappropriately sized. The Tiefling can get around that penalty, using Large weapons as if they were not inappropriately sized. THAT is what the alternate Tiefling trait means.
If you're really interested in using a weapon that's too damn big, you can burn some feats to get Thunder and Fang, then use a Large Earthbreaker in two hands. 3d6 with an x3 crit modifier. Is it the best option? Hell no. But it's super cool.
If you don't want to bother with the long feat line, you can do Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe (there are people who will argue you don't need this, but I'm not going to get into that) and wield a Large Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe in two hands.
this is not true:
Prerequisite: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.
it only states that you can use the earthbreaker as a 1 handed weapon
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or a huge sun blade, if you wanna be cloud.Cloud? Who is that and what does he have to do with this?
But how would a huge sunblade work with this racial ability and a huge falcata not?
Both are huge, and as noted the racial ability specifically stats size large weapon (Obviously you would need to make that medium for small tieflings)
Cloud Strife is the protag of one of the Final Fantasy games, and his massive sword is very iconic for many people.
The Huge-sized Sunblade works because the Sunblade is a Magic Bastard Sword that counts as a Shortsword for most things, including handedness. So when you increase it's size, the damage dice increase, but it's going from Light (1d10, Medium) -> One-handed (2d8, Large) -> Two handed (?d?, Huge). However, since the Shortsword is a Light weapon, it's actually considered sized for a Small character. So the size increase makes it sized for a Medium character, then a Large character, which would allow the alternate racial to work.
Ah you can't use a Earth breaker in two hands with that feat, as the Thunder and Fang requires the Kalar to be in the other hand. So the most you could do was make it one handed.Any medium creature can already use Large weapons. BUT they take penalties because they're inappropriately sized. The Tiefling can get around that penalty, using Large weapons as if they were not inappropriately sized. THAT is what the alternate Tiefling trait means.
If you're really interested in using a weapon that's too damn big, you can burn some feats to get Thunder and Fang, then use a Large Earthbreaker in two hands. 3d6 with an x3 crit modifier. Is it the best option? Hell no. But it's super cool.
If you don't want to bother with the long feat line, you can do Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe (there are people who will argue you don't need this, but I'm not going to get into that) and wield a Large Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe in two hands.
I thought the same thing, but that's wrong.
Thunder and Fang (Combat)
You have mastered the ancient Shoanti Thunder and Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon.
Emphasis mine.
or a huge sun blade, if you wanna be cloud.Cloud? Who is that and what does he have to do with this?)
No you just didn't! Google image search: Cloud FF7
Then slap yourself...
Then buy a PS1 and get your hands on a copy of FF7...
Then slap yourself again our of sheer gratitude that we were able to save you from going through the rest of your life without knowing who Cloud is...
Then find someone else (good luck with that) who doesn't know, slap them, rinse, and repeat the process...
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I don't even follow what you're asking there.
The racial trait for Tieflings states that you can wield Large weapons without penalty. This means you can use them without the -2 to-hit penalty for inappropriately sized weapons. Handedness has nothing to do with it, because either you CAN use a weapon of a given handedness, or you can't.
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there is no rule anywhere wich would alow you to wield anything larger than Large sized weapons and only 1 handed large sized weapons can be wielded two handed...Wait a tick here...
Melee Medium scythe +10 (2d4+10/×4), kick +4 (1d4+6)
...
Heavy Weapons (Ex) A redcap can wield weapons sized for Medium creatures without penalty.How does the small creature use a medium 2-H weapon if "without penalty" only applies to wrong-size penalties and not to handedness penalties?
I think this bestiary entry pretty much solidly establishes that "penalty" includes handedness increase for wielding a "too-large" weapon. So a Tiefling's "Oversized Limbs" ability, which uses the exact same phrase but swaps out Large for Medium, would logically operate the same. Thus, a Tiefling with Oversized Limbs can wield a Large 2-h weapon with no attack roll penalty and also still as a 2-h weapon. He could wield a Falcata as a 1-h weapon without attack penalty as well.
Its the same language, and without proper info that is the only other example of a similar ability, and uses about the same language. Yes I could use a large Falcata one handed. The problem is that this doesn't translate RAW as letting you use a huge weapon as if you were large.
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I don't even follow what you're asking there.
The racial trait for Tieflings states that you can wield Large weapons without penalty. This means you can use them without the -2 to-hit penalty for inappropriately sized weapons. Handedness has nothing to do with it, because either you CAN use a weapon of a given handedness, or you can't.
Redcap uses the same language which sets presidence for the ability enabling you to use, sets say, a large size great sword, even if you are medium size.
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I don't even follow what you're asking there.
The racial trait for Tieflings states that you can wield Large weapons without penalty. This means you can use them without the -2 to-hit penalty for inappropriately sized weapons. Handedness has nothing to do with it, because either you CAN use a weapon of a given handedness, or you can't.
Look at the entry for the Redcap. It is a small creature but it's equipped with a medium Scythe. A Scythe is a 2-h weapon so, for a small creature, you step up the handedness by 1; Scythe goes from 2-h to 'unwieldable'. So why is the Redcap listed in the Bestiary as having a Medium scythe that it can't wield? Because the 'handedness' penalty is also reduced along with removing the -2 penalty for wielding a weapon 1 size off.
Redcap's Heavy Weapons: "A redcap can wield weapons sized for Medium creatures without penalty."
Tiefling's Oversized Limbs: "You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty."Note how the language used in both is mechanically the same; using the phrase "without penalty". If Redcap's ability allows it, a small creature, to wield a 2-h medium weapon then the Tiefling's ability allows it, a medium creature, to wield a 2-h large weapon.
That is exactly how I read it.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4
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The language is not the same. The second does not say "tieflings can used weapons sized for Large creatures without penalty". It say you can use a Large weapon without penalty. A great sword is a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature. Your tiefling can use a weapon of the same handedness a size category larger, meaning a Large longsword in one hand that deals 2d6 damage, or a Large greatsword (two hands, only one size category up for 3d6 damage). You can't use a Huge falcata because a falcata is a one-handed weapon. You still have to pay a penalty to wield a Huge falcata even in two hands, and that penalty gets pretty steep: wrong handedness and another -2 because the size. Both penalties stack and count becuase the rule doesn't say anything about wielding Huge weapons or reducing penalties for size or handedness, just as the red cap can't then use a Small scythe in one hand.
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The language is not the same. The second does not say "tieflings can used weapons sized for Large creatures without penalty". It say you can use a Large weapon without penalty. A great sword is a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature. Your tiefling can use a weapon of the same handedness a size category larger, meaning a Large longsword in one hand that deals 2d6 damage, or a Large greatsword (two hands, only one size category up for 3d6 damage). You can't use a Huge falcata because a falcata is a one-handed weapon. You still have to pay a penalty to wield a Huge falcata even in two hands, and that penalty gets pretty steep: wrong handedness and another -2 because the size. Both penalties stack and count becuase the rule doesn't say anything about wielding Huge weapons or reducing penalties for size or handedness, just as the red cap can't then use a Small scythe in one hand.
The point of the redcap is that it refers the hand-ness as a penalty and with an example. So it makes it clear that if you can say:
"You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty."Then this would have to be the same penalty referred to in the redcap description making it possible for a medium size tiefling to wield a large greatsword.
Simple: Redcap SHOWS that handed-ness IS a penalty. Thus tiefling ability includes handed-ness as penalty as well.
You can't deny that. You can say that the ability is incomplete or not accurate/a mistake, all you want, but then your statement is neither RAW or RAI via examples.
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If your DM rules that it works how you want it, fine. But that's not how it's intended to work for players. The Redcap is an exception to the rule, not proof of it.
You're ALSO not supposed to be able to just say "I want Racial Option #16" either. You have to roll for it. Another reason this whole discussion is mostly theorycraft.
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If your DM rules that it works how you want it, fine. But that's not how it's intended to work for players. The Redcap is an exception to the rule, not proof of it.
You're ALSO not supposed to be able to just say "I want Racial Option #16" either. You have to roll for it. Another reason this whole discussion is mostly theorycraft.
"Players with a particular character concept in mind may consult their GM if they want to select a specific variant ability..."
Plus the PFSRD is outdated in this instance. The feat is no-longer a requirement.
Edit: Also in this case, we have provided proof. You just can't call something names and expect it to stick. Provide proof that the rules are not the rules.
You CANT wield a Large Greatsword. The core rules are never over written all it allows you to do is wield large weapons with no penalties it does not say you can wield weapons you normally couldn’t wield.
It means if you want to wield a large longsword you would not have to take penalties if you wield that 2 handed or if you would like to wield a large dagger as a 1-handed weapon.
This has been discussed to death even the writers have to admit that the TITAN MAULER specifically designed to wield larger sized weapon does not over write the rules on larger sized weapon only those that you can wield are going to give less penalties.
A large bastard sword if you have ex. W prof. would be at a -2 and a huge dagger would be at -4 but a titan mauler could negate those penalties and wield those weapons 2 handed.
This has been discussed to death!
Just accept the fact that you are never going to wield anything larger than a large sized bastard sword which is amazingly large already. (Like the buster sword) and if you get enlarge person those 2d8 become 3d8 but that is IT!
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You CANT wield a Large Greatsword. The core rules are never over written all it allows you to do is wield large weapons with no penalties it does not say you can wield weapons you normally couldn’t wield.
It means if you want to wield a large longsword you would not have to take penalties if you wield that 2 handed or if you would like to wield a large dagger as a 1-handed weapon.
This has been discussed to death even the writers have to admit that the TITAN MAULER specifically designed to wield larger sized weapon does not over write the rules on larger sized weapon only those that you can wield are going to give less penalties.
A large bastard sword if you have ex. W prof. would be at a -2 and a huge dagger would be at -4 but a titan mauler could negate those penalties and wield those weapons 2 handed.
This has been discussed to death!
Just accept the fact that you are never going to wield anything larger than a large sized bastard sword which is amazingly large already. (Like the buster sword) and if you get enlarge person those 2d8 become 3d8 but that is IT!
*cough
Impact Enchant (Gargantuan Damage)
*cough
But nobody wants to accept such rulings because they completely flip off the players who want to play such a concept.
Redcaps even prove that the game allows creatures to wield weapons wherein the handedness becomes impossible.
Also, somewhere on these boards, the designer of the Titan Mauler explained his intention WAS to allow a medium creature to wield a large two-handed weapon without penalty.
Yes this was the designer of the Titan mauler writer his intentions where to allow to wield larger sized weapons but it never got approved by the people who printed the books. if you want to do it just talk to your DM ask him what he thinks and go with that but RAW it is not allowed. Your DM is GOD in all matters anyways if he will allow it I think the writer of the titan mauler even wrote a slightly revised version on the forums how he would see it done but clearly states it isn’t official. The reason I know all this is I have spent considerable time in find a way to wield larger weapons myself and always came to the same conclusion. There is nothing what alters the core rules.
Do what you want as your GM alows it have fun. But it is not in line with the core rules.
The core rules alows you to wield a large 1 handed weapon two handed and a huge light weapon two handed That is it.
If you would get a permancy on Enlarge person then you would be able to step that one up and ultemetly wield a huge bastard sword or a gargantuan dagger, both two-handed.
You are wrong ......
Ps the bestiary is not a grounds to change pc rules
So... if you are unable to skirt around the "hands needed" part, what is the advantage of a trait like this? To simply give you more options of what weapons you can pick up?
Mechanically, why would I want to use a Large Scimitar as a Medium creature instead of just picking up a medium Katana? The damage and crit ranges are the same, but the large Scimitar (w/o this trait) would give me a -2 on attack. The only advantage would be if I already had Weapon Focus/Specialization, Weapon Training, or any other feat(s) that apply to a named weapon.
I can't use any Large 2-handed weapon as a Medium creature, as per "handedness".
This type of adjustment can't even apply to a Crossbow since that, as a ranged weapon, isn't categorized as Light or 2-handed to begin with. (so no ballista-wielding Tiefling, but you could bust out a Large Double-Barreled Pistol...)
So that leaves exotic melee weapons (and thus requires a feat).
A Large Falcata would step up to 2d6 (from 1d8) with a 19-20/x3. Add Impact/Lead Blades and it would be 3d6. Add Enlarge Person and it becomes ?4d6?. {Ave. Dmg: 4.5->7->10.5->14)
A Large Bastard Sword would step up to 2d8 (from 1d10) with a 19-20/x2. Add Impact/Lead Blades and it would be 3d8. Add Enlarge Person and it becomes ?4d8?. (Ave. Dmg: 5.5->9->13.5->18)
So the damage definitely ramps up by going as far as possible with this, but is ~4.5 damage worth the trait? Is it worth paying extra for the weapons, adding the extra weight, being more conspicuous, etc? Flavor-wise, if it fits, it fits. I'm looking from a mechanics standpoint. Obviously if you intended on using a Bastard Sword or Falcata, this is a no-brainer, although it forces you to always 2-hand (enjoy those grapples). Otherwise...
Note that I'm not sure if Enlarge Person will work since the trait specifies "Large" weapons and not "weapons 1 size category larger than you". Also, being that there's no chart for weapon damage above huge (see this thread that I'm still trying to get responses on), I have no idea for sure what damage would be done if it did work.
The rules are clear, by RAW you cannot wield large handed two handed weapons.
Darkflame has it right. if you want to ask your GM. But as per the rules, you can't. you can mitigate the -2 pentality, but that's it.